2/6 GDT: Red Wings 3 at Kings 4

[gcom007 1,465]

I don't know - hindsight is 20 - 20. Sure letting Hossa, the shin-guard assassin and Hudler all walk was a probably a mistake. But who would you have traded to keep Hudler or Sammie? Flip?

Regardless, it was not a stretch to think that:

1. Mule would pick up significant scoring slack with a year on par with last or better.

2. Z and D would have offensive years on par with where they have been

3. Lids and Rafalski would be on par offensively with where they have been.

4. We would see improvement in Flip including more goals. (I think he is playing fine, btw)

5. Leino would not have been a complete and utter bust

6. Bert and Willie would be good for 15 - 20 goals each.

7. Helm and Abbie would contribute more than last year.

8. Erriccson would improve, Lebda and Meech wouldn't suck.

9. Kronwall and Stuart would be forces.

Collectively, these are not bad assumptions from a GM's POV - but only 4 and the Helm part of 7 turned out to be true. And people will and have argued point 4. Injuries, the lack of development and age are the big factors this year.

I mean, when you think about it, the brightest spots this year have been Helm, Howard, and the emergence of Kronner offensively before he got hurt. Probly only Kronwall was something the GM considered.

I knew scoring would be a challenge, but I did not expect such inconsistent play on D and the obvious injuries. I fully expected 2nd in the central this year.

I'll address the points, and bear in mind, anything that I suggest in regards to the off-season is reflected just as I reflected it in the off-season and leading up to it. I'm not digging into hindsight here and as I've said, I don't think injuries have been our problem. Injuries have done more to suggest that our problem lies in our healthy team in my opinion. Anyways...

1. But Mule's goals were already a given in that scenario. As good or even better still doesn't account for the 80 goal hole left by 3 guys.

2. I agree in some ways about both Z and Dats, but at the same time, how much of that has to do with a lack of scoring talent around them I wonder? While Z has been a bit of an odder story, with Dats you've got a guy who I really think is playing great despite what some numbers suggest. As great as both of these guys are, they can't do it all themselves. If Datsyuk makes a brilliant play to set up a guy who lacks an offensive touch, what good is it? Nobody in this league does it well alone because even when it's not just play to play, having a well-rounded, balanced team helps maintain momentum as well which can make these guys better.

3. I think by years end they won't be so far removed from where they've been. Lidstrom was a 2nd half guy last year. As I've said for awhile, the hate was premature and we've clearly seen that in the last month.

4. Most know I don't think much of Flip's offensive abilities in general, but to be totally blunt, I think he's an absolutely s***ty goal scorer. I don't think he has ever shown that he has the tools to be a consistent goal-scorer either. He doesn't have a good shot, he's weak far too often in the offensive zone, easily getting knocked over and generally that just translates into him not finishing plays. He's a great defensive player when he wants to be (he cherry-picks too much at times for someone who can't score goals or make Datsyuk-esque plays) but that's not our weakness. At $3 million, he would've been the first guy sent packing to keep scoring as numerous people suggested around here and in the media.

5. I think it was a stretch to think anything of Leino. It would've been a stretch to say he'd be a bust, sure, but I think it's a stretch to think any rookie will give you consistent, strong play as well.

6. Bert's done that and perhaps more even and the season's not over. This guy could come up big in the post-season if we find a way to get things going at the right time. He'll be hungry as hell. Williams, eh, yeah, I don't know. As I've said, I probably would've been fine passing on him but I don't dislike it entirely at all. You're probably right in thinking that he'd be worth around 15 goals if not for injuries.

7. Helm has contributed more than last year but his role isn't as a goal scorer really anyways. Abs wasn't even supposed to be on the team.

8. Ericcson's the same deal as Leino. He's a rookie. It's dangerous to think too much or too little of rookies at any point in their rookie year. Let the year interpret itself and address what needs to be addressed over the summer and then start looking at what kind of a role the guy can really play. And I don't think anyone expected Lebda and Meech to do anything but suck anyways...

