Wings MVP so far?

[VM1138 1,921]

Gotta give props to Cleary, but he's only elevated his play really the last few games. Franzen, Lidstrom, and Ozzie are the players that have performed game in, game out with the fewest mistakes and the best numbers.

Lidstrom is my vote, but he hasn't been flashy enough. Therefore most likely Franzen would get it.

[Guest Shoreline]

Is there any flagging goalie statistic that means anything? This is getting absurd now.

Nick Lidstrom doesn't play hockey by himself. All of his stats are in some way, shape or form tied to what everybody else is doing on the ice. Last time I checked, people around here didn't have "turnip" tattooed on their friggin' heads.

You give goalies no credit. We get it. You want Nick's love child. We get it.

And people wonder why Osgood gets no respect. It's because some Wings fans can't get their heads out of their asses. So why would we expect other folks to get smart.

PS: Children, what have we learned from Mrs. Reds4Life thus far? That GAA and Save percentage mean absolutely nothing. In fact, wins and for that matter, no goalie statistic has any worth whatsoever because they are all "team" stats.

But Nick Lidstrom plays hockey 1 against 6. There is no goalie in net for Detroit and no others skaters out there with him. He is solely doing it on his own. His stats are his stats alone and not a reflection of anybody else around him....like those silly goalie stats. Frankly, you could put Nick on a team that is 0 and 82, has a blind goaltender and every player is -40 or worse and Nick would still be +40! WOW!

As far as I know there's not "quality of shots faced" statistic. And if there were, who the f*** would be the judge of that? Oh lets see, you made 23 saves tonight. 3 of them were class 5 (toughest), 5 of them were class 4 saves (slightly difficult) and so on and what ever.

I'm ranting and losing my s*** because your comment about goalie statistics is so mind-numbingly stupid I can't control myself. I'm seeing Tom Cruise in my head right now when he's yelling at Demi Moore in A Few Good Men and telling her that we "shouldn't follow the advice of the galacticly stupid". that's what i'm thinking about you right now.

edited out some curse words.

Dude, I spent most of the second half of the season fighting back people who would try and find any statistical reason to bash Osgood.

There's a reason Ozzie is playing spectacular. Firstly, because he's confident, and secondly because the defense isn't hanging his ass out to dry the way they were during the regular season. A goalie will only bail a team out so much before decent chances kills them. No statistic will show how decent the chances are that a team gets. Yet in the same breath people can say how the Wings make every opposing goalie look good.. based on how many lame shots they take. So there's substantial amount of truth to the notion that Ozzie could not stop so many quality chances headed his way. Many people were just being retarded during the regular season, and you know how panicking is so ******* cliche nowadays.

Edit: As for the PK, this is also a team effort. Often times the Wings get caught chasing pucks, sometimes committing themselves too much, which frees up other players who can finish on a quality chance. Then there's many occasions where they are just lazy clearing the puck or don't put enough strength into guarding the front of the net or the boards.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Shoreline

[kook_10 1,705]

(GordieSid&Ted @ May 20, 2009 - 11:54AM)

well put. i agree. the Wings have been slow out of the gate for many if not most games this post season. Ozzie has been the best player in Red for every first period. People think if the big saves are made early in the game they are somehow less important. He has been the ONLY Wing who has consistently started games well.

***edited to attribute quote reference

Edited May 20, 2009 by kook_10

[Theophany 110]

Gotta give props to Cleary, but he's only elevated his play really the last few games. Franzen, Lidstrom, and Ozzie are the players that have performed game in, game out with the fewest mistakes and the best numbers.

Lidstrom is my vote, but he hasn't been flashy enough. Therefore most likely Franzen would get it.

The thing about Lidstrom and Franzen, though, is that we could still be in this position without them. We've got enough experience on our roster to have others step up.

Franzen and Cleary are the only other legitimate contenders for the MVP, IMO. They've both turned up some clutch goals that without which, we wouldn't have won important games.

Ozzie though has clear and away been absolutely ridiculous in the playoffs, though, proved by his numbers. Any team would be incredibly happy to have him with how he's playing goal right now.

[mmorland 16]

Is it just me or does anyone else think Osgood would be deserving of Conn Symth if Wings win the Cup this season? (assuming he keeps up at the pace that he has been).

[Reds4Life 51]

The thing about Lidstrom and Franzen, though, is that we could still be in this position without them. We've got enough experience on our roster to have others step up.

Franzen and Cleary are the only other legitimate contenders for the MVP, IMO. They've both turned up some clutch goals that without which, we wouldn't have won important games.

Ozzie though has clear and away been absolutely ridiculous in the playoffs, though, proved by his numbers. Any team would be incredibly happy to have him with how he's playing goal right now.

Doubtufl. Without those two Ducks win game 1 and game 4 at the very least.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Reds4Life

[8 Legged RedWing 367]

Ozzie hands down.

[weGotTheCup89 41]

On my ballot for the top 3... I think I'd have to say

1. Crosby

2. Crosby

3. CROSBY FTW!!!

[Theophany 110]

Doubtufl. Without those two Ducks win game 1 and game 4 at the very least.

