Lidstrom for the Hart?

[awingsincebirth 0]

Hello everyone, Im a brand new member to LGW, although I've been trolling around as a guest all season and I decided to take the plunge. I'm lovin the way we've been playing this year and I hope we can keep it up.

So here's what I have to say.

Nick Lidstrom is undisputably the greatest defenseman of his generation, arguably 2nd or 3rd on the all-time list. 4 or 5 Norrises (I can't remember the exact number at the moment), a Conn Smythe and 3 Cups. Realistically, there is only one trophy missing from his collection.

Pros:

-With the numbers he's been putting up this year - leading the league in +/-, top five in the league in assists, and leading all defensement in scoring as the quarterback of a team excercising more dominance than any other team in recent history - you have to think he's in the running.

-Add to that the fact that Sid has all but been taken out of the running with his injury and Vinny's team sucks a lot of ass, that takes away a couple of the big names and gives Lids even better odds.

-I've got to wonder if the fact that (especially if Chris "Closeted Homosexual" Pronger was able to win one) he's getting near the end of his "Hart Worthy" career and he has yet to win one might influence some of the voters.

Cons:

-The fact that he plays on a team with two of the league's top 6 scorers, the goalies with the two best goals against averages in the league, 6 of the top 10 +/- players in the league, and has the 2nd leading defenseman scorer as his partner takes away some of the credit from him. (Even though it shouldn't)

-I tend to think that its a lot more difficult for a defenseman to win the award in general as it seems to be more forward biased.

-Ovechkin has been lights out this year, and if he can get his team into the playoffs, he'll be very tough to beat in the race for the Hart. Plus, I think the league would absolutely love to give it to AO. (For the record, I'm a huge Ovie Fan)

So there it is. As far as current candidates I think you have Lids, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Iggy, maybe Alfredson (did I miss any?), you may even be able to put a Z or Dats as long shots.

In my mind there is know question who the best, most valuable player in the league is, and thats Lidstrom. Even for all the awards and accolades he's won I think he is still underappreciated throughout the league. I think that, based on what we've seen so far this season, he should be the Hart winner, but I just don't think its very likely. What are your guys' thoughts?? Do you think he deserves it? Do you think he has a real shot?

(I know individual awards aren't that important, but its still cool to wonder. Sorry about how long it is.)

[HomeNugget 2]

your first two cons are the reasons he won't win it.

[Rice 42]

I think he has a good chance of winning this year. I bet it will be between him, Ovechkin, and Luongo. Luongo or Ovechkin will probably win if the Canucks or Capitals make the playoffs, though.

[dallas27 7]

Vancouver isn't in the hunt for the playoffs if they don't have someone named Luongo.

[BeeRYCE 2]

- Lidstrom is the reason our team gets 15-20 shots against per game.

- Lidstrom is the reason that Rafalski is having his best season yet.

- Lidstrom is on pace for the best +/- total in over 10 years.

So many factors come into play here. I think his only downfall is lack of goal scoring, but if he nets over 10 goals this year, it shouldn't be an issue. I am not a biased person, but from a hockey fan's perspective, he should take it. The team is dynamite, and when it all comes down to it, he's a good reason.

[awingsincebirth 0]

- Lidstrom is the reason our team gets 15-20 shots against per game.

- Lidstrom is the reason that Rafalski is having his best season yet.

- Lidstrom is on pace for the best +/- total in over 10 years.

So many factors come into play here. I think his only downfall is lack of goal scoring, but if he nets over 10 goals this year, it shouldn't be an issue. I am not a biased person, but from a hockey fan's perspective, he should take it. The team is dynamite, and when it all comes down to it, he's a good reason.

I agree entirely. This is Lid's team, and he is the engine that drives us.

Also, I knew I was forgetting someone, Bobby Lou is a monster and he has a real good shot at it. He was my preseason pick for the Hart.

[LIDDYGIBBY5 1]

The reason Nick won't win is because the league seems to think that the NHL has casual fans like all of the other major professional sports leagues in North America. They believe that young studs are the way to go. Their philosophy is to keep cramming a few names down the throats of those casual fans ( that don't really exist) in order to make them die hard fans. Crosby and Ovechkin are the only players in the world who matter to NHL and sports writers who cover the NHL because it is an assignment they hope to use as a stepping stone.

Edited February 3, 2008 by LIDDYGIBBY5

[irishtemper14+25 11]

im just saying that not many award givers like the wings...AO will win it if washington makes the playoffs because he has something like 35% of their goals or something rediculous

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I agree entirely. This is Lid's team, and he is the engine that drives us.

Also, I knew I was forgetting someone, Bobby Lou is a monster and he has a real good shot at it. He was my preseason pick for the Hart.

Yeah, Nick is the best dman in the league but you pointed it out yourself. The team is the best in the league. That has alot to do with Nick but frankly, nobody in the league has as much support as Nick Lidstrom does.

The Hart is given to the player most valuable to his team, judged over all of the 30 teams. Now, it could be argued that Nick is the most valuable player to the Wings. Just like it could be argued Marian Gaborik is the most valuable player to the Wild. But that doesn't make them the most valuable in the league. I think his value pales in comparison to that of Luongo's in Vancouver and Ovechkin's in Washington.