9. Kronwall is a force when he's in the lineup. I think he was the hardest injury for us to battle through. This injured team full of guys playing different roles, young kids and recent random signings ended up looking more like a team than our healthy lineup and Kronwall was a big part of fostering a lot of offense. Losing him hurt us tremendously. We were never shut out before he went down. Stuart's more the defensive end of that, and for the most part he's been great. Lately, I don't know what to say........I think he'll get it together, but lately it's been rough.

So when I look at this list, I say 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 and 9 are either poor assumptions or irrelevant to the problem. Remember, Bert and Williams were desperation signings done well after we lost all those guys. It's not as if they were part of the grand plan, so you can't really figure them in.

Bottom line to me is that we let 3 guys go who specialize in scoring. They accounted for 80 goals.

I think the simplest solution would have been to get Hossa signed at around a $5 million cap hit like the Chicago deal (add 40 goals with no defensive liability and tons of hustle), try to work with Hudler, but you stick to your guns and keep your nose to the ground for good deals and bring in those Bertuzzi and Eaves deals as they're good value deals to complement a big, proven star deal. Sure, you are guaranteed to have to dump guys like Flip (he'd be the biggest loss that we wouldn't have likely lost anyways), but he's overpaid on this team considering our two-way depth at center.

Hossa at $5 million >>>>>> Flip at $3 million

Either way it goes, we lose some guys, but in this case, we had no choice in what guys we lost and kept. We just let guys leave which left us picking from the scraps of what was left to put a team together. Bert and Eaves were great signings, but when you stop and think that Flip and Williams contracts would account for most of Hossa's new deal, it makes a lot of sense.

It could've been done, but Holland didn't have the foresight, gall, spine, whatever, to make it happen, and it was among his biggest mistakes as a GM. It's real tough for me to overlook that because it really is bigger than just Hossa.

What it ultimately reflects is that the guy didn't aggressively work to have a well-rounded team which is critically important, and this occurred mostly because the Wings are too soft in the cap era. Loyalty is great, but you've still got to put the best team on the ice every year. If that means trading or letting home grown talent go, so be it.

And it's not going to magically get better next year if we don't make some serious, even if seemingly lateral moves between now and the start of next season.

[Firehawk 305]

All this talk about Babcock not knowing what he's doing or whatever is retarded. He's taken us to back to back cups AGAIN, 1 win away from the 2nd. Seriously...come on. A team with a lowsy coach doesn't get to the SCF, sorry.

I think the fact of the matter is Babcock expects results from the veteran players, and if they aren't producing, I think Babs feels they should be treated as anyone else, benched or reduced ice time. Just because you've been in the league longer doesn't mean you should continue to get ice time when you're not doing anything, or hurting your team. This ain't the NBA...yet. (Thanks Buttman).

By the way, trying not to rant but it's hard: I don't even like the way the NHL is anymore. These teams are all getting set up to be 10 role players and 2-3 stars, maybe 1 superstar per team. Sounds a lot like the NBA. I'm sick of seeing role players take liberties with the stars. I long for the days of enforcers. Every team is watered down. I don't know, maybe I'm spoiled from what we had here, but it was a helluva lot more fun watching that than this team today, or other teams in the league that are good, but are built the same, just a couple stars and role players otherwise.

[Guest Howard He Do It?!]

You missed the point, clutch. As you most often do.

Stevie reportedly wanted one more year. He wanted that 700. He was made to feel "guilty" for wanting to accomplish such a thing when there were other, younger Players, who were waiting in the Wings, (literally and figuratively), for their turn to be the "face of the Franchise". It was subtle, but it was put right out there.

Shanahan? Done? He scored 40 goals, and had 41 assists that Season, clutch. Shanny wasn't "done". He was disgusted. He left. Period.

Cheli didn't get any ice time because Babcock wouldn't GIVE HIM any ice time. Or had you forgotten that? I'm sure you've probably forgotten the flap over J.R. comments that it was personal, and that Babcock "hated" Chelios, too. JR has big fat mouth, but what conceivable reason could he have for making a comment like that without SOME type of truth to the matter.

