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Kwame_Kilpatrick

will wings retire fedorov's 91?

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How do you figure any of this?

First, regarding Dino

608 goals 16th ALL TIME. Only 17 players have ever accomplished that feat.

1200 points 45 ALL TIME. Only 45 players have ever reached 1200

Mike Gartner had an impressive 708 goals but what else did he do? He doesn't have the personal accolades either. So essentially Gartner got into the HHOF by scoring 700+ goals and by having longevity. But Dino can't get in because he only amassed 600+ goals and had longevity. I guess 600 goals is something to scoff at these days.

Neither of those guys rocked the world with personal accolades. 1 guy is in and 1 isn't. I believe all the other 600 goal guys are in already and Shanahan and Sakic will be.

It's just your opinion but I disagree. Dino has and continues to be black-balled from the HOF because of his on "issues".

I do not doubt those "issues" have a bearing, but "issues" have not kept others from getting in. I am not contesting Dino had an excellent career (though no Cup, which will almost always keep a marginal guy out) and compiled some great stats - but that is only one part of the equation. Ciccarelli was never a league leader at his position and was never even a 2nd team all star. In goals, he only cracked the top 10 twice in his entire career.

But you are right, I have a feeling w/o the personal issues, Dino might be in -- the problem is he was not good enough to overlook them, like many were.

Many are not too happy with Gartner being in, but it is easy to make a case for him over Dino (more goals in his career and top 10 in goals five times vs. Dino's 2). Gartner at least made Canadian Cup teams - never Dino.

Look at the guys not in yet, and tell me who Ciccarelli should be ahead of:

Steve Yzerman

Brett Hull

Luke Robitaille

Brian Leetch

Mark Howe

Adam Oates

Sergei Makarov

Doug Gilmour

JC Tremblay

Rick Middleton

Tom Barrasso

Ron Hextall

Rogatien Vachon

John Vanbiesbrouck

Mike Vernon

Theoren Fleury

Andy Moog

Alexander Mogilny

Paul Henderson

Pete Mahovlich

Pavel Bure

Dave Andreychuk

Vincent Damphousse

Mike Richter

Phil Housely

Pat Verbeek

Rick Martin

Ken Hodge

Doug Wilson

Next year he'll have these guys to contend with as well:

Petr Bondra

Sean Burke

Eric Lindros

Scott Mellanby

Joe Nieuwendyk

Mike Ricci

Pierre Turgeon

Sure, you can argue he should be ahead of quite a few of those guys, but I bet even you will admit he is nowhere near the top.

As for Draper. It amazes me how people first and foremost believe you have to be a superstar to "define" the organization. Well if Kris Draper hasn't been defining what it means to be a Red Wing for the past 15 years then I say shame on them for calling themselves Red Wings fans.

Look, I am not Kris Draper slappy by any stretch of the imagination. But I believe in honor and loyalty and sacrificing for your team, teammates, organization and community. That's all Kris Draper has done during his career.

As for "opening up the rafters" by mentioning Draper.... How so?

Clearly, of anybody who ever played on the Grind Line, Draper was the best, most versatile and most used player. McCarty was a fighter who scored a couple of big playoff goals and beat up Claude Lemieux. All while having alcohol problems and spending time with Calgary. You telling me he amounts to Draper?

Maltby has the tenure and the loyalty and sacrifice thing going for him. IMO he's been a lifelong Wing. That means alot to me. But his value still pales in comparison to Draper's.

So who else would this be opening up the rafters to? How many guys we talking about here? Give me a list of the 1000+ games in a Red Wings sweater and 15+ seasons as a Wing as well as ending your career as a Wing. I want to see how much space I need to open the rafters up to.

Draper deserves to be an Honored Red Wing Alumni and inducted into the Red Wings Hall of Fame. I think that is quite an honor.

Take a good look at a lot of these guys, as many of them deserve to go up before Draper would:

http://www.redwingalumni.com/hallOfFameRedWings.html

Edited by egroen

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So who else would this be opening up the rafters to? How many guys we talking about here? Give me a list of the 1000+ games in a Red Wings sweater and 15+ seasons as a Wing as well as ending your career as a Wing. I want to see how much space I need to open the rafters up to.

From who is already in, I would say it is more important to start your career as a Red Wing than it is to finish your career as a Red Wing. Draper fails in that, and he'll also never make the Hockey Hall of Fame. Regardless, I don't think there should be any iron-clad "rules", but they can serve as a guideline.

