A case for #91 in the rafters?

[adamic 0]

He left. He screwed us. Did you forget that? If he would have stayed and kept playing at a high level, maybe.

[wingedone 0]

When I go and look at the tapes of the 1997. 1998, and 2002 playoffs and how Feds played his butt off, I am still amazed at his tenacity and skill.

Put it up there, he deserves to be remembered as an integral part that brought Stanley back to Detroit.

[egroen 384]

He played centre for the Leafs but also played other positions in Detroit when needed. He did not ONLY play D. If some pleb in Australia like me knew this, surely you guys did too.

He was used as a forward occassionally on the power play for the Red Wings (or when there were forward injuries)... but obviously not enough for him to not be considered one of the greatest defensemen of the time. His game was a lot like Lidstrom's: very cerebral. Ironically, he was a golden gloves boxer, but rarely used it on the ice.

Edited October 16, 2008 by egroen

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Fedorov vs Draper.[/b] Draper has spent most of his time in Detroit as a defensive specialist playing the same or lesser quality defense than Fedorov was playing at the same time. Both have always been lightning-quick skaters, and Fedorov's offensive ability and physical strength while having the same speed and defensive skills really sets him apart from a guy like Draper. Draper has spent most of his time in Detroit as a third or fourth line grinder...Fedorov spent his entire career in Detroit as a first or second line forward while playing both on the power play and the penalty kill due to his amazing two-way abilities. Draper will never even get a sniff of jersey retirement, and everyone but cracked out Draper fans know it.

Eva, you are such a tool. I say that in a nice way.

I mean c'mon. Draper has been a fantastic defensive forward forever. Do you realize when you throw these little, bulls*** comments into your posts. Do you seriously think people will just read it and accept it.

Why disparage Draper. Anybody in hockey will tell you he's been one of the best defensive forwards for a decade. Why is it necessary to make a statement that he only played the same or "lesser" defense than Fedorov. There's no substance behind that statement.

Give me a friggin' break. You'll say anything to try and make a case for your love child Feds.

Oh, and by the way, since we're comparing players to Fedorov.

Draper = tenure with the Wings

Draper = never signed offer sheet TO WILLINGLY LEAVE DETROIT RED WINGS (talk your way out of that one Casanova)

At the end of the day, pissed off Fedorov fans like yourself are just going to have to suck up your pride and come to grips with the FACT that nobody whose opinion matters wants 91 hanging from the rafters. Find a way to friggin' cope with that s*** already. This is getting so old.

Edited October 16, 2008 by GordieSid&Ted

[egroen 384]

Retiring Draper would open the rafters up, however... unlike Fedorov.

Osgood would go up for sure. Holmstrom has an equal case with Draper and Maltby is not far behind. Hell, we would probably be hearing McCarty's jersey should be retired. Draper should definitely be an "Honored Member" of the alumni association, which is actually pretty exclusive company if you care to look at the members and quite an honor in its own right. --- Sorta reminds me of the exclusive "7 Timer" club for hosts of Saturday Night Live (if you have ever seen that one).

Edited October 16, 2008 by egroen

[eva unit zero 271]

Red Kelly actually played pretty much every position. Except goal. Dunno where you heard otherwise.

Ok, I'll rephrase for clarity. He did not play D outside of Detroit.

[union drone 0]

Why doesn't anyone make a case for Ebbie Goodfellow?

1) Played only for Detroit (1929-1943)

2) Won Hart trophy in 1940

3) Was a first team all-star on multiple occasions

4) Was a key player on Detroit's Stanley cup wins in 1936, 1937, and 1943.

5) Was the last NHL player to win the cup as a player-coach in 1943, after which he retired.

6) Hall of Famer since 1963.

Probably because no one remembers him.

Edit: corrected a fact, Wings won in 1943, not 1940.

Edited October 16, 2008 by union drone

[egroen 384]

Why doesn't anyone make a case for Ebbie Goodfellow?

I agree with you... Aurie and Goodfellow would be excellent representatives of Detroit's early Cups.

Aurie

Goodfellow

Kelly

There is no doubt in my mind those guys should be in.

[eva unit zero 271]

I mean c'mon. Draper has been a fantastic defensive forward forever. Do you realize when you throw these little, bulls*** comments into your posts. Do you seriously think people will just read it and accept it.

Why disparage Draper. Anybody in hockey will tell you he's been one of the best defensive forwards for a decade. Why is it necessary to make a statement that he only played the same or "lesser" defense than Fedorov. There's no substance behind that statement.

Give me a friggin' break. You'll say anything to try and make a case for your love child Feds.