Again....you've MISSED the point.

These men, while "done" in YOUR eyes, were well respected TEAMMATES to the guys they played with. And if you think these guys form NO attachment to Teammates they've gone to war with, Season after Season, over the space of a decade and more.....

Than you know little to nothing about the Team dynamic. And when they watch their TEAMMATES and FRIENDS being treated like s***, simply because "time passes", they're thought is.....

"Time's passing for ME too. Will I be thrown under the bus once my best days are behind me, too? f*** THAT! I've given everything I HAD to this Team."

Where do you think the concept of Team Chemistry comes from?

Didn't Yzerman say that he wished he retired and didn't come back after the lockout? I think he said it during the Hall of Fame induction weekend.

He did.

“I really debated should I come back, is this the right thing or not?” the former Red Wings captain said Monday after his induction into the Hall. “Looking back on the thing, I wouldn’t have done it. If I had the opportunity (to do it again), I wouldn’t have come back and played.”

http://www.dailytribune.com/articles/2009/...3c102614609.txt

Edited February 7, 2010 by Howard He Do It?!

[clutchngrab 12]

It's a well documented fact that Yzerman didn't talk much. About anything. Ever.

That's why the rare occasions when he DID speak had that much more of an impact. Think 2002 WCQF's against Vancouver, down 0-2, and Steve Yzerman taking questions at the post-game PC, head down, staring at the table, saying in a barely audible voice:

"I guess this Series might not go seven Games after all." Pause....pause....pause.....then a look up, directly into the eyes of the guy who had asked the question, with eyes black as an abyss, and saying in an even QUIETER voice:

"That doesn't mean we're gonna lose, either."

Stevie picked that Team up and carried them on one knee.

And he was right. The Series DIDN'T go seven Games.

The Wings won in six.

que the violins

[Broken 16 381]

que the violins

I was thinking of something a little more upbeat... like perhaps the subtle, soothing sounds of Eye of the Tiger in the background.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Broken 16

[clutchngrab 12]

I'll address the points, and bear in mind, anything that I suggest in regards to the off-season is reflected just as I reflected it in the off-season and leading up to it. I'm not digging into hindsight here and as I've said, I don't think injuries have been our problem. Injuries have done more to suggest that our problem lies in our healthy team in my opinion. Anyways...

1. But Mule's goals were already a given in that scenario. As good or even better still doesn't account for the 80 goal hole left by 3 guys.

2. I agree in some ways about both Z and Dats, but at the same time, how much of that has to do with a lack of scoring talent around them I wonder? While Z has been a bit of an odder story, with Dats you've got a guy who I really think is playing great despite what some numbers suggest. As great as both of these guys are, they can't do it all themselves. If Datsyuk makes a brilliant play to set up a guy who lacks an offensive touch, what good is it? Nobody in this league does it well alone because even when it's not just play to play, having a well-rounded, balanced team helps maintain momentum as well which can make these guys better.

3. I think by years end they won't be so far removed from where they've been. Lidstrom was a 2nd half guy last year. As I've said for awhile, the hate was premature and we've clearly seen that in the last month.

4. Most know I don't think much of Flip's offensive abilities in general, but to be totally blunt, I think he's an absolutely s***ty goal scorer. I don't think he has ever shown that he has the tools to be a consistent goal-scorer either. He doesn't have a good shot, he's weak far too often in the offensive zone, easily getting knocked over and generally that just translates into him not finishing plays. He's a great defensive player when he wants to be (he cherry-picks too much at times for someone who can't score goals or make Datsyuk-esque plays) but that's not our weakness. At $3 million, he would've been the first guy sent packing to keep scoring as numerous people suggested around here and in the media.

5. I think it was a stretch to think anything of Leino. It would've been a stretch to say he'd be a bust, sure, but I think it's a stretch to think any rookie will give you consistent, strong play as well.