I'll start it out --

Some guys that definitely deserve to have their jerseys retired before Draper:

Red Kelly

Larry Aurie

Ebbie Goodfellow

Syd Howe

Jack Stewart

Marcel Pronovost

Marty Pavelich

Norm Ullman

Marty Barry

Sergei Fedorov

Chris Osgood

Edited by egroen

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#91 should go up. There are a handful of numbers for the dynasty of the 50s. The modern era of greatness should be similarly honored, and the 3 most pivotal and defining players of the '97, '98, '02 Cup wins are Yzerman (already up), Lidstrom (will be up), and Fedorov, and no one else comes close.

There is a group of posters that say, "if there is any debate, there is no debate" but the reason there is any debate is because a sizeable chunk of the fanbase is acting like a bunch of jilted girlfriends that ritualistically torch every shred of evidence of the ex. Fedorov left, but he was helped out the door. Kenny deserves every bit as much scorn as Fedorov. He orchestrated the only contract negotiation I've ever seen where the offers from the team kept shrinking. And when people point to the 5 year $50M offer, you have to take into account that A. Fedorov was going through a messy divorce and thus wanted to postpone any negotiations because B. he was also in the process of firing his agent whom he blamed for part of his relationship troubles. Signing a contract while going through legal steps like that is a bad move. Sergei never saw a 5 year offer after that, until he signed the one from Anaheim.

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you can say the same thing about shanny and osgood... and yet some people think osgood should be retired. the fact is yzerman could not win without fedorov either, and feddy hasnt exactly played for any good teams since he left (except washington this year but he is now a role player). still 950 points is by far the best of the monder era beside yzerman for us that is a lot of points. in comparison sid abel and ted lindsay didnt even hit 800 points, and terry sawchuck helped out arch rival toronto win a few cups.

and anyone who says he didnt play for us for a long time, he only stayed on board for about ten years in an era where a star can bolt pretty much anywhere he wants. he was a luxury player but he was also skilled and was the best player whenever he played for us

Technically, he didn't stay on board (the Carolina contract) and couldn't bolt until signing with the Ducks as an UFA. He also new what he was getting into in signing with the Ducks as well. Not that I'm blaming him for the move, but you can't use being on a bad team as an excuse when it was free will to go there.

I want to say that the 2002 Cup and maybe even the 1998 Cup could have been one without them, but I don't have the crystal ball anymore, plus I was living overseas then.

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#91 should go up. There are a handful of numbers for the dynasty of the 50s. The modern era of greatness should be similarly honored, and the 3 most pivotal and defining players of the '97, '98, '02 Cup wins are Yzerman (already up), Lidstrom (will be up), and Fedorov, and no one else comes close.

There is a group of posters that say, "if there is any debate, there is no debate" but the reason there is any debate is because a sizeable chunk of the fanbase is acting like a bunch of jilted girlfriends that ritualistically torch every shred of evidence of the ex. Fedorov left, but he was helped out the door. Kenny deserves every bit as much scorn as Fedorov. He orchestrated the only contract negotiation I've ever seen where the offers from the team kept shrinking. And when people point to the 5 year $50M offer, you have to take into account that A. Fedorov was going through a messy divorce and thus wanted to postpone any negotiations because B. he was also in the process of firing his agent whom he blamed for part of his relationship troubles. Signing a contract while going through legal steps like that is a bad move. Sergei never saw a 5 year offer after that, until he signed the one from Anaheim.

:thumbup:

Agree, the sames been said before. We've all seen him score huge goals just like the one tonight for the Caps, scored by him for the Wings many times. I like your point about the "era's of greatness", which he was for his. Which was a great and long tenure, and should be treated as such.

C-TownWing Posted Today, 08:24 PM

With the game he's having right now, maybe Washington will retire it

nah, but he'll be the toast of the town tonight. :ph34r:

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Technically, he didn't stay on board (the Carolina contract) and couldn't bolt until signing with the Ducks as an UFA. He also new what he was getting into in signing with the Ducks as well. Not that I'm blaming him for the move, but you can't use being on a bad team as an excuse when it was free will to go there.

I want to say that the 2002 Cup and maybe even the 1998 Cup could have been one without them, but I don't have the crystal ball anymore, plus I was living overseas then.

It's not the crystal ball you're missing, unless of course your crystal ball acts as a bong as well.

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It's not the crystal ball you're missing, unless of course your crystal ball acts as a bong as well.