An easy way to look at it would be to imagine the Caps without AO or the Nucks without Luongo.

Now, imagine the Wings without Lidstrom.

In my mind, the Canucks would be vying with the Kings for the 2nd worst record in the league. And the Caps would have the absolute worst record in the league locked up.

The Wings would probably still be first in the Central division even without Nick.

That's why he won't win the Hart or the Pearson.

What he will win is his 6th Norris, hands down.

IMO, the Caps get into the playoffs, the Hart is AO's no doubt. Even if the Nucks make it in.

If the Caps don't but the Nucks do, probably Luongo gets it.

Nick could eek his way into the running but Iginla, Alfredsson and even Brodeur might be ahead of him already.

Sort of sucks for Nick that the Wings are so stacked but frankly, that's part of the MVP award, finding somebody who isn't on a stacked team who is carrying his team to new heights. Heights impossible to reach without that player.

[awingsincebirth 0]

Yeah, Nick is the best dman in the league but you pointed it out yourself. The team is the best in the league. That has alot to do with Nick but frankly, nobody in the league has as much support as Nick Lidstrom does.

The Hart is given to the player most valuable to his team, judged over all of the 30 teams. Now, it could be argued that Nick is the most valuable player to the Wings. Just like it could be argued Marian Gaborik is the most valuable player to the Wild. But that doesn't make them the most valuable in the league. I think his value pales in comparison to that of Luongo's in Vancouver and Ovechkin's in Washington.

An easy way to look at it would be to imagine the Caps without AO or the Nucks without Luongo.

Now, imagine the Wings without Lidstrom.

In my mind, the Canucks would be vying with the Kings for the 2nd worst record in the league. And the Caps would have the absolute worst record in the league locked up.

The Wings would probably still be first in the Central division even without Nick.

That's why he won't win the Hart or the Pearson.

What he will win is his 6th Norris, hands down.

IMO, the Caps get into the playoffs, the Hart is AO's no doubt. Even if the Nucks make it in.

If the Caps don't but the Nucks do, probably Luongo gets it.

Nick could eek his way into the running but Iginla, Alfredsson and even Brodeur might be ahead of him already.

Sort of sucks for Nick that the Wings are so stacked but frankly, that's part of the MVP award, finding somebody who isn't on a stacked team who is carrying his team to new heights. Heights impossible to reach without that player.

I see exactly what your saying and I realize that this is the reason why (in all likelihood) Nick won't win the award.

I guess what I'm questioning is the level with which success is being judged. Yes, without AO and Luongo respectively, the Caps and Nucks would both be right in the basement. But because of those two players, the two teams will probably both finish with records that place them as bottom seeds in the playoffs. Detroit, on the other hand, may finish with one of the alltime great regular season records, but without Nick, this team would still probably finish near or at the top of the conference, but not nearly as dominantly.

My problem is that the MVP tends to be judged as that player that makes his weak- mediocre team into a mediocre-somewhat dangerous team. This is opposed to a player that makes his dangerous team into a very dangerous team. Am I making any sense here??

Ideally, you should simply look at the points a team finishes with and somehow compare that to the amount of points that a team would have had without that certain player (Obviously this is in no way possible). I honestly think that if you did that there would not be much of a difference between Lids-Detroit and Washington-AO. The only difference is that this same amount transforms Washington into a playoff team, whereas it only makes Detroit an even more dominant team than they already are.

You see what I'm saying?

[Dabura 12,232]

Not a chance in hell.

[norrisnick 1]

Yeah, Nick is the best dman in the league but you pointed it out yourself. The team is the best in the league. That has alot to do with Nick but frankly, nobody in the league has as much support as Nick Lidstrom does.

The Hart is given to the player most valuable to his team, judged over all of the 30 teams. Now, it could be argued that Nick is the most valuable player to the Wings. Just like it could be argued Marian Gaborik is the most valuable player to the Wild. But that doesn't make them the most valuable in the league. I think his value pales in comparison to that of Luongo's in Vancouver and Ovechkin's in Washington.

An easy way to look at it would be to imagine the Caps without AO or the Nucks without Luongo.

Now, imagine the Wings without Lidstrom.

In my mind, the Canucks would be vying with the Kings for the 2nd worst record in the league. And the Caps would have the absolute worst record in the league locked up.

The Wings would probably still be first in the Central division even without Nick.

That's why he won't win the Hart or the Pearson.

What he will win is his 6th Norris, hands down.

IMO, the Caps get into the playoffs, the Hart is AO's no doubt. Even if the Nucks make it in.

If the Caps don't but the Nucks do, probably Luongo gets it.

Nick could eek his way into the running but Iginla, Alfredsson and even Brodeur might be ahead of him already.

Sort of sucks for Nick that the Wings are so stacked but frankly, that's part of the MVP award, finding somebody who isn't on a stacked team who is carrying his team to new heights. Heights impossible to reach without that player.

The Wings are on pace to finish 23 points ahead of the 2nd best team in the league. At some point the MVP of a team that dominant needs to be recognized ahead of a player barely eeking his team into the playoffs.