6. Bert's done that and perhaps more even and the season's not over. This guy could come up big in the post-season if we find a way to get things going at the right time. He'll be hungry as hell. Williams, eh, yeah, I don't know. As I've said, I probably would've been fine passing on him but I don't dislike it entirely at all. You're probably right in thinking that he'd be worth around 15 goals if not for injuries.

7. Helm has contributed more than last year but his role isn't as a goal scorer really anyways. Abs wasn't even supposed to be on the team.

8. Ericcson's the same deal as Leino. He's a rookie. It's dangerous to think too much or too little of rookies at any point in their rookie year. Let the year interpret itself and address what needs to be addressed over the summer and then start looking at what kind of a role the guy can really play. And I don't think anyone expected Lebda and Meech to do anything but suck anyways...

9. Kronwall is a force when he's in the lineup. I think he was the hardest injury for us to battle through. This injured team full of guys playing different roles, young kids and recent random signings ended up looking more like a team than our healthy lineup and Kronwall was a big part of fostering a lot of offense. Losing him hurt us tremendously. We were never shut out before he went down. Stuart's more the defensive end of that, and for the most part he's been great. Lately, I don't know what to say........I think he'll get it together, but lately it's been rough.

So when I look at this list, I say 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 and 9 are either poor assumptions or irrelevant to the problem. Remember, Bert and Williams were desperation signings done well after we lost all those guys. It's not as if they were part of the grand plan, so you can't really figure them in.

Bottom line to me is that we let 3 guys go who specialize in scoring. They accounted for 80 goals.

I think the simplest solution would have been to get Hossa signed at around a $5 million cap hit like the Chicago deal (add 40 goals with no defensive liability and tons of hustle), try to work with Hudler, but you stick to your guns and keep your nose to the ground for good deals and bring in those Bertuzzi and Eaves deals as they're good value deals to complement a big, proven star deal. Sure, you are guaranteed to have to dump guys like Flip (he'd be the biggest loss that we wouldn't have likely lost anyways), but he's overpaid on this team considering our two-way depth at center.

Hossa at $5 million >>>>>> Flip at $3 million

Either way it goes, we lose some guys, but in this case, we had no choice in what guys we lost and kept. We just let guys leave which left us picking from the scraps of what was left to put a team together. Bert and Eaves were great signings, but when you stop and think that Flip and Williams contracts would account for most of Hossa's new deal, it makes a lot of sense.

It could've been done, but Holland didn't have the foresight, gall, spine, whatever, to make it happen, and it was among his biggest mistakes as a GM. It's real tough for me to overlook that because it really is bigger than just Hossa.

What it ultimately reflects is that the guy didn't aggressively work to have a well-rounded team which is critically important, and this occurred mostly because the Wings are too soft in the cap era. Loyalty is great, but you've still got to put the best team on the ice every year. If that means trading or letting home grown talent go, so be it.

And it's not going to magically get better next year if we don't make some serious, even if seemingly lateral moves between now and the start of next season.

I'm not saying that all of these things would have come to pass, just that it was not unreasonable to expect most of them to happen from Hollands perspective. I don't think anything in this list is unreasonable by itself barring injury. Really, the only way the wings could have kept Hossa and Mule would have been to either trade Flip to free some cap, which they didn't want to do. I'm just curious what specific moves you, as GM, would have made to keep Hossa, Hudler and Mule?

[clutchngrab 12]

I was thinking of something a little more upbeat... like perhaps the subtle, soothing sounds of Eye of the Tiger in the background.

Maybe the theme from Chariots of Fire.

[Broken 16 381]

Maybe the theme from Chariots of Fire.

Nailed it.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

I'm so glad I missed this one today. Holy fail balls.

[titanium2 867]

This suuuuuuuuuuuuucks. What a s***ty day for Red Wings fans.

[Outsider 42]

Maybe the theme from Chariots of Fire.

Pfffft. Amateurs. The both of you.

"You're the Best" from The Karate Kid.

[clutchngrab 12]

If that's what you got from my post, then perhaps you should take a reading comprehension course at your local community college. Lids was the ONLY logical choice to follow Yzerman. Period.

