Babcock not happy with top line

[Icesurfer 75]

From MLIVE:

Top Line Must Improve

Really can't make any changes until Filppula gets back. Z's and Helmer's Line have been good.... so can't mess with them.

Bertuzzi and Williams were wasted signings. LIke I said before both are/were dragging down their lines.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Icesurfer

[j.hoop 64]

maybe they havent been producing as well, but i dont think its for a lack of trying. bert just needs to find his groove, he has come close to putting many in or just missing. its crazy to see datsyuk and "not doing well" in the same sentence. he tries so hard, and i tell my dad all time, he just needs to be a little selfish sometimes and just shoot it.

[Echolalia 2,961]

The issue that I have with Bertuzzi is that he isn't playing a team game right now. If he gets the puck in the offensive zone, he is focused only on putting it on the net, not necessarily passing it to a player who may have a better opportunity, or set up to pull a defensman out of position.

Also, how is Williams a bad signing? 7 points in 15 games isn't necessarily good, but its certainly not bad considering he isn't a top six forward to begin with.

[brett 1,029]

yeah i said this last game, bertuzzi has been bad. i wasnt expecting him to lead the team in scoring but if your playign with f***in datsyuk you better be putting up some points. atleast homer is.

i see bertuzzi moving to 3rd line when franzen and flip come back

i wouldnt mind trading both bertuzzi and williams for someone better and have abs or someone play 3rd. who can we get for 3 million?

franzen datsyuk homer

leino zetterberg cleary

bertuzzi flip williams sounds like s*** but who knows maybe it could work out flip holding on to the puck williams in the slot, bert infront of the net

draper helm eaves

Edited November 20, 2009 by brett

[maltbymaniac 13]

what about leino? seems like he is invisible out there to me.

[Guest Lidstromboli]

i'd like to see abdelkader get some more time in

[Yzerfan1999 81]

I agree the top line has been bad - the Zetterberg - Cleary - Leino line has been the Wings best. I disagree however, that its Bertuzzi's fault. While him and Dats clearly are not clicking, he has shown some nice ability to control the puck and get chances, he just cant bury them right now.

As happy as I am that Holmstrom has 9 goals, he is really a liability to have on your line. Unless the play is already set up in the opposing zone, Holmstrom seems almost useless. He can't handle the puck, can't skate, and can't pass well enough to be on the top line. I really like his work on the PP of course, and he works hard in front, but really, he is useless on the breakout. Zetterberg AND Datsyuk/Franzen/Hossa had enough skill to compensate for that when paired with him, but Bertuzzi just isn't and good as any of those guys.

I don't have a solution for this really...except maybe switch up Leino and Holmstrom. Maybe Zetterberg and Cleary's style will work better with Holmstrom...I just don't know.

[Mors 201]

Not sure where all the random Bertuzzi hate comes from, other than people just hating on him. He has 9 points in 19 games putting him 7th on the team. Datysuk wasn't exactly on fire for the first 5-8 games, and Holmstrom can barely skate, don't put that all on Bert.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

From MLIVE:

Top Line Must Improve

Really can't make any changes until Filppula gets back. Z's and Helmer's Line have been good.... so can't mess with them.

Filppula's scoring touch is worse than Bertuzzi's, so he doesn't really provide Datsyuk with a better scoring winger. At least Filppula can protect the puck and pass it, though, instead of just holding it too long and taking a bad shot (not that Val doesn't do that from time to time, but he's not as bad for doing that as Bert's been).

Holmstrom's hot streak looks to be over, so the top line is basically Datsyuk, a screener/puck-retriever and some baggage.

Adding Filppula doesn't give that line any more scoring punch. Filppula performs the same tasks as Datsyuk. That being said-- he did have some success in 07-08 when he played on Datsyuk's wing and played the roll of shooter. His shot isn't great but his strong hockey sense helped make up for that back in 07-08 when he was asked to play that role. I'm confident that he's a step up from Bertuzzi at this point.

Filppula definitely isn't a top-six scoring winger, though, so the long term solution is definitely to get Franzen up with Dats.

Bertuzzi and Williams were wasted signings. LIke I said before both are/were dragging down their lines.

Neither of those players were signed to be the mainstay of the 1st line wing position. They both signed small contracts intended to give the Wings scoring depth. Put it this way-- if they weren't here right now with these injuries Holland would've had to sign someone or trade for someone now. There's no way he'd add more AHL kids to this team. 5 rookies is already a stretch for a Holland team.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

what about leino? seems like he is invisible out there to me.

Huh? Let's look at two lines:

Williams-Zetterberg-Cleary

Leino-Zetterberg-Cleary

Which line had ok chemistry, with Zetterberg playing below expectations?

Which line has awesome chemistry with Zetterberg playing like a beast?

Is Leino the reason why Z is on fire? No. Is the the chemistry between Leino and Zetterberg a contributing factor in Z's ht streak? Yeah, of course. That line has played waaayyyy better with Leino on it than it did with Williams.

