The Chris Osgood discussion thread

[Outsider 42]

And once again, you fail to grasp the entire gist of my argument. I don't know if it's because you don't agree with it, or if you simply can't understand what I'm trying to point out. Here....I'll try to break it down....as succinctly as possible.....

your persistence in naming the 6-5 record does nothing to enhance your argument, if anything it shows how little we can afford to needlessly play a struggling goaltender,

I don't feel that Osgood is "struggling". He's not playing at his best, but he's not playing poorly, either. Period.

.....since even a goaltender doing well is yielding average results with this team,

Howard is "doing well" against primarily TERRIBLE TEAMS. There's no guarantee that his "average" 6-5 "results" will translate, let alone IMPROVE, against TOUGHER competition, and with a tighter schedule.

Howard AT HIS BEST, and against a WEAK SCHEDULE, has netted that remarkable 6-5 record. For the third time....what in BLUE HELL makes you think those "average" results are going to improve as the level of opposition improves? And improves.....Dramatically.

imagine the record a struggling goalie would produce... That's not to say that Osgood would continue to struggle if given more starts...

And that's what I'm arguing. Osgood, if given more Starts, WILL improve. And an Osgood, at HIS best, blows Jimmy Howard, at HIS best, clear out of the Arena. Every day of the week. And twice on Sunday.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Outsider

[thedisappearer 291]

Ridiculous thread has gotten very ridiculous.

[Carman 387]

Ridiculous thread has gotten very ridiculous.

Agreed. Between the Homer Osgood fans, and the rabid Osgood haters. I'm actually looking level headed in this thread.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Carman

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Agreed. It's up to the goalie/player to play better if they think the coach might not be too pleased with their performance. Complaining to the media and knocking the coach's judgment seems the wrong way to go about fixing the situation. JMO.

There might be more going on here than we know/assume.

Wow. Is that really the uniform the Dominator has to wear now?!?

[Drake_Marcus 890]

By the way guys and gals, when it comes to Detroit goalie controversies and where they rate in the rest of the hockey world...

Barely a flicker.

Seriously. I don't care who's in net as long as it means the Wings have two more points the next morning.

(but it'd be kinda cool if Lebda threw the pads on and got a shut-out)

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Agreed. Between the Homer Osgood fans, and the rabid Osgood haters. I'm actually looking level headed in this thread.

Yeah but check out the cool gif I managed to incorporate into the thread.

[Casey 145]

That is where you and I disagree, chris......vehemently.

Howard playing "like he is now" was good enough to go 6-5 against the softest part of the schedule, and against some of the worst Teams in the League. As I previously stated, he racked up 4 of those 6 Wins against the Rangers, the Ducks, the Jackets, and the Lightning. The only Wins he had against anything even COMPARABLE to what's coming up on the schedule were against Phoenix and Colorado.

And let's face it....as good as YOU and zack think Phoenix and Colorado are.....

They're not exactly San Jose. Or Washington. Or Pittsburgh. Or Chicago. As a matter of fact, the only Team comparable to any of THOSE Teams that Howard has faced has been.....Chicago.

On the second night of back-to-back Games for Chicago

With Chicago having faced San Jose the night before.

After a night where the 'Hawks exhausted themselves taking 47 shots against Nabokov, while holding the Sharks to FOURTEEN shots against Huet.

At Home. With a rested Wings Team in front of him. Motivated to avenge a whitewashing from the previous meeting. On a night where his Team outshot, and outplayed the 'Hawks for most of the evening.

The result?

That "great" performance earned another 0-3 LOSS. Same as the last time the Wings faced off against Chicago.

I'll ask again.....considering that Howard's "great" performances were "great" enough to earn a SIX AND FIVE record against primarily CRAPPY Teams.....

What in BLUE HELL makes you think that him "playing like he's playing" is going to translate into success against BETTER Teams, during a TOUGHER schedule.....spent mostly on the road?

One question.

In December, I see 4 shutouts against. I see 2 regulation shutouts for, with one loss in OT.