You're saying that on a team rife with scoring talent, no one else can step up and score?

Two hypothetical situations for you:

1) Lids goes out for the rest of the playoffs. We bring up Meech to pair with Lebda and play Ericsson with Rafalski. We give Meech minutes like Chelios and he saw against Anaheim while Rafalski was out.

2) Osgood goes out. We bring Conklin in.

Which would you rather see? The best goalie in the playoffs out for a goalie with ONE GAME of playoff experience, or us playing slightly worse defense with the best goalie in the playoffs?

I know my pick. Ozzie has been absolutely clutch and shut up any doubters he had.

[Urgi 0]

You're saying that on a team rife with scoring talent, no one else can step up and score?

Two hypothetical situations for you:

1) Lids goes out for the rest of the playoffs. We bring up Meech to pair with Lebda and play Ericsson with Rafalski. We give Meech minutes like Chelios and he saw against Anaheim while Rafalski was out.

2) Osgood goes out. We bring Conklin in.

Which would you rather see? The best goalie in the playoffs out for a goalie with ONE GAME of playoff experience, or us playing slightly worse defense with the best goalie in the playoffs?

I know my pick. Ozzie has been absolutely clutch and shut up any doubters he had.

He doesnt have to be MVP just because he is a better goalie than Conklin.

[Theophany 110]

He doesnt have to be MVP just because he is a better goalie than Conklin.

No, but he does because he's the most valuable player on the team.

People just think that playing well is the hallmark of being MVP.

It's not. It's the person that you could not do it without.

That's Ozzie.

[Reds4Life 51]

You're saying that on a team rife with scoring talent, no one else can step up and score?

Two hypothetical situations for you:

1) Lids goes out for the rest of the playoffs. We bring up Meech to pair with Lebda and play Ericsson with Rafalski. We give Meech minutes like Chelios and he saw against Anaheim while Rafalski was out.

2) Osgood goes out. We bring Conklin in.

Which would you rather see? The best goalie in the playoffs out for a goalie with ONE GAME of playoff experience, or us playing slightly worse defense with the best goalie in the playoffs?

I know my pick. Ozzie has been absolutely clutch and shut up any doubters he had.

Option 2 any day. Conklin was solid during regular season.

Ericsson and Rafalski? OMFG what a disaster.

Meech in is very bad too.

Conklin might, or might not be worse than Osgood. Meech is definitely worse than Lidstrom.

As for "slightly" worse defence. Are you ******* kidding? This just proves how Lidstrom's game goes unnoticed.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Reds4Life

[Guest Shoreline]

[Theophany 110]

Option 2 any day. Conklin was solid during regular season.

Ericsson and Rafalski? OMFG what a disaster.

Meech in is very bad too.

Conklin might, or might not be worse than Osgood. Meech is definitely worse than Lidstrom.

As for "slightly" worse defence. Are you ******* kidding? This just proves how Lidstrom's game goes unnoticed.

I've played defense since I was four bloody years old. 20 years. I know how good Lids is.

My point was that you obviously don't know how many amazing saves Ozzie has made this postseason. Conklin is alright as a goalie, but there's no way he could match Ozzie's play.

Big Rig does fine on the defensive end. He's not great on breakouts, but he plays position well, and he could definitely body up on Kane and Toews.

[Theophany 110]

How many times are you going to post that?

Forgive me, my wifi was lagging. The page never went past the initial loading. If there was a delete post option, I'd delete them.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Ozzie, Lidstrom, Franzen or Cleary.

[55fan 5,133]

thus far, Ozzie.

check with me later if Cleary keeps up his streak.

[Firehawk 305]

If we happen to win the cup this year and ozzie's GAA stays at 2.2 or less...it would be a travesty if he didn't get it.

I don't think any skater on the team stands out enough this year to get the MVP. It has to be Ozzie...

[BigTex 1]

Franzen, IMO. He's been huge (no pun intended) almost every game this post season. Just awesome.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

I'm sure some might say Franzen (namely the media) for his gaudy scoring numbers, and that's certainly a fair choice. Dig a little deeper (which the media rarely does) and you have Lidstrom, shutting down top line forwards, scoring from the backend, leading the team, and keeping the big red machine chugging along. I'm of the opinion that Nick could have won the Conn Smythe in any year the Wings won the Cup; he's always been this good, and I certainly wouldn't bat an eye if he did win it when all's said and done.

For my money though, it's Ozzie. He's been the best goalie in the playoffs from the games I've watched. Note that. Not from stats... From the things that I have observed while watching players play. Stats are useful for trying to get a read on players and teams that you can't watch on a regular basis, but we watch the Wings every night. We've all seen what Oz can do. There's no reason for anyone to be doubting him at this point, that's for sure.

[Vincanni 1]

In my opinion realistically the MVP should go to the Goalie almost every playoff year, after all he is the only player on the ice for a full 60 minutes every game for the most part. So in my eyes a goalie really has to shine and put a team on his back to win it. Ozzie though, does fit into a unique situation with our team as no one player has really blown up these players save maybe for Cleary who's just playing so much better than in the regular season, not too mention Osgood has also raised his game at least 2 fold for the playoffs. So if you're going to factor in improvement, so far it has to be between Ozzie and Cleary, but for my pick of overall excellence I'd say Lidstrom edges them both out so far. A political answer? Sure, but I think its fitting.