Oh, and by the way, since we're comparing players to Fedorov.

Draper = tenure with the Wings

Draper = never signed offer sheet TO WILLINGLY LEAVE DETROIT RED WINGS (talk your way out of that one Casanova)

Fedorov was a Selke nominee his second season in the league. Fedorov was ahead of Draper in Selke votes his last year with the team. I don't think there is a year in history that Draper received more Selke votes than Fedorov when the two played on the same team.

Draper has been a very good defensive forward for a long time. But he didn't get serious Selke consideration until Yzerman's knee was really causing him trouble skating and Fedorov had left.

Fedorov in 1997 was the league's best player. He signed an offer sheet when it was put to him more than halfway through the season. And you know what? The offer was for less than his market value. Fedorov signed a contract for LESS THAN HIS MARKET VALUE. And this was AFTER HOLDING OUT ALL SEASON because the Wings wouldn't offer him a reasonable contract. I am all for cheering on the crest on the front over the name on the back...but realistically, what the hell was going on there?

Honestly, I don't care if Fedorov's number gets retired. I think he deserves it, but will it break my heart if it doesn't happen? No. I guess I'm not that emotionally invested in the fate of whether a player's number is retired, especially when that player is still playing in the NHL and could therefore potentially change the argument.

Oh, and btw...no Wings player has ever had their jersey retired who didn't start their career with the Wings. This knocks off Draper and Shanahan, as well as Chelios.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Fedorov was a Selke nominee his second season in the league. Fedorov was ahead of Draper in Selke votes his last year with the team. I don't think there is a year in history that Draper received more Selke votes than Fedorov when the two played on the same team.

Draper has been a very good defensive forward for a long time. But he didn't get serious Selke consideration until Yzerman's knee was really causing him trouble skating and Fedorov had left.

Fedorov in 1997 was the league's best player. He signed an offer sheet when it was put to him more than halfway through the season. And you know what? The offer was for less than his market value. Fedorov signed a contract for LESS THAN HIS MARKET VALUE. And this was AFTER HOLDING OUT ALL SEASON because the Wings wouldn't offer him a reasonable contract. I am all for cheering on the crest on the front over the name on the back...but realistically, what the hell was going on there?

Honestly, I don't care if Fedorov's number gets retired. I think he deserves it, but will it break my heart if it doesn't happen? No. I guess I'm not that emotionally invested in the fate of whether a player's number is retired, especially when that player is still playing in the NHL and could therefore potentially change the argument.

Oh, and btw...no Wings player has ever had their jersey retired who didn't start their career with the Wings. This knocks off Draper and Shanahan, as well as Chelios.

I'm sure Fedorov did get more votes. Although you should admit to the fact that the voting has always been skewed towards forwards who can score as well. Draper wasn't much of a scorer and you know and I know that has played a major influence on how the voting has gone. I don't need the screwed up voting system, to which we all agree has been screwed up forever...i don't need that to tell me Draper is/was every bit as good as any forward in the league the past 10 years at playing defense. Votes, schmotes, the selke voting has almost never been applied properly.

For the record, i'm not clamoring for anybody but Lids to have their number retired. A case can be made for Fedorov and certainly, IMO a case can be made for Ozzie, Draper and even Homer depending upon how they finish up their careers. Doesn't matter to me if none of them end up with the honor.

[HomeNugget 2]

Why doesn't anyone make a case for Ebbie Goodfellow?

1) Played only for Detroit (1929-1943)

2) Won Hart trophy in 1940

3) Was a first team all-star on multiple occasions

3) Was a key player on Detroit's Stanley cup wins in 1936, 1937, and 1940.

4) Was the last NHL player to win the cup as a player-coach in 1943, after which he retired.

5) Hall of Famer since 1963.

Probably because no one remembers him.

Detroit didn't win a Stanley Cup in 1940, and Jack Adams coached every wings game from 27'-28' through 46'-47'. I agree though, it should have been retired. I believe he wore number 5 though, so it will be up in the rafters before too long.

[union drone 0]

Detroit didn't win a Stanley Cup in 1940, and Jack Adams coached every wings game from 27'-28' through 46'-47'. I agree though, it should have been retired. I believe he wore number 5 though, so it will be up in the rafters before too long.

That's a typo on my part. I typed 1940 and should have typed 1943. I fixed the typo. Thanks.

As for the player-coach info, I got it from here:

click here

Perhaps the Wings had both a coach and a "player-coach" at that time, although that seems a bit strange. Anyone with more information?

Edited October 16, 2008 by union drone

[union drone 0]

I agree with you... Aurie and Goodfellow would be excellent representatives of Detroit's early Cups.