Lafleur won the Hart in '77 on the most dominant team in league history (Robinson finished 5th, Big Bird also won the Norris with two teammates in the top 5). Granted he also won the scoring title, but the way Nick is running away from the pack in the Norris race it's comparable.

[Dabura 12,232]

At some point the MVP of a team that dominant needs to be recognized ahead of a player barely eeking his team into the playoffs.

Which is 100% correct.

But it's no secret that the eyes of the hockey world are on Crosby and Ovechkin. If we're talking veterans, Iginla would get the nod long before Nick. Deservedly? No. But this isn't a meritocracy.

[LeftWinger 5,152]

...I don't see why he wouldn't get some votes...

...The Wings could have many awards. Why not Zetterberg for Hart? Why all know Datsyuk for Bing, maybe Selke? Babcock for Adams, Lidstrom and Rafalski up for Norris and how much consideration would Osgood get for Vezina if he finishes with 25-30 wins and still leads the league in GAA? He'd have to get some, right?

[Doggy 130]

Lidstrom should win the Hart because he is the best player in the world and has been the most valuable player to his team in the NHL in 2008. To me it makes sense.

Unfortunately, I'm in the minority.

[SweWings 45]

If Ovie hits 60 goals and the Caps make the play-offs there is no way he won't win it.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Nick Lidstrom is the best hockey player in the world. There is every stat and reason imaginable he should win the Hart Trophy, EVERY season.

That being said, there is hardly any chance Nick wins it this year or ever. A forward or goalie is almost always going to win the award. Either AO or a healthy Alfredsson will win the Hart.

[Guest Crymson]

Is this the year?

Seriously, though: if Lidstrom keeps up this pace, he'll be a +75 or so by season's end with ~75 points. That's Hart material, through and through.

OP: It is worth noting that Zetterberg, Datsyuk and the rest have Lidstrom to thank for their high +/- ratings as much as he has to thank them for his own. His play in the defensive zone and in the offensive zone reduces goals against and increases goals for.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I see exactly what your saying and I realize that this is the reason why (in all likelihood) Nick won't win the award.

I guess what I'm questioning is the level with which success is being judged. Yes, without AO and Luongo respectively, the Caps and Nucks would both be right in the basement. But because of those two players, the two teams will probably both finish with records that place them as bottom seeds in the playoffs. Detroit, on the other hand, may finish with one of the alltime great regular season records, but without Nick, this team would still probably finish near or at the top of the conference, but not nearly as dominantly.

My problem is that the MVP tends to be judged as that player that makes his weak- mediocre team into a mediocre-somewhat dangerous team. This is opposed to a player that makes his dangerous team into a very dangerous team. Am I making any sense here??

Ideally, you should simply look at the points a team finishes with and somehow compare that to the amount of points that a team would have had without that certain player (Obviously this is in no way possible). I honestly think that if you did that there would not be much of a difference between Lids-Detroit and Washington-AO. The only difference is that this same amount transforms Washington into a playoff team, whereas it only makes Detroit an even more dominant team than they already are.

You see what I'm saying?

I get what you're saying and maybe the league should look at it differently.

But since they don't the status quo will probably stick.

In the end, what's more believable of the 2

That the Wings could win a cup without Nick

or

That the Caps could make the palyoffs without AO

Tough call

[gowingsgo 3]

If the media acknowledges his +/- and defensive prowess, then he should get some play. Its hard for a defender to win when a guy goes off for 50-60 goals. At the very least he should get another Norris.

I will settle for another Stanley Cup and Conn Smythe trophy for Nick than the Hart, just my preference

[Earthhuman 8]

...I don't see why he wouldn't get some votes...

...The Wings could have many awards. Why not Zetterberg for Hart? Why all know Datsyuk for Bing, maybe Selke? Babcock for Adams, Lidstrom and Rafalski up for Norris and how much consideration would Osgood get for Vezina if he finishes with 25-30 wins and still leads the league in GAA? He'd have to get some, right?

Don't forget the Jennings for lowest cumulative GAA.

[DenJ91 0]

not a tough call at all. the wings could possibly win the cup without lidstrom. not extremely likely cause lids might go down as the best defensman ever, BUT without ovechkin, the caps might as well go play in the AHL.

ovechkin is the mvp this year in my opinion whether the caps make the playoffs or not. he's amazing.

[wingsfan40 0]

He has my vote! (not that it counts )

[egroen 384]

Because of the slant towards forwards and goalies (since the Norris trophy was created), you will have to see a combination of two things happen:

1) If no one breaks 100 points like when Pronger when the Hart -- then they will start looking at defensemen. Injuries to Crosby and Alfredsson helps him there.

2) Points (almost) like Coffey, Bourque or Orr -- If Lidstrom is right up there with the leaders in assists (top 3) he might win it.

So it probably will not happen. Despite the fact he is the hockey best player in the world.

[Kira 451]

Unfortunately Nick will not get the Hart, even though he deserves it. Not as long as everyone thinks Ovechkin and Crosby are the gods of the game.

I also would love to see Pasha win the Selkie, but again, that probably won't happen either.

Artists are never appreciated in their own time.