Should Valtteri Filppula be traded?

[Z and D for the C 712]

Its simple theres no way he goes up .14 pts per game if hes played all the games, in the last 2 seasons hes improved by .4 and thats with increasingly better linemates and more ice time, this year he has about the same ice time and s***tier line mates, there is NO way his production jumps 28% when wings production has drop by 1/3 this season, superstars would be hard pressed to have such a large jump in production on even good teams, Flip would NEVER have that PPG rate if he was healthy the whole season, and he wont end the season that high, he will cool off. If you believe that Flip can magically increase his production over a season by 28% while the team as the whole have drop by over 30% then you really are dumb and shouldnt be debating.

His production went up 100% from his first to his second season, and now his production can't increase just a quarter of that while he is still developing?

And sorry, your "increasingly better linemates and more ice time" argument is also simply wrong. I know you weren't expecting this but last year, his TOI per game went down almost a whole minute from 16:56 in 07/08 to 16:06 in 08/09. His PP TOI was cut in half. His position on the depth chart went down. Despite all this he still managed to get 4 more points than the previous year. 2008-2009 for Filppula was a developmental enigma and frankly should be ignored. But it won't be, because the desire to use the out-of-context information is too overwhelming.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Z and D for the C

[Finnish Wing 110]

Points, not PPG hes 81st

He's missed 26 games this season for God's sake.

[kylee 727]

jury is still out on Filppula. just because the team is collectively in a rut right now doesn't mean the guy should be shipped off.

[Z and D for the C 712]

He's missed 26 games this season for God's sake.

Yeah but if he included that info then he'd be wrong. Mis-information was the only way he could counter your legit point and appear correct.

[Shaman 713]

Yeah but if he included that info then he'd be wrong. Mis-information was the only way he could counter your legit point and appear correct.

Youre assuming his production over those games would be at the same constant as it has been since he returned, you can just as easily make the assumption that he'd have a massive slump over those games and his PPG would be insanely low. You can't assume his production would be constant, because hes never been a constant producer.

[Finnish Wing 110]

Youre assuming his production over those games would be at the same constant as it has been since he returned, you can just as easily make the assumption that he'd have a massive slump over those games and his PPG would be insanely low. You can't assume his production would be constant, because hes never been a constant producer.

Even if you counted his ppg of this whole season - also the pre-injury time - he's still a 2nd line center. Edited February 13, 2010 by Finnish Wing

[Shaman 713]

Let me make this clear, Flip is a good player, but D and Z for C and Finnish you talk about him like hes going to score 70 points every season and compete with Zetterberg and Datsyuk for 2nd like Centering duties, that will NEVER happen, when Flip does do second line duties it won't be because anything hes done, but because Z and D are together for a period of time. He is a 3rd line center, he is a good 3rd line center, he is not this homerun second line center you keep saying he is, I will literally eat my hat if he ever scores more than 69 points in a season (Barring him playing with a superstar sniper). He is a DEFENSIVE forward with SOME play making abilities (So help me god if any of you say 'well dats said this' ill just show you 10000000 examples of players on teams saying that, like Justin Verlander saying Bonderman looks like he did when he was projected to be an ace in 06 this year, players don't trash their own team mates) he can't score goals, and his upperbody strength is sometimes abit suspect (its hard to tell, some games he gets man handled, while others he does make strong plays). Hes peaked on the wings as the everyday 3rd line center and occasional 2nd line center when theres a shake up, and if you believe one day he will be the everyday second line center, youre just nuts.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Let me make this clear, Flip is a good player, but D and Z for C and Finnish you talk about him like hes going to score 70 points every season and compete with Zetterberg and Datsyuk for 2nd like Centering duties, that will NEVER happen, when Flip does do second line duties it won't be because anything hes done, but because Z and D are together for a period of time. He is a 3rd line center, he is a good 3rd line center, he is not this homerun second line center you keep saying he is, I will literally eat my hat if he ever scores more than 69 points in a season (Barring him playing with a superstar sniper). He is a DEFENSIVE forward with SOME play making abilities (So help me god if any of you say 'well dats said this' ill just show you 10000000 examples of players on teams saying that, like Justin Verlander saying Bonderman looks like he did when he was projected to be an ace in 06 this year, players don't trash their own team mates) he can't score goals, and his upperbody strength is sometimes abit suspect (its hard to tell, some games he gets man handled, while others he does make strong plays). Hes peaked on the wings as the everyday 3rd line center and occasional 2nd line center when theres a shake up, and if you believe one day he will be the everyday second line center, youre just nuts.

This is what I got out of that: "You guys are making too many logical points for me to logically argue against and not end up looking stupid, so I'm just going to embellish your arguments to make you look dumb and rehash what I've said despite it being already argued against in hopes that the wordiness of it makes me look correct".

Edited February 13, 2010 by Z and D for the C

[Shaman 713]

This is what I got out of that: "You guys are making too many logical points for me to logically argue against and not end up looking stupid, so I'm just going to rehash what I've said in hopes that the wordiness of it makes me look correct".