Why? Because Williams was shooting first then looking for a chance to shoot again. Leino's been retrieving pucks, battling on the boards and passing back to Zetterberg when the time is right. That's exactly how you need a player on Z's wing to be-- a puck retriever who can shoot if asked to but has the hockey sense to make the right passes. Williams did not fulfill that role.

I'm not sure if you've watched any recent games, but Leino's played very well along side Zetterberg. He's getting back on track and starting to look like the kid that scored 5 g and 4 a in his first 13 NHL games.

Let's look at Leino, Cleary and Z's stats since that line was assembled:

Leino: 1 g 1 a 2 pts +5

Cleary: 2 g 3a 5 pts +8

Zetterberg: 5 g 5 a 10 pts +6

(Those numbers are over 4 games)

Now Leino hasn't torn it up, but a goal and an assist in 4 games is good for a rookie who's just getting used to the NHL. You certainly can't complain about those numbers given that he's played about 30 NHL games in his entire life.

So far Leino hasn't really consistently met expectations, with 3 goals and 2 assists in 18 games. That puts him on pace for a 13 g 9 a 22 pt rookie season. Hudler's rookie season was 15 g 10 a 25 pts, so that puts Leino roughly on Hudler's rookie pace. Note that Hudler went from 25 pts to 57 pts in his first 3 season in the NHL, so there's a huge leap between rookie production and that of an established NHL'er. You can't expect a kid to walk in and produce right away as a rookie.

It's also worth noting that most rookie seasons tend to ramp up as the player becomes accustomed to the game and starts to play "their game".

[Carman 387]

Just not many options to jump start Datsyuk right now. Bertuzzi shouldn't be playing on the first line, but we don't really have another choice with injuries.

The only thing I wouldn't mind seeing is throwing Abdelkader up there with Datsyuk-Homer/Bertuzzi from time to time. Getting some more speed with Datsyuk might just provide that hidden switch, not too mention Abby is pretty good in the corners and can forecheck well if nothing else.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I agree the top line has been bad - the Zetterberg - Cleary - Leino line has been the Wings best. I disagree however, that its Bertuzzi's fault. While him and Dats clearly are not clicking, he has shown some nice ability to control the puck and get chances, he just cant bury them right now.

As happy as I am that Holmstrom has 9 goals, he is really a liability to have on your line. Unless the play is already set up in the opposing zone, Holmstrom seems almost useless. He can't handle the puck, can't skate, and can't pass well enough to be on the top line. I really like his work on the PP of course, and he works hard in front, but really, he is useless on the breakout. Zetterberg AND Datsyuk/Franzen/Hossa had enough skill to compensate for that when paired with him, but Bertuzzi just isn't and good as any of those guys.

I don't have a solution for this really...except maybe switch up Leino and Holmstrom. Maybe Zetterberg and Cleary's style will work better with Holmstrom...I just don't know.

When you pair someone up with Datsyuk their purpose is simple-- shoot the puck at the net, be ready to have a puck put on your stick in any and every situation.

If Datsyuk's your centre all you need to do is bury the puck and make smart decisions with it. Bertuzzi's been struggling with both his ability to bury and sound decision making/shot selection.

Datsyuk's ability to make brilliant passes is worthless if the guy he's passing it to can't bury the puck. He doesn't need a linemate that can control the puck and get chances as much as he needs a guy who can do something with the chances handed to him.

Bert's been working hard out there most of the time and seems snake bitten, but there's no room for 20 games of bad luck when you're on the 1st line.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Just not many options to jump start Datsyuk right now. Bertuzzi shouldn't be playing on the first line, but we don't really have another choice with injuries.

The only thing I wouldn't mind seeing is throwing Abdelkader up there with Datsyuk-Homer/Bertuzzi from time to time. Getting some more speed with Datsyuk might just provide that hidden switch, not too mention Abby is pretty good in the corners and can forecheck well if nothing else.

Abs is a definitely the best alternative right now. He's got a good shot and a nose for the net. He lacks a bit of offensive confidence but that's to be expected from someone in his shoes. Based on his rookie season in the AHL he does has the ability to put points up when he's confident and on his game. I'd love to see what he could do with this opportunity. Abdelkader's played so few pro hockey games (remember that last season was his first pro season) that it's hard to tell whether he's got the chops to be a 2nd liner at this level.

[uk_redwing 495]

This team could do with someone who had a goal every 4 games ratio last season to replace one of the guys we've got now.

[Carman 387]

Yeah that was pretty much the only alternative I could think of. Give either Homer/Bertuzzi a rest a couple shifts a game and send Abby out there to bang some bodies and just play. He has had quite a few scoring chances and has cashed in on a pretty good portion considering his ice time and role. One thing I've noticed with the Datsyuk line is the lack of forechecking and established presence in cycling in the offensive zone. Almost all the chances from that line either come from face off wins or transition odd man rushes. They really haven't been able to win battles on the forecheck which is one less opportunity for giving Datsyuk the puck in the offensive zone.