Not so much. So how was the donna key to winning those two cups? (Fairly serious because I really was living overseas then)

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Not so much. So how was the donna key to winning those two cups? (Fairly serious because I really was living overseas then)

By being Fedorov, primarily: an elite scoring threat that also happens to be one of the best defensive forwards in the game. In the same way Steve, Nick, or Shanny were essential in those Cup runs, so was Fedorov.

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By being Fedorov, primarily: an elite scoring threat that also happens to be one of the best defensive forwards in the game. In the same way Steve, Nick, or Shanny were essential in those Cup runs, so was Fedorov.

Shanny doesn't touch the other 3 in level of importance.

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The Red Wings are not the Canadiens.

Yup. And also Patrick Waaaaaaa is french-canadian so they love him there.

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I don't think the Wings will, especially not right away.

But, out of the current dynasty players, Feds is second most worthy behind Lidstrom.

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#91 should go up. There are a handful of numbers for the dynasty of the 50s. The modern era of greatness should be similarly honored, and the 3 most pivotal and defining players of the '97, '98, '02 Cup wins are Yzerman (already up), Lidstrom (will be up), and Fedorov, and no one else comes close.

There is a group of posters that say, "if there is any debate, there is no debate" but the reason there is any debate is because a sizeable chunk of the fanbase is acting like a bunch of jilted girlfriends that ritualistically torch every shred of evidence of the ex. Fedorov left, but he was helped out the door. Kenny deserves every bit as much scorn as Fedorov. He orchestrated the only contract negotiation I've ever seen where the offers from the team kept shrinking. And when people point to the 5 year $50M offer, you have to take into account that A. Fedorov was going through a messy divorce and thus wanted to postpone any negotiations because B. he was also in the process of firing his agent whom he blamed for part of his relationship troubles. Signing a contract while going through legal steps like that is a bad move. Sergei never saw a 5 year offer after that, until he signed the one from Anaheim.

It's perfectly clear that your loyalties lie with Sergei Fedorov and the Red Wings come second for you. Thanks for clarifying that for us.

Why should Holland receive any scorn? The best thing he ever did was not sign Fedorov to either one of those two ridiculous contracts. Right when the cap was coming in we'd have been stuck with a max cap player for the next 5 years, or 4 depending upon which contract he could've signed.

It was a blessing that he didn't get signed. I believe the cap hit would've been 7.6 million once it came into play. Would have been a terrible thing for this organization to have on the books, especially considering his age. He was one of the best in the league but he hasn't been since he left. We would've been paying him like 1 of the top 4 players in the league and he clearly was no longer.

And frankly, boo ******* hoo about his divorce and blah, blah, blah. You got the deal of a lifetime sitting on the table. Your personal problems are your own business. Sign the damn contract or don't but if it gets pulled off the table, well you snooze you lose.

I'm not a "jilted girlfriend" because I don't hate Fedorov. I appreciate everything he did, I don't boo him and I don't root against him succeeding. Conversely, like some other posters here, I don't get off to images of Feds either. I'm not blinded by my man love for him.

He was great when he was here. He ain't here anymore. Get over it. Find a new man crush already.

The topic is debatable. Hence why its always debated and hotly contested. You don't like that its debated so you just think the rest of us are acting like "jilted girlfriends" because we don't agree with you. We're not jilted anything. We just don't agree with you. Come to grips with it.

WINGS ORGANIZATION 1st. Man crushes on former players a distant, distant 2nd.

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It's perfectly clear that your loyalties lie with Sergei Fedorov and the Red Wings come second for you. Thanks for clarifying that for us.

..

end of this crap post

You just showed you know absolutely nothing about Fedorov's departure. :thumbdown:

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You just showed you know absolutely nothing about Fedorov's departure. :thumbdown:

HAHAHA! How so?

Because I don't care that Kenny pulled the 1st offer off the table.

Because I don't care about what was going on in his personal life.

Please explain to me what I "dont know" about his departure from the team. I was here smart guy. I know as much as anybody else here does about the circumstances. Most of which is speculative and heresay as to why he never signed the 5 year, 50 deal.

Please enlighten me as to what "i don't know".

It's not a matter of me not knowing why he left. It's a matter of me not giving a flying s*** that he left because IMO, the organization was better for it considering the amount of money and term that either of those contracts would've stuck us with.

Tell me what I am missing

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Because I don't care that Kenny pulled the 1st offer off the table.

Because I don't care about what was going on in his personal life.

...

It's even worse then. You know that the offer was changed and you do not care. I would say what you are but I would get banned for that. :rolleyes:

edit:

Also, you do know how Ted Lindsay left Detroit, right? And yet his jersey is up there. Fedorov was just as important as Lindsay to his team.