Ok, you have yet to sucessfully counter the following points:

#1 How can you use an incomplete sample size of 34 games and 20 good games to declare him to be the best choice for 2nd line center and that hes a good one as compared to rest of the League (note that in the group of 2nd line centers you have Malkin, Tomas Fleischmann, etc etc)?

#2 How can you logically say that Flip will have a PPG rate higher than .6 at the end of the season given his track record of not showing up offensively in the past? Especially when the team is getting healthy and him being a 3rd line center with line mates that are worse than last season?

#3 How do you address the weaknesses in his game that you always over look?

a. Weak play on the boards

b. Inability to score even on the open net

#4 Where do you think he will peak in his scoring, and if its over 60 points in a season, how do you see that ever happening?

#5 Why would you keep Flip over a natural goal scorer?

#6 How do you define the role of a 2nd line center?

#7 How is he not the best trade bait to address the wings biggest problem, goal scoring?

Edited February 13, 2010 by Shaman464

[Datsyerberger 279]

Ok, you have yet to sucessfully counter the following points:

#1 How can you use an incomplete sample size of 34 games and 20 good games to declare him to be the best choice for 2nd line center and that hes a good one as compared to rest of the League (note that in the group of 2nd line centers you have Malkin, Tomas Fleischmann, Patrick Marleau, etc etc)?

I'll take a crack at that, just because it's so brutally wrong. First, regarding Malkin: he plays first line minutes. That's a fact easily verified before you post. Further, actual knowledge of the subject at hand would lead to realization that the Pens use a 1A/1B line setup because of their center depth, rather than a 1st and 2nd line proper.

Secondly, Marleau is and has been playing on the wing with Joe and Heater the entire year.

Fleischmann is the only example appropriate to the discussion. No wonder they're tired of debating with you; your use of incorrect facts which could easily be verified in a half minute check in 2/3 of your example does all the work for them.

Actually, I'll address this one, too:

#7 How is he not the best trade bait to address the wings biggest problem, goal scoring?

Because ideally, for the caliber of player we would want to acquire with a player like Flip, we would be looking for a young or at least not aged goalscorer on a multi-year contract. A player as such would not be available normally except on a rebuilding team, which would more likely be looking for draft picks and prospects if they're trading young goalscorers of 2nd line or better caliber. Thus, while Flip would be excellent trade bait, he's not the best for what we're looking for.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Datsyerberger

[Guest Crymson]

This is what I got out of that: "You guys are making too many logical points for me to logically argue against and not end up looking stupid, so I'm just going to embellish your arguments to make you look dumb and rehash what I've said despite it being already argued against in hopes that the wordiness of it makes me look correct".

You forgot the following: "I created this thread and instead of allowing that I may not have done as much research as I should have---I cannot, as my pride does not allow such---I am going to continue making extremely weak and futile arguments and ultimately turn to attempts at putting down those who argue against me."

The above behavior is extremely common here, sadly.

[Shaman 713]

I'll take a crack at that, just because it's so brutally wrong. First, regarding Malkin: he plays first line minutes. That's a fact easily verified before you post. Further, actual knowledge of the subject at hand would lead to realization that the Pens use a 1A/1B line setup because of their center depth, rather than a 1st and 2nd line proper.

Secondly, Marleau is and has been playing on the wing with Joe and Heater the entire year.

Fleischmann is the only example appropriate to the discussion. No wonder they're tired of debating with you; your use of incorrect facts which could easily be verified in a half minute check in 2/3 of your example does all the work for them.

I would disagree, there is a clear 'first line' in Pittsburgh, while youre right, they are usually a wash in minutes played, if you watch them play, in key situations youre going to see the Crosby line on the ice 90% of the time they do have a clear #1 line, while you can argue that Malkin's line is 1b i will argue its 2nd just for the fact Dan Bylsma clearly favors the Crosby line. TOI wouldnt be where id look in Pittsburgh for which line is 1 and which is 2. As for the Marleau gaff, you are correct, and I retract it.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Shaman464

[Shaman 713]

You forgot the following: "I created this thread and instead of allowing that I may not have done as much research as I should have---I cannot, as my pride does not allow such---I am going to continue making extremely weak and futile arguments and ultimately turn to attempts at putting down those who argue against me."

The above behavior is extremely common here, sadly.

Hey look, personal attacks, gotta love LGW.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

I voted for "Yes, for whatever the Wings can get for him", mostly because I was just annoyed with the overvaluing of Filppula.

Seriously... if you guys wouldn't try to get Nathan Horton or someone like him by giving up Filppula... I don't even know what to say. For the good of the team, we need less passive players, and more guys willing to put the puck on net. This team isn't working, whether Filppula is a 2nd/3rd line center... whatever he is, it's not helping the team as a whole. And I feel the same way about D and Z's lackluster play this year, but I think they're truly top line centers.