It's not Stevie's absence which is the problem. Yzerman being ever so gently shown the door is the problem. Shanny feeling "unwelcome" is the problem. Cheli being FORCED OUT is the problem. Osgood being treated like s*** is the problem.

Again....to YOU these guys are just numbers on the roster. To the guys in the Room, they're "brothers". Some they've known for nearly their entire adult lives, AND their entire careers in some cases.

You can think to yourself that your brother is a douchebag all you want. You may even proclaim it to him to his face on a daily basis.

But when someone ELSE ***** slaps your brother, that just ain't gonna work.

Yeah, It was all downhill once Chelli was out of the Kumbaya circle. He had that perfect tenor.

[Broken 16 381]

Pfffft. Amateurs. The both of you.

"You're the Best" from The Karate Kid.

Sorry clutch... this is the new winner. By a landslide. Nicely done.

[clutchngrab 12]

Sorry clutch... this is the new winner. By a landslide. Nicely done.

lol. He even looks like a young Stevie Y.

[Electrophile 3,554]

We lost? I'm all shocked and s***.

Seriously this is getting old. I know teams go through peaks and valleys and we've been due for a s*** season just like everyone else, but can our s*** season be less like actual s***?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

People need to chill out. Yea they blew a 3 goal lead but it's not like they totally sucked. They completely outplayed the Kings in the 3rd period with the game tied and hit 2 posts within less than a minute. Either of those goes in and people on here aren't ready to give up on the team.

Relax. We are a point out of the playoffs with 25 more games to go and we are getting back the Mule the next game.

With all these guys coming back, it will take a little bit of time to get rolling.

I am encouraged by what I saw in the 1st and 3rd periods. This team is MUCH better than it was a month ago. Dats and Z are on fire and Flip is really playing great.

Patience....

In your previous life, you must have been the guide for the Donner party.

[titanium2 867]

Patience???? BUT I HATE LOSIIIIIIINGGGG!!!!!!!

AAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

(catches breath....)

[gcom007 1,465]

Based on what I've heard and read, I don't entirely doubt many of the things Outsider is saying. However, I don't know if that makes all the decisions wrong either.

While Babcock has come in and burned some bridges in some way with a different style of game and a different way of treating players, another thing that's changed dramatically is the structure of the game in general. I understand all the sentimental stuff from an emotional standpoint and I think loyalty is a great thing and something that's defined this team for a long time. But in the cap era, you've got to balance loyalty with logic.

Have I heard that Yzerman would have played another year? Yes, and it's from people who absolutely would know. But I also think Yzerman saw the writing on the wall as much as certain parties within the organization that thought it might be best for him to move on. He understood the situation and while it's hard for any warrior to give up the game, I think he knew that it would probably be best to move on. He understands as well if not better than most that the game is changing and new mentalities that are perhaps less "personal" and "fuzzy" are necessary to remain competitive.

And it goes without saying that Shanahan is a loyalist to the old guard, and it's well known that he didn't get along with Babcock, so it should be no surprise that he left. Remember, he LEFT. He was offered a contract from the Wings for the same amount of money as he was offered in New York and didn't accept it. And make no mistake, while he didn't like Babcock and wasn't lying about being part of the old guard, he absolutely was operating in his own self-interest in heading to New York. He too saw the writing on the wall as well as the outline of his post-playing career in the distance, and he followed it to New York.

And Chelios? I mean, I have no doubt that he and Babcock had issues, and I doubt Roenick was lying. But again, so many of these players have issues with coaches, especially coaches like Babcock. I take the Chelios issue with a grain of salt as the reality is that he was an old guy who was more of a coach than a player. Holland said we didn't have room for him as a player. I don't care who's world you're in, so long as the cap is there, he's dead right. He said go try to find a job playing and if you don't, give me a call at the end of the summer, and I have no doubt that he would've been plugged into a coaching/development role real quick. But Chelios still wanted to play. Fine, but don't put it on Babcock or Holland. He made the choice to leave the organization because he still wanted to play and we logically didn't have room for him.