What is Howard supposed to do when the team doesn't score? I don't care if you have Terry Sawchuk in goal, if you can't be asked to put one puck in the net, you lose.

What more should he give? What more can he do?

[Carman 387]

Yeah but check out the cool gif I managed to incorporate into the thread.

This thread makes about as much sense as this.

Oh that's fun!

[Rivalred 630]

One question.

In December, I see 4 shutouts against. I see 2 regulation shutouts for, with one loss in OT.

What is Howard supposed to do when the team doesn't score? I don't care if you have Terry Sawchuk in goal, if you can't be asked to put one puck in the net, you lose.

What more should he give? What more can he do?

I mentioned the entire problem of late has not been defense or goal tending, but the lack of scoring. They said I was crazy and needed to be institutionalized.

Of course, all the wannabe know it alls just want attention and do not see the lite.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Rivalred

[Outsider 42]

One question.

In December, I see 4 shutouts against. I see 2 regulation shutouts for, with one loss in OT.

What is Howard supposed to do when the team doesn't score? I don't care if you have Terry Sawchuk in goal, if you can't be asked to put one puck in the net, you lose.

What more should he give? What more can he do?

Those are good questions. All of them.

Firstly, I see the Wings playing differently. More tensed up. And definitely concentrating more on Defense than on Offense. Last night was the first night in awhile I've seen them actually look like they were interested in scoring goals, rather than in keeping the OTHER TEAM from scoring goals.

It was good to see. I'm hoping to see more of it. They looked pretty confident as the Game wore on. I'm also hoping that we'll get some Players back....soon.....very soon!.....and that Offense won't be so hard to come by.

Secondly.....I'm not saying that there IS anything more he can do. He's done what's been asked of him. I never stated that he hasn't. He's playing well enough to keep his Team in Games, but he hasn't stolen any.

What I'm saying is that there is, on the bench, a goaltender we KNOW is capable of stealing Games. And of stealing Games against the best Teams in the League. And with the upcoming schedule, we need to GET HIM into some Games.

I never advocated benching Howard. He's done absolutely NOTHING to warrant being benched. He's done what they've asked of him. He deserves to continue getting playing time.

By the same token....Osgood has done nothing to warrant being benched, EITHER. He's not playing at his best, but he's ALSO not playing badly! And HE deserves to get some playing time, as well.

Especially considering the fact that they are going to need him.

And Rivalred is correct. Goaltending is NOT this Teams problem.....whether it be Howard OR Osgood.

[Feldmarschall 9]

Slow down, Outsider. This isn't a literary forum, you're not writing the next Shakespearean epic. Hell isn't blue, nor does it need to be capitalized, bolded, and italicized. You look ridiculous. Be cool. I like what you're saying, but chill.

To contribute to the discussion, I have it on good authority that Jimmy Howard has played well regardless of whether or not you believe the schedule favored him, and that Chris Osgood will be the starter again once the playoffs start (assuming we're in them).

Also, the criticism of the offense is spot-on. Generally speaking, you have to outscore the opposition to win. Hard to do that with zero goals.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Feldmarschall

[Outsider 42]

Slow down, Outsider. This isn't a literary forum, you're not writing the next Shakespearean epic. Hell isn't blue, nor does it need to be capitalized, bolded, and italicized. You look ridiculous. Be cool. I like what you're saying, but chill.

To contribute to the discussion, I have it on good authority that Jimmy Howard has played well regardless of whether or not you believe the schedule favored him, and that Chris Osgood will be the starter again once the playoffs start (assuming we're in them).

Also, the criticism of the offense is spot-on. Generally speaking, you have to outscore the opposition to win. Hard to do that with zero goals.

Yet another who doesn't like my posting style. I'm gonna develop a complex....

<okay....maybe not>

[thedisappearer 291]

I mentioned the entire problem of late has not been defense or goal tending, but the lack of scoring. They said I was crazy and needed to be institutionalized.

Of course, all the wannabe know it alls just want attention and do not see the lite.

STOP BEING RATIONAL!!! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE AND IT'S ALL [insert Red Wing's name]!!!