Aurie

Goodfellow

Kelly

There is no doubt in my mind those guys should be in.

As long as we're discussing old-timers, how about Jack Stewart:

1) three-time first team and two-time second team all-star on defense

2) key contributor to Wings' cups in 1943 and 1950

3) Inducted into Hall of Fame in 1964

4) considered one of the most punishing defensemen of his era

5) Rated #97 in The Hockey News' top 100 players of all time.

Not as much of a case for him as with Goodfellow, and also didn't play all of his best years for the Wings, but still a case could be made.

[egroen 384]

As long as we're discussing old-timers, how about Jack Stewart:

"Black" Jack Stewart

A player like him should be in before the secondary cup-contributors of this generation, but much better cases can be made for Aurie and Goodfellow -- I really think those early Cup teams deserve some representation in the rafters. Syd Howe is another guy that should warrant consideration, but again, not before Aurie and Goodfellow.

The 50s dynasty team marks the best chapter in Wings history, and they should be well represented in the rafters: Howe, Sawchuk, Lindsay, Abel and Delvecchio all deserve to be up there -- and so does Red Kelly (weird that he is not). But they make up over 80% of the names currently in the rafters, which ignores a lot of other Red Wings greats over the years.

The latest team should see Yzerman, Lidstrom, Fedorov and possibly Osgood go up - good and accurate representation. But those early teams are really lacking, and I would love to see the Illitches honor them.

Edited October 16, 2008 by egroen

[betterREDthandead 58]

Put it up there, he deserves to be remembered as an integral part that brought Stanley back to Detroit.

Agreed....but why does it have to be in the form of a retired number? I think people have this notion that if the number isn't retired, then the player remains 100% unhonored and forgotten. Fedorov can be honored in other ways, like, isn't there a Hall of Fame in the Joe with plaques and such? Retiring a number should IMO be the absolute pinnacle of honor. It's not as if you either retire the number or forget the guy entirely.

[sagnam 0]

egroen now has 8 numbers. That's the box I'm talking about.

[FedorovGurl 2]

Agreed....but why does it have to be in the form of a retired number? I think people have this notion that if the number isn't retired, then the player remains 100% unhonored and forgotten. Fedorov can be honored in other ways, like, isn't there a Hall of Fame in the Joe with plaques and such? Retiring a number should IMO be the absolute pinnacle of honor. It's not as if you either retire the number or forget the guy entirely.

Sigh...

I have to agree.

And no one loves Fedorov more than I (hence the name). He will always be one of my favorite Red Wings of all time but I think retiring numbers should be reserved for players who were truly extraordinary or it starts to mean less and less.

(Oh and if Shanahan's number ever hangs there, you will find me hanging on a noose right next to it!)

[egroen 384]

egroen now has 8 numbers. That's the box I'm talking about.

Aurie

Goodfellow

Kelly

I would put those three up right now - do you disagree with any of them? They have nothing to do with Fedorov.

Lidstrom

Fedorov

Should be the next ones.

I think retiring numbers should be reserved for players who were truly extraordinary or it starts to mean less and less.

What is not "truly extraordinary" about Fedorov's time in Detroit?

Howe, Lidstrom, Kelly, Lindsay and Yzerman are probably the only better Red Wings in history.

Edited October 16, 2008 by egroen

[DenJ91 0]

hey everyone i'm back!! been a while since i've been on this forum. hello to my friends again

now, do you really need me to chime in on this? i don't think so, i've been there done that, but i might just get tempted too. haha. it's probably the 100th time this topic has been started and i'm guilty of creating one last season.

OF COURSE, feds should have his # retired, and if you can't figure out why you have problems. you gotta leave the departure thing aside and simply go by what he's done and only a couple have done more in the history of this great hockey team.

[Barrie 900]

Eva, you are such a tool. I say that in a nice way.

I mean c'mon. Draper has been a fantastic defensive forward forever. Do you realize when you throw these little, bulls*** comments into your posts. Do you seriously think people will just read it and accept it.

Why disparage Draper. Anybody in hockey will tell you he's been one of the best defensive forwards for a decade. Why is it necessary to make a statement that he only played the same or "lesser" defense than Fedorov. There's no substance behind that statement.

Give me a friggin' break. You'll say anything to try and make a case for your love child Feds.

Oh, and by the way, since we're comparing players to Fedorov.

Draper = tenure with the Wings

Draper = never signed offer sheet TO WILLINGLY LEAVE DETROIT RED WINGS (talk your way out of that one Casanova)

At the end of the day, pissed off Fedorov fans like yourself are just going to have to suck up your pride and come to grips with the FACT that nobody whose opinion matters wants 91 hanging from the rafters. Find a way to friggin' cope with that s*** already. This is getting so old.