So I think things are changing within the organization based on what it once was, but I see that change as going hand in hand mostly with the evolution of the league in general. I think Babcock has his own way of doing things as well like any coach, and in many ways he's a great pick for a cap era team as he can get a lot out of some of these kids that guys like Bowman used to trade away. In the cap era, it's a lot tougher to not rely on a lot of kids getting pad $500k so having Babcock is a strength. With that comes a leadership model that's a little different as well, but I don't think throwing Babcock under the bus entirely is necessary just because things are different.

I'll agree that I think he's done a terrible job of dealing with Osgood and the goalies in general through the years, but just like Holland has weaknesses, so does Babcock. Even Scotty Bowman wasn't perfect. Hopefully he'll continue to improve there, just as I hope Holland becomes more aggressive and hard nosed in the wake of a changing game.

And as far as the leadership in general, as much as I may question Lidstrom and Zetterberg in some ways, it's not like I see anyone else in the room who should have that spot right now, and it's not as if they're terrible. We're not as bad of a team as it seems at time and again, nothing's perfect.

But I think they're facing a big test here. Now is the time to call this situation what it is and get honest with everybody about it and how they're going to fix it. Continuing to rely on canned answers only furthers the idea that they're not addressing the real issues. If they really wanted to tackle this, they'd make a bold move. Part of that is by making yourself accountable to the public.

Nick Lidstrom needs to call an end to the bulls*** while all the cameras and reporters are there. He needs to tell us that the bulls*** is over and they are going to score more, check harder, play tighter, whatever it takes to WIN. No more bad breaks. No more goal posts. No more injuries.

"We will win."

It's as simple as that, and I really don't know if anyone's really said it. We all get that there are injuries, and I've given this team all the grace in the world in that sense, but it's getting real old.

"We will win."

No more excuses. No more bulls***. It's time to make a real statement on and off the ice.

Extra on Yzerman:

Yzerman was great, and anyone who thinks he wasn't a tremendous motivator and leader of this team is out of their minds. Sometimes not saying much can say a lot when you're out there playing the way he did night after night. And as was said, when you're known to be quiet, your words when used have tremendously more value.

Leaders are rarely jaw-flappers, though that's often a misconception among people who aren't leaders. They're not even always the smartest or "best" people at any given job. Make no mistake, talent and knowledge certainly help, but they're hardly the end all of the matter. Leaders are people have the ability to inspire others to push themselves to be the best they can be. It's not necessarily being the guy who's always talking so much as knowing when to speak up, what to say and how to say it. But mostly, leaders LEAD by example and no one on the Red Wings in the last 20 years has lead better by sheer example than Steve Yzerman. It's most important because if you aren't setting the standard in your work ethic, in doing the most with the cards you were dealt, your words will mean nothing.

That's why Draper's a great leader. He's obviously not the most skilled guy, but the guy pushes himself day in and day out. He's got more heart than most guys and when you've got a guy like Draper pushing, before he even has to say a word, he's going to make you look bad real quick if you don't follow suit in working your ass off.

Future Leadership Watch: I really like Eaves as a potential long-term leader on this team. I think he's a real smart kid who's also a real hard worker, a smart hockey player, involved wherever he can be involved, etc. I see a lot of leadership potential in him and I think as he grows, especially if he sticks with us, he very well could develop into a Captain candidate or at least an Alternate spot.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Lidstrom isn't the kind of guy who's going to say that, though.

"We will win". First that's plagiarism from Messier and Namath, second it's not in Lidstrom's personality to do that.

I think this team is as cooked as a goose. That statement game you were referring to I thought was being made during the first period. Next thing you know, I found out I was wrong.

One and two game winning streaks is all this team is good for. That's why they're a .500 team right now and not even that actually.

[FedorovMan91 1]

I watched the game and it was surely disappointing. To be honest in myself, with this streak and game playing level thorughout the year, I do not think we are going to make the playoff this year and this trend can go for one more year. Although I hate Roenick, I think he made right statement about the future of the Red Wings. Since we locked up Zetterberg and Franzen, we cannot burn the house and rebuild the team. Besides, since we were consisently too good last 20 years, we do not have good potential players to lead the team in the future except for guys like Filppula from MY VIEW.