[Vladifan 680]

I mentioned the entire problem of late has not been defense or goal tending, but the lack of scoring. They said I was crazy and needed to be institutionalized.

Of course, all the wannabe know it alls just want attention and do not see the lite.

Yo, Rivalred: I may be one o' them wannabe know it alls too, but I agreed with you then and I STILL agree with you.

Before this thread even began, everyone, I mean everyone was bitching about not enough goals. So where'd we lose the puck? It's still the main problem. Goalie balance would be nice. HOWEVER...SHOOT THE DAMN PUCK.

Thank you. I feel so much better.

[Rivalred 630]

And Rivalred is correct. Goaltending is NOT this Teams problem.....whether it be Howard OR Osgood.

You are wrong, he is wrong! We are all wrong!

STOP BEING RATIONAL!!! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE AND IT'S ALL [insert Red Wing's name]!!!

Do not look at me in that tone of voice.

The needs of the few outweigh the needs of many, except when it comes to goals

Yo, Rivalred: I may be one o' them wannabe know it alls too, but I agreed with you then and I STILL agree with you.

Before this thread even began, everyone, I mean everyone was bitching about not enough goals. So where'd we lose the puck? It's still the main problem. Goalie balance would be nice. HOWEVER...SHOOT THE DAMN PUCK.

Thank you. I feel so much better.

Who ya wanna be? I do wish I was an astronaut (do hope you know I am teasing)

Alright; back to reality.

This entire team needs to stay focused and not dwell on the "look at me" factor. The team does not need any conflict at the moment, all the injuries have caused enough.

[eva unit zero 271]

The Wings have scored 1.15 more goals per 60 minutes in Howard's wins than in Osgood's. This is on a shot difference of 0.6 shots per game in Howard's favor; the Wings have a shooting percentage of 14.9% in Howard's wins, compared to 10.0% in Osgood's.

Conversely, in losses, the Wings have posted a 0.9 shots for advantage in Osgood's favor in losses. The Wings have also posted a 7.9% shooting percentage, compared to Howard's 4.3%.

However, the Wings have won by an average of 2.44 goals with Howard in net. Osgood has only won by 1.56, despite posting superior statistics.

You want to see the numbers, you say? Osgood's GAA and sv% in wins are 1.41 and .951, compared to Howard's 1.68 and .938%. The Wings have scored 4.12 in Howard's wins compared to 2.97 in Osgood's.

Overall, Howard has been getting 0.63 more goals per game; For Osgood to close that gap without more goal support, he'd have to only allow 1.85 per game. If this is what Babcock is expecting of Osgood every night, then that is ridiculous.

[thedisappearer 291]

The Wings have scored 1.15 more goals per 60 minutes in Howard's wins than in Osgood's. This is on a shot difference of 0.6 shots per game in Howard's favor; the Wings have a shooting percentage of 14.9% in Howard's wins, compared to 10.0% in Osgood's.

Conversely, in losses, the Wings have posted a 0.9 shots for advantage in Osgood's favor in losses. The Wings have also posted a 7.9% shooting percentage, compared to Howard's 4.3%.

However, the Wings have won by an average of 2.44 goals with Howard in net. Osgood has only won by 1.56, despite posting superior statistics.

You want to see the numbers, you say? Osgood's GAA and sv% in wins are 1.41 and .951, compared to Howard's 1.68 and .938%. The Wings have scored 4.12 in Howard's wins compared to 2.97 in Osgood's.

Overall, Howard has been getting 0.63 more goals per game; For Osgood to close that gap without more goal support, he'd have to only allow 1.85 per game. If this is what Babcock is expecting of Osgood every night, then that is ridiculous.

I've had a few beers. Explain, without saying HE PLAYED WORSER TEAMS, how this explains Howard's better GAA and save percentage.

[eva unit zero 271]

I've had a few beers. Explain, without saying HE PLAYED WORSER TEAMS, how this explains Howard's better GAA and save percentage.

Howard has performed slightly better statistically than Osgood in their respective ten losses. As losses make up half of Howard's games and more than half of Osgood's, that difference overcomes the difference during wins. Also, during the Buffalo game (no decision) Howard posted solid numbers, while Osgood had poor numbers in the Vancouver game (no decision) and that also contributes.