Edited by Reds4Life

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It's even worse then. You know that the offer was changed and you do not care. I would say what you are but I would get banned for that. :rolleyes:

edit:

Also, you do know how Ted Lindsay left Detroit, right? And yet his jersey is up there. Fedorov was just as important as Lindsay to his team.

I'm with GST on this one, rather than repeating anything he said, I'll just address your Ted Lindsay example. I think it is a poor one because Ted played 17 years in the NHL, the first 13 with the Wings, then 3 with the Blackhawks and came back to finish his final year with the Wings. Depending how much longer Sergei plays he will more than likely only played slighty over half of his career with the Wings. That combinded with everything GST said, and 91 being a cancer, I don't seem him deserving his number in the JLA rafters.

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It's even worse then. You know that the offer was changed and you do not care. I would say what you are but I would get banned for that. :rolleyes:

edit:

Also, you do know how Ted Lindsay left Detroit, right? And yet his jersey is up there. Fedorov was just as important as Lindsay to his team.

I pretty much agree with both sides -- The Wings would have been awfully top-heavy and shackled if Fedorov had signed that contract. Holland had every right to pull it back and Fedorov had every right to leave if he didn't like it. None of it takes away what Fedorov accomplished with Detroit, and it should have very little to do with whether or not his jersey is retired.

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I'm with GST on this one, rather than repeating anything he said, I'll just address your Ted Lindsay example. I think it is a poor one because Ted played 17 years in the NHL, the first 13 with the Wings, then 3 with the Blackhawks and came back to finish his final year with the Wings. Depending how much longer Sergei plays he will more than likely only played slighty over half of his career with the Wings. That combinded with everything GST said, and 91 being a cancer, I don't seem him deserving his number in the JLA rafters.

Yeah, Fedorov is a locker room cancer. Sure.

Lindsay - Fedorov is the perfect analogy. Fedorov spent his best years in Detroit, just like Lindsay. And while Lindsay is much better player, Fedorov was integral part of the Wings and he was better than Yzerman for some time too. He should get his number retired, he is a legend and one of the greatest players ever.

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Yeah, Fedorov is a locker room cancer. Sure.

Lindsay - Fedorov is the perfect analogy. Fedorov spent his best years in Detroit, just like Lindsay. And while Lindsay is much better player, Fedorov was integral part of the Wings and he was better than Yzerman for some time too. He should get his number retired, he is a legend and one of the greatest players ever.

Locker room cancer? Don't know, I never said that, and I've never been in the locker room with the Wings to see that. Practice reading comprehension. I absolutely think he qualifies as a cancer to the team as he held out pretty much the entire '97-'98 regular season. He did this because he was more concerned about financial gain than winning, his teammates, and playing the game he loves. Only to sign an offer with Carolina which put management into a situation where they had to match. I wouldn't want someone so self absorbed playing on my line. I wouldn't argue he's a great player, but there's more to getting your number retired than stat sheets.

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Locker room cancer? Don't know, I never said that, and I've never been in the locker room with the Wings to see that. Practice reading comprehension. I absolutely think he qualifies as a cancer to the team as he held out pretty much the entire '97-'98 regular season. He did this because he was more concerned about financial gain than winning, his teammates, and playing the game he loves. Only to sign an offer with Carolina which put management into a situation where they had to match. I wouldn't want someone so self absorbed playing on my line. I wouldn't argue he's a great player, but there's more to getting your number retired than stat sheets.

Which actualy makes the analogy to Lindsay even better - the whole point of Lindsay's fight was so players could earn more money, himself included. He was not a popular figure with owners, GMs, fans and even other players - who were happy to be earning a paycheck playing hockey at all, and thought it was disruptive to make a stink about it.

Fedorov was simply exercising that right Lindsay fought to give. Sure, it does not make him a legendary "team" guy like Yzerman, but Fedorov was a player who deserved to be amongst the league's best paid athletes.

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Locker room cancer? Don't know, I never said that, and I've never been in the locker room with the Wings to see that. Practice reading comprehension. I absolutely think he qualifies as a cancer to the team as he held out pretty much the entire '97-'98 regular season. He did this because he was more concerned about financial gain than winning, his teammates, and playing the game he loves. Only to sign an offer with Carolina which put management into a situation where they had to match. I wouldn't want someone so self absorbed playing on my line. I wouldn't argue he's a great player, but there's more to getting your number retired than stat sheets.

Whatever, that's just semantics. Fedorov is not a cancer in any way.

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