At this point, I think we need to rethink of what is true loyalty. Holland and the organization have done everything for players who have been playing great for the Red Wings. I think Draper, Maltby, and other old guys except for Lidstrom must be gone after the season. Since the issue of age in this team has been on the surface for a long time, I think now is the time to make the team younger.

I hope the organiztion still shows loyalty to great players but the organization must not be too kind to players. Some players look lazy and imcompetitible anymore.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Knowing this team, we'll lose tuesday, win against San Jose, then lose to Ottawa. Seriously, this team only looks interested in playing the Sharks.

[zettie85 106]

If he was such a dick to Yzerman, why would Yzerman choose him to coach Canada at the Olympics?

He knows that Babcock is an amazing coach. He has (briefly) played with him, and likely has regular conversations with him.

Based on your theory there's two possibilities that would be the basis for what you think:

1. Babcock is incompetent, doesn't understand team dynamics, and just doesn't understand what he's doing with his supposed treatment of certain vets.

2. Babcock has a vendetta against veteran players.

Obviously Yzerman disagrees with #1.

And #2 is ridiculous.

Is it possible your theory just stems from the Osgood love? I don't think there's any real basis for the Babcock hate.

And @ zettie85:

Please, for the love of god, never question Yzerman's leadership again.

Don't worry. Just trying to prove a point. Heard it from a very good source though, straight out of the locker room. He was drunk though.lol

[dragonballgtz 273]

They played so much hockey the past seasons, and now it caught up with their bodies and heads and the injuries and lack of essential hockey things reveal themselves this season.

Didnt the wings go the the WCF 4 years in a row back in the mid 90s?

People need to get their heads out of their asses and play a full 60 minutes.

[zettie85 106]

Based on what I've heard and read, I don't entirely doubt many of the things Outsider is saying. However, I don't know if that makes all the decisions wrong either.

While Babcock has come in and burned some bridges in some way with a different style of game and a different way of treating players, another thing that's changed dramatically is the structure of the game in general. I understand all the sentimental stuff from an emotional standpoint and I think loyalty is a great thing and something that's defined this team for a long time. But in the cap era, you've got to balance loyalty with logic.

Have I heard that Yzerman would have played another year? Yes, and it's from people who absolutely would know. But I also think Yzerman saw the writing on the wall as much as certain parties within the organization that thought it might be best for him to move on. He understood the situation and while it's hard for any warrior to give up the game, I think he knew that it would probably be best to move on. He understands as well if not better than most that the game is changing and new mentalities that are perhaps less "personal" and "fuzzy" are necessary to remain competitive.

And it goes without saying that Shanahan is a loyalist to the old guard, and it's well known that he didn't get along with Babcock, so it should be no surprise that he left. Remember, he LEFT. He was offered a contract from the Wings for the same amount of money as he was offered in New York and didn't accept it. And make no mistake, while he didn't like Babcock and wasn't lying about being part of the old guard, he absolutely was operating in his own self-interest in heading to New York. He too saw the writing on the wall as well as the outline of his post-playing career in the distance, and he followed it to New York.

And Chelios? I mean, I have no doubt that he and Babcock had issues, and I doubt Roenick was lying. But again, so many of these players have issues with coaches, especially coaches like Babcock. I take the Chelios issue with a grain of salt as the reality is that he was an old guy who was more of a coach than a player. Holland said we didn't have room for him as a player. I don't care who's world you're in, so long as the cap is there, he's dead right. He said go try to find a job playing and if you don't, give me a call at the end of the summer, and I have no doubt that he would've been plugged into a coaching/development role real quick. But Chelios still wanted to play. Fine, but don't put it on Babcock or Holland. He made the choice to leave the organization because he still wanted to play and we logically didn't have room for him.