Also of note: Osgood has allowed 5 goals twice (Toronto and Buffalo) and 4 goals one other time (St.Louis in Sweden). Howard allowed 4 against Dallas, Edmonton, and Anaheim and 5 against Edmonton and St.Louis. Osgood lost all three games, Howard went 1-3-1.

Osgood has received 5+ goals of support once, and 4 goals no other times. Howard has received 4 goals against Vancouver, Dallas, and Colorado, 5 goals against Edmonton, 7 goals against Anaheim and 9 against Columbus. So not only has Osgood more consistently been 3 goals or less, he's also HAD to be posting those kinds of numbers given the far superior play the team has put in front of Howard.

Osgood deserves more starts, and probably will get them. His frustration is understandable, and will likely be resolved in the coming months. As will any questions about his play.

[thedisappearer 291]

OK, that makes a little more sense to me, but doesn't sway me that much. And we can't act like the offensive issues mean anything towards goaltending. I don;t care how much support they get, I care how they play. Howard's playing better.

Dude, you over analyze.

[Shady Ultima 40]

Was Babcock "to be questioned" when he decided to go with Legace against Edmonton in 2006? I have it on rather good authority that he was, in fact, "questioned" - and by two of the most consummate "Team guys" in the history of the Game.

Whoa... do we remember the same thing here?

I swear Osgood was injured that year? And that's why they gave Legace the start.

Legace started in 04, and did well AT HOME, but failed on the road and Joseph replacing him against Nashville in game 3.

I could be wrong, but I think that since Legace was given the start in two different seasons, by two different coaches says a bit.

As for the whole Ozzie thing, he's a 37 year old vet. If he only plays one game in four, he should be able to step it up and give his team a 60 minute effort, not 3 weak goals and then a 20 minute effort at the end of the game.

When Luongo came back from his rib injury, he replaced Raycroft, and he didn't allow any goals. He hadn't played in two weeks. People always say Osgood is up there with Brodeur and Luongo, but if he is... why can't he play a solid game?

I know Osgood is a great goalie, but he loses focus from time to time. He's been ok, but not to his own standards. That's where the problem lies.

Howard is "doing well" against primarily TERRIBLE TEAMS. There's no guarantee that his "average" 6-5 "results" will translate, let alone IMPROVE, against TOUGHER competition, and with a tighter schedule.

Howard AT HIS BEST, and against a WEAK SCHEDULE, has netted that remarkable 6-5 record. For the third time....what in BLUE HELL makes you think those "average" results are going to improve as the level of opposition improves? And improves.....Dramatically.

So the fact that we have been scoring less than 2 goals a game has NOTHING to do with those losses? The fact that in several of those losses he only let in ONE or TWO goals?

Against Chicago, he and Osgood played equally. Neither was outstanding, but Osgood should be able to be better than Howard. Howard played AS GOOD as Osgood, debatably better, holding the Hawks to only one goal until the third period. Our guys just COULD NOT SCORE.

You really want Howard to start SCORING THE GOALS? That's the only way a few of those games would be Wins instead of Losses....

You'll just ignore me anyways, because you won't have an answer to these things. Just keep saying it's ALL Howard's fault that he's at 6-5.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Shady Ultima

[Pucks 66]

Osgood should start getting more starts about the time we start getting healthy bodies back in the lineup. He'll get better goal support at that point and he will appear to be playing better. He'll we might even squeak into the playoffs and he can play the underappreciated hero card he seems to love so much.

As I'm reading this thread it's amazing that people needs stats or anything other than their eyeballs to see that Howard has been much better this year. As the team got weaker and more injured the rookie goalie got better and better and Osgood faded into the background. It's also above ridiculous that people thinks it's a motivation problem. HELLO.... we need every point possible or were finished. If that's not motivation than someone should check your pulse. If Chris was capable of flipping a switch he'd be smashing the piss out of it. However it is funny to sit back and watch the list of lame excuses and crazy la la land stats come out.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Pucks

[Shady Ultima 40]

You actually reminded me of something I wanted to say there.