[C-TownWing 0]

You do know that +/- is a team statistic. So you can throw out Nick Lidstrom's plus minus because by your own argument it means absolutely nothing. Assists...last time I checked you can't get any without somebody else scoring the goal. Short of penalties, I'm not sure there are really many stats that could be considered solely individual stats and not a reflection of the team. And really that is a stretch because if the guy you play with sucks and is out of position you might have to take a penalty.

QFT. Every stat's a team stat to some extent. The best we can do is recognize that, but also give credit where credit's due. I don't care how good the D is, a sieve doesn't put up a 2.04 or whatever it is.

If we're talking Conn Smythe (in the event we win the Cup), Osgood and Franzen are really the only two candidates at the moment, although that can still change obviously.

For "actual" MVP, Lidstrom's in the mix too. Unfortunately, "on the ice against the opponent's top scorers and shutting them down" doesn't get trophy attention by itself (and don't throw Z's play on Crosby at me--he was also the leading scorer in the playoffs). That always loses out to the goalie or the guy with the pile of goals.

I'll vote for Ozzie, although admittedly part of it is because I felt like he deserved it last year.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Its not fair to compare regular season and the playoffs since you face better teams and the attitude is so different.

In the context of this discussion it's relevant. Osgood was terrible in the regular season. He's been phenomenal in the playoffs.

Look at every single Wing and tell me who has elevated their game more than Osgood from the regular season to the post season?

Of course that doesn't automatically make him MVP.

What makes him MVP thus far is that the arguments against him are complete hogwash.

He hasn't faced quality chances? WTF are people talking about? Our penalty killing is terrible, it's worse than it was in the regular season and God Almighty himself Nick Lidstrom aint' making it any better. Chris Osgood has been saving our proverbial bacon with huge stops every game.

He has faced over 400 shots on goal and leads the leage in GAA and essentially is tied with Ward for best save percentage. Are we to believe that Carolina, Chicago and Pittsburgh are giving up quality chances but the vaunted Red Wings don't give up quality chances?

Ridiculous.

It's one thing to think Lidstrom has been the most valuable player for our cup run. I have him at #2.

It's a completely different thing to disrespect and belittle the accomplishments Osgood has attained during this same run.

Forget about every other player for 1 second and look at how he's played. Anybody remember the save he made on Wisniewski? ******* game saver right there. I can't count how many saves like that he's made.

Why is it that whenever a Red Wing player plays well, such as Lidstrom, it's because he's so great. But when Osgood plays well it's not because Osgood is playing great, it's still because Lidstrom is great.

Here's the thing. Osgood plays 60 minutes a night. Lidstrom plays 25. So for the other 35 minutes a night when Lidstrom isn't out there I guess we have to give credit to Zata, Kronner, Mule, Cleary or somebody else. Whatever we do, we can't give credit to the guy between the pipes. The guy with the best ******* numbers in the NHL.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

QFT. Every stat's a team stat to some extent. The best we can do is recognize that, but also give credit where credit's due. I don't care how good the D is, a sieve doesn't put up a 2.04 or whatever it is.

If we're talking Conn Smythe (in the event we win the Cup), Osgood and Franzen are really the only two candidates at the moment, although that can still change obviously.

For "actual" MVP, Lidstrom's in the mix too. Unfortunately, "on the ice against the opponent's top scorers and shutting them down" doesn't get trophy attention by itself (and don't throw Z's play on Crosby at me--he was also the leading scorer in the playoffs). That always loses out to the goalie or the guy with the pile of goals.

I'll vote for Ozzie, although admittedly part of it is because I felt like he deserved it last year.

I'd be interested to see a breakdown of the Anaheim series. I'd like to see how many points the Getzlaf line had and who they got them against. Lids had a spectacular game 1 if I recall but other than that had just 3 assists in 6 games? I think he was overall a +1 for the series?

Aside from the 4 to 3 loss, Oz was stellar in that series, winning at least two, 1 goal games, including the clincher.

And as another astute member pointed out, we've had alot of sub par starts to games, early pk's from a team that currently s***s the big one on the pk and Os has been the one holding down the fort. I think he's given up 1 bad, early goal thus far.

People say Lidstrom's game goes unnoticed. And there is some truth to that. But it's one thing to have your stick in the lane and deflect a Patrick Kane pass attempt to shut down a rush. It's another to stop a point blank save in a tie score hockey game. Osgood has done it how many times in the Chicago series alone?

[RockyMountainWingGal 108]

This should be made a poll.

1. Franzen

2. Osgood

3. Cleary if he keeps up this scoring pace

other mentions: Lidstrom, Z (has been playing great despite the fact most of his goals are EN), and heck I'm going to do it and toss in Sammy as honorable mention IF he nets a few more GWGs in these POs (can't believe I did it ).