So I think things are changing within the organization based on what it once was, but I see that change as going hand in hand mostly with the evolution of the league in general. I think Babcock has his own way of doing things as well like any coach, and in many ways he's a great pick for a cap era team as he can get a lot out of some of these kids that guys like Bowman used to trade away. In the cap era, it's a lot tougher to not rely on a lot of kids getting pad $500k so having Babcock is a strength. With that comes a leadership model that's a little different as well, but I don't think throwing Babcock under the bus entirely is necessary just because things are different.

I'll agree that I think he's done a terrible job of dealing with Osgood and the goalies in general through the years, but just like Holland has weaknesses, so does Babcock. Even Scotty Bowman wasn't perfect. Hopefully he'll continue to improve there, just as I hope Holland becomes more aggressive and hard nosed in the wake of a changing game.

And as far as the leadership in general, as much as I may question Lidstrom and Zetterberg in some ways, it's not like I see anyone else in the room who should have that spot right now, and it's not as if they're terrible. We're not as bad of a team as it seems at time and again, nothing's perfect.

But I think they're facing a big test here. Now is the time to call this situation what it is and get honest with everybody about it and how they're going to fix it. Continuing to rely on canned answers only furthers the idea that they're not addressing the real issues. If they really wanted to tackle this, they'd make a bold move. Part of that is by making yourself accountable to the public.

Nick Lidstrom needs to call an end to the bulls*** while all the cameras and reporters are there. He needs to tell us that the bulls*** is over and they are going to score more, check harder, play tighter, whatever it takes to WIN. No more bad breaks. No more goal posts. No more injuries.

"We will win."

It's as simple as that, and I really don't know if anyone's really said it. We all get that there are injuries, and I've given this team all the grace in the world in that sense, but it's getting real old.

"We will win."

No more excuses. No more bulls***. It's time to make a real statement on and off the ice.

Extra on Yzerman:

Yzerman was great, and anyone who thinks he wasn't a tremendous motivator and leader of this team is out of their minds. Sometimes not saying much can say a lot when you're out there playing the way he did night after night. And as was said, when you're known to be quiet, your words when used have tremendously more value.

Leaders are rarely jaw-flappers, though that's often a misconception among people who aren't leaders. They're not even always the smartest or "best" people at any given job. Make no mistake, talent and knowledge certainly help, but they're hardly the end all of the matter. Leaders are people have the ability to inspire others to push themselves to be the best they can be. It's not necessarily being the guy who's always talking so much as knowing when to speak up, what to say and how to say it. But mostly, leaders LEAD by example and no one on the Red Wings in the last 20 years has lead better by sheer example than Steve Yzerman. It's most important because if you aren't setting the standard in your work ethic, in doing the most with the cards you were dealt, your words will mean nothing.

That's why Draper's a great leader. He's obviously not the most skilled guy, but the guy pushes himself day in and day out. He's got more heart than most guys and when you've got a guy like Draper pushing, before he even has to say a word, he's going to make you look bad real quick if you don't follow suit in working your ass off.

Future Leadership Watch: I really like Eaves as a potential long-term leader on this team. I think he's a real smart kid who's also a real hard worker, a smart hockey player, involved wherever he can be involved, etc. I see a lot of leadership potential in him and I think as he grows, especially if he sticks with us, he very well could develop into a Captain candidate or at least an Alternate spot.

That is why if Nik retires I say Drapes gets the C if he sticks around. About Yzerman, I was proving a point. Heard it from a guy who was on the cup teams. ALL.

[gcom007 1,465]

That is why if Nik retires I say Drapes gets the C if he sticks around. About Yzerman, I was proving a point. Heard it from a guy who was on the cup teams. ALL.

I don't doubt that someone might say that. I just don't put much stock in the opinion.

Lots of people have lots of definitions about leadership and what the C means. Different people have different personalities as well that will simply interpret things a certain way. And to them, they may be right, and that's fine. No one is going to make everyone happy.

I've gotta say though, since you kinda narrowed it down to the possibility of five guys, I can imagine some interesting stuff flying around. I've had multiple experiences with 3 of those 5 guys while they were in drunken states over the years. It definitely can get interesting...