There are no stats that show the one thing Howard has been better than Osgood at. When you're down, 1-0, the team knows they have a chance to grab the lead back. If they can't score, there's not much that the goalie can do. But when we do tie it, 1-1, Howard holds the tie better, allowing the Wings to go up 2-1. Osgood lets in the most untimely goals, the ones that kill momentum, that kill the Wings morale. Howard has not been doing that.

I really believe, that's what Babs wants out of Ozzie. No early goals (first 10 minutes) and no untimely goals (right after we tie, right after we grab the lead). Osgood's play has, at times, killed our confidence, which Howard rarely does. Dallas is a game where he did. I can list 10 times that Osgood did that, end result doesn't matter.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

You actually reminded me of something I wanted to say there.

There are no stats that show the one thing Howard has been better than Osgood at. When you're down, 1-0, the team knows they have a chance to grab the lead back. If they can't score, there's not much that the goalie can do. But when we do tie it, 1-1, Howard holds the tie better, allowing the Wings to go up 2-1. Osgood lets in the most untimely goals, the ones that kill momentum, that kill the Wings morale. Howard has not been doing that.

I really believe, that's what Babs wants out of Ozzie. No early goals (first 10 minutes) and no untimely goals (right after we tie, right after we grab the lead). Osgood's play has, at times, killed our confidence, which Howard rarely does. Dallas is a game where he did. I can list 10 times that Osgood did that, end result doesn't matter.

So Howard's flubber in the final minute of the second period against Colorado didn't hurt Detroit? The same play that gave Colorado a one goal game?

Or how about in Dallas?

And lets see those TEN times. Please.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Osgood should start getting more starts about the time we start getting healthy bodies back in the lineup. He'll get better goal support at that point and he will appear to be playing better. He'll we might even squeak into the playoffs and he can play the underappreciated hero card he seems to love so much.

As I'm reading this thread it's amazing that people needs stats or anything other than their eyeballs to see that Howard has been much better this year. As the team got weaker and more injured the rookie goalie got better and better and Osgood faded into the background. It's also above ridiculous that people thinks it's a motivation problem. HELLO.... we need every point possible or were finished. If that's not motivation than someone should check your pulse. If Chris was capable of flipping a switch he'd be smashing the piss out of it. However it is funny to sit back and watch the list of lame excuses and crazy la la land stats come out.

This is the perfect example of what I was saying in another thread.

I actually agree with a lot of your post. Howard has been playing better, regardless of stats. He's been steady and Ozzy has not. And if Osgood could flip a switch he sure as hell would.

But the bolded section is what makes you sound like a bats*** crazy Ozzy hater. He likes playing the underappreciated hero card? wtf are you talking about?? It's like you guys get so consumed by hate for him because of his play on the ice, it leads to these invented fantasies of what Ozzy is thinking and feeling. Like he's sitting in the lockerroom smoking a cigar saying "ehh, f*** it. I'll wait til the playoffs until I start playing good."

[Pucks 66]

This is the perfect example of what I was saying in another thread.

I actually agree with a lot of your post. Howard has been playing better, regardless of stats. He's been steady and Ozzy has not. And if Osgood could flip a switch he sure as hell would.

But the bolded section is what makes you sound like a bats*** crazy Ozzy hater. He likes playing the underappreciated hero card? wtf are you talking about?? It's like you guys get so consumed by hate for him because of his play on the ice, it leads to these invented fantasies of what Ozzy is thinking and feeling. Like he's sitting in the lockerroom smoking a cigar saying "ehh, f*** it. I'll wait til the playoffs until I start playing good."

I get what your saying Harold. Maybe I shouldn't have wrote it that way. I have no idea what Chris is thinking, wanting, etc. It's a select group of fans that like to play the underappreciated hero card on message boards and forums. It's them that I take exception with I guess. I believe Chris gives his best every time he steps on the ice and loves being a Red Wing. Unfortunately sometimes even that isn't enough.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Pucks