[Z and D for the C 712]

1. Playing on the second line Filppula has 16 points in the last 21 games. That's good for more than 60 points, and if he continues to play on the 2nd line this season I think that ratio would continue to improve. Now I'm not saying that if Filppula played 82 games this season that he would absolutely get 60 points (though that is my opinion if he plays on the 2nd line), I'm just giving a value to his point totals over the past 21 games. I think 60 points is more than good enough to play on a second line. And again I'm repeating myself (as I'm sure I will again and again) when I remind that Filppula has played with third liners getting those 16 points. Give him Franzen and that impoves even more.

For your player comparisons, Marleau probably hasn't spent 1 minute centering the 2nd line this year. Washington is an incredibly offensive team and Fleischmann is one of your better second liners I'm sure. Malkin would be the #1 center on any team other than Pittsburgh for obvious reasons.

Here is one of mine: Antione Vermette plays on the BJ's first line (I believe) and his paec is comparable to Filppula's. Mike Fisher plays on Ottowa's second line and his pace is comparable to Filppula's. Jarret Stoll plays ont he Kings second line and has comparable numbers. I could go on.

2. Filppula's current pace is at .65 PPG over the entire season. He is going to play 21 games left in the season (barring injury) and to keep his overall .6 PPG pace he only needs 11 points. Even on the third line he can keep .5 PPG easily. He won't finish under .6 PPG.

3. I disagree about him being weak on the boards, and he is not a finisher. Saying he can't finish "even on an open net" is taken entirely out of context. I was a near impossible angle for a lefty when he missed that and it happened in a split second. His positives outweigh his negatives. He has more good plays than bad plays.

4. I think he will peak at 70 points, if he plays on the second line.

5. I think that Datsyuk and Zetterberg won't perform well enough on separate lines to warrant them being kept apart. I think they should be kept together and Filppula should center the second line. If you trade Filppula for a scoring winger you don't have a second line center. However, I have said multiple times that if Filppula will never play on the Red Wings second line when we're healthy over an entire season EVER, then he should be traded as it is a waste of his talent.

6. I answered that in the first part.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Hey look, personal attacks, gotta love LGW.

There is no personal attack there, unless you think a personal attack is calling your arguments weak.

[Shaman 713]

There is no personal attack there, unless you think a personal attack is calling your arguments weak.

you, no, crymson, always.

[chrisdetroit 189]

We already blew it on the best deal out there. We should've traded him last year and used the cap relief to pitch a better deal to Hossa.

Hossa at $5 mil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Flip at $3 mil...

In every way imaginable...

Flip at $3M = Hossa at $7.45M

In last year's playoff. You know playoffs - when it counts

[redwingfan19 293]

i have a source telling me that filpula and kindl will be traded to florida for nathan horton and a 3rd (R4)

more to come...

[mackel 768]

i have a source telling me that filpula and kindl will be traded to florida for nathan horton and a 3rd (R4)

more to come...

If this were true it would be an excellent trade for the wings... Horton is a beast! and keep in mind you have to give something to get something

[Datsyerberger 279]

i have a source telling me that filpula and kindl will be traded to florida for nathan horton and a 3rd (R4)

more to come...

If there's any bit of truth to that, it's not happening until after the Olympic break.. and a lot can change in two weeks.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

i have a source telling me that filpula and kindl will be traded to florida for nathan horton and a 3rd (R4)

more to come...

Is your source a man named Eklund?

Edit: Not to mention, Horton makes 4 million a year, lol.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Jesusberg

[RedWingAbner 13]

Hahaha.... well, I guess you'd rather have this be the "RedWingAbner Announcement Board" than a discussion board. What you have done since re-appearing recently has basically been to just make oft-absurd statements and ignore anything that anyone says that disagrees with those statements.

P.S.: You have no argument.

PS-- Nobody gives a s*** what you say.

As long as it's the RedWingAbner announcement board, that is.

Ease up. So, since I have been a member since 2004 and don't post every day....I must be gone? That makes sense.

I've been on the boards long enough to know that you generally don't have much to add to a conversation other than to drive the thread into the realm of insults and personal attacks, so I am gonna ignore you like the chirping bird that nests over my car. Does it exist for other things than to make noise and s*** on my vehicle? Probably. Do I care? No, it's just annoying, but not worth dealing with. Nice talking to ya, but at least Z+D+C and Finnish Wing have an exchange with me that makes the debate somewhat fun.

[Finnish Wing 110]

i have a source telling me that filpula and kindl will be traded to florida for nathan horton and a 3rd (R4)

more to come...

I'd definitely support that trade. That doesn't mean I back up my words about Filppula, but Horton would add more top scoring to the team.

There is one big question about that trade though. How good will Kindl be? He has obviously a lot of potential and has been growing in our system. He has played below expectations recently though. He's a big guy who still an offensive defenseman, kinda like Ericsson. I have a feeling that Kindl will end up being at least a top4 defenseman.

[Guest Crymson]

Hey look, personal attacks, gotta love LGW.

Hey look, I was describing a type of behavior that you're subscribing to in this thread. Apparently it hit a nerve of truth, as you felt it necessary to respond with an accusation rather than responding to the post itself.