[mjlegend 155]

This team could do with someone who had a goal every 4 games ratio last season to replace one of the guys we've got now.

We can't afford Hudler now.

[redwingmachine 189]

I see 2 problems with the 1st line.

1)Dats isn’t shooting, he is passing to Bert (which leads to the 2nd problem)

2)Bert is trying to play at a level he isn’t…and it’s just not working out.

Bert needs to get back to basics and put the puck on net… for Homer to redirect if nothing else.

Dats needs to shoot more and pass to Bert less.

[Chunkylover 26]

The issue that I have with Bertuzzi is that he isn't playing a team game right now. If he gets the puck in the offensive zone, he is focused only on putting it on the net, not necessarily passing it to a player who may have a better opportunity, or set up to pull a defensman out of position.

It's funny because I think the exact opposite. I see Bert too often skating into the zone, pulling off to the boards and looking to set someone up instead of shooting. Like he's trying to be the play-making center Datsyuk is. I'm not denying his occasional forays to the crease, I just would rather see him drive the net more and look to pass less.

[cupforwings 138]

Filppula's scoring touch is worse than Bertuzzi's, so he doesn't really provide Datsyuk with a better scoring winger. At least Filppula can protect the puck and pass it, though, instead of just holding it too long and taking a bad shot (not that Val doesn't do that from time to time, but he's not as bad for doing that as Bert's been).

Holmstrom's hot streak looks to be over, so the top line is basically Datsyuk, a screener/puck-retriever and some baggage.

Adding Filppula doesn't give that line any more scoring punch. Filppula performs the same tasks as Datsyuk. That being said-- he did have some success in 07-08 when he played on Datsyuk's wing and played the roll of shooter. His shot isn't great but his strong hockey sense helped make up for that back in 07-08 when he was asked to play that role. I'm confident that he's a step up from Bertuzzi at this point.

Filppula definitely isn't a top-six scoring winger, though, so the long term solution is definitely to get Franzen up with Dats.

Neither of those players were signed to be the mainstay of the 1st line wing position. They both signed small contracts intended to give the Wings scoring depth. Put it this way-- if they weren't here right now with these injuries Holland would've had to sign someone or trade for someone now. There's no way he'd add more AHL kids to this team. 5 rookies is already a stretch for a Holland team.

Uh oh... i see another Jake Ryan thread coming if that line doesn't score tonight..

but really, Datsyuk is trying hard he just doesn't have any chemistry with Bert (who can't find the back of the net to save his life). Maybe they should try putting Abby up there. He is a goal scorer and with Datsyuk passing it to him he can't do much worse than Bert... Now to contradict myself, i still think Bert best option for that line, skill wise.

p.s. On a good note, only 3ish more months until Franzen is back!!!

[redwingmachine 189]

I would love to see what Helmer could do on a line with Dats! I like watching that dude (Helmer) skate; he has a level of intensity about him, which I think is defiantly missing from line 1

[cjm502 165]

It's funny because I think the exact opposite. I see Bert too often skating into the zone, pulling off to the boards and looking to set someone up instead of shooting. Like he's trying to be the play-making center Datsyuk is. I'm not denying his occasional forays to the crease, I just would rather see him drive the net more and look to pass less.

I think Bert is doing a great job for what we have him for. He always gets forced to the boards by the defenseman and has to attempt to make the pass. It happens quite a few times a game, it is like he is afraid to slow down and wait for everyone else, or go through the middle and get a quick shot off. One thing is for sure, Bert can not play when he is under pressure.

[cupforwings 138]

I would love to see what Helmer could do on a line with Dats! I like watching that dude (Helmer) skate; he has a level of intensity about him, which I think is defiantly missing from line 1

That wouldn't work... Helm is a checker and speed guy, not a hands and scoring guy.. If it were to be anybody, it would be Abby. But as of now, Bert is till the best option

[Guest Lidstromboli]

eaves would probably be better with dats

[Z and D for the C 712]

I see Datsyuk trying way to hard to be sneaky. He tires to deke and s*** but it always seems to end up coming back the other way.

[Pskov Wings Fan 71]

The issue that I have with Bertuzzi is that he isn't playing a team game right now. If he gets the puck in the offensive zone, he is focused only on putting it on the net, not necessarily passing it to a player who may have a better opportunity, or set up to pull a defensman out of position.

Also, how is Williams a bad signing? 7 points in 15 games isn't necessarily good, but its certainly not bad considering he isn't a top six forward to begin with.

Bertuzzi should follow a simple rule - if he got the puck he should either shoot right away or pass to Pavel and get open. Pavel is routinely covered by 2-3 opposition player when he got the puck. There got to be enough space to get open.