Eva's comments were harmless. If this was another franchise (Toronto or Montreal, or the New York Yankees ) Draper may be considered for number retirement.

It a tough call, it's nice to see numbers retired and our favorite players honored, but it's good to see a franchise like Detroit keep it elite. As I mentioned, if standards weren't as high as they are, the Wings could have 16 numbers in the rafters within the next 15 years.

[Barrie 900]

hey everyone i'm back!! been a while since i've been on this forum. hello to my friends again

now, do you really need me to chime in on this? i don't think so, i've been there done that, but i might just get tempted too. haha. it's probably the 100th time this topic has been started and i'm guilty of creating one last season.

OF COURSE, feds should have his # retired, and if you can't figure out why you have problems. you gotta leave the departure thing aside and simply go by what he's done and only a couple have done more in the history of this great hockey team.

If it happens I wonder what fan reaction will be? Fedorov could be the only player to ever has his number retired and be booed during the ceremony.

[DenJ91 0]

omg, eva unit zero and gordiesid&ted are still arguing, wow i haven't missed anything! haha

[egroen 384]

If it happens I wonder what fan reaction will be? Fedorov could be the only player to ever has his number retired and be booed during the ceremony.

It is obviously a ways away... and I doubt it will be Mike Illitch who has his jersey retired. If his jersey went up 15 years from now I doubt there would be many people booing.

[eva unit zero 271]

So let's break this down.

Teams that are among the league's best for an extended period and win multiple championships should see significant representation. The 50s Cup teams are part of a greater era of Wings teams that won 5 Cups and made 15 Finals appearances in 21 seasons from 1940-41 to 1965-66. Extending back further by seven years, we have 18 Finals appearances and 7 Cup wins in 28 seasons spanning three separate Cup era teams.

Longevity counts. Obviously, with Detroit, starting with the franchise counts.

Being a good player as a Wing counts. Championship wins also apparently count.

So we'll start by saying that the best homegrown player from a championship-era team is a candidate for retirement. After that, each 'additional' championship won by the same era team (comprised primarily of the same core players and/or won within a couple seasons of the previous championship) allows consideration of an additional number of players from that era team equal to Cups won as a maximum number.

We'll consider extended 'non-Cup' greatness later, but this would mean that the Wings would be able to retire up to 11 numbers from the respective teams. We'll break it down into the eras and who the most deserving homegrown players on the teams are. I'll list, in numerical order, deserving players (up to the "Cup wins" maximum) from the Cup era teams.

1936-37: #5 Ebbie Goodfellow, #6 Larry Aurie

1943: #12 Sid Abel

1950-52-54-55: #1 Terry Sawchuk, #7 Ted Lindsay, #9 Gordie Howe, #10 Alex Delvecchio

The 2008 Cup team is pretty clearly defined as a separate era. The 2002 team was still comprised primarily of core players from the 97 and 98 teams, with a couple of high profile additions tacked on to the existing core of the team, rather than replacing the core or rebuilding the team around them. However, I am going to refrain from rating who would earn the 'current' spots as players from all four recent Cup teams are still on the roster and many have potential to alter such a list. I will say that Yzerman and Lidstrom are locked in for the first two spots, with #30 Osgood, #91 Fedorov, #13 Kozlov, #13 Datsyuk, #40 Zetterberg, #96 Holmstrom, #33 Draper, and #55 Kronwall the active players I can think of offhand who are potentially capable of shifting into or out of the discussion.

#2 Jack Stewart, #4 Red Kelly, and other great players mentioned here would have to rely on allowing further numbers due to the team's extended periods of greatness between championships which I alluded to earlier.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

hey everyone i'm back!! been a while since i've been on this forum. hello to my friends again

now, do you really need me to chime in on this? i don't think so, i've been there done that, but i might just get tempted too. haha. it's probably the 100th time this topic has been started and i'm guilty of creating one last season.

OF COURSE, feds should have his # retired, and if you can't figure out why you have problems. you gotta leave the departure thing aside and simply go by what he's done and only a couple have done more in the history of this great hockey team.

Whether you want to admit it or not thats a big deal in determining who gets the highest honor in Detroit.

TBH, I like BRTD's idea of having a Red Wings Hall of Fame in the Joe which honors players such as Fedorov. The guy 100% deserves to be recognized for what he did for the Red Wings, but retiring his number in Detroit is in question. IMO, if its even in question it means they shouldn't have their number retired.