thedisappearer 291 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 We should be able to trade underperforming players for superior players *and* a draft pick. Anything less is a failure on Holland's part. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) there are only 16 teams that make the playoffs 32 centers on play of teams, the other 28 centers shouldn't even be in this conversation. That is one of the most embarrassing arguments I have seen. But no, you're right, Spezza, Roy, and Getzlaf are all terrible centers because their teams blow. Edited January 2, 2011 by Datsyerberger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shaman 713 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) That is one of the most embarrassing arguments I have seen. But no, you're right, Spezza, Roy, and Getzlaf are all terrible centers because their teams blow. Those are the borderline teams, I was talking about Columbus, Florida, Edmonton, New York Islanders, etc, teams that have been bad year in and out and that have almost zero depth outside of a top line. PS Anaheim is sitting in 8th. As for Spezza he hasn't been the same without Heatly, and Roy I really don't know about him, I like him a lot, but that 80 point season seems more and more like a fluke, and that hes a career 60 point player. Edited January 2, 2011 by Shaman464 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Those are the borderline teams, I was talking about Columbus, Florida, Edmonton, New York Islanders, etc, teams that have been bad year in and out and that have almost zero depth outside of a top line. PS Anaheim is sitting in 8th. Hey, okay, let's see Flip's status among players whose teams are top 16 in win % (or rather, top 8 from each conf): Points: 28th Goals: t16th Takeaways: 15th Eh, I could keep going with stats, but this is sort of tedious. Basic idea: your argument is horrendously flawed. Funny, though. Edited January 2, 2011 by Datsyerberger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shaman 713 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Hey, okay, let's see Flip's status among players whose teams are top 16 in win % (or rather, top 8 from each conf): Points: 28th Goals: t16th Takeaways: 15th Eh, I could keep going with stats, but this is sort of tedious. Basic idea: your argument is horrendously flawed. Funny, though. Takeaways isnt an offensive stat, Faceoff % and power play points would be better indicators. So of the two stats you used to make your point 28th in points means hes better than only 4 centers in this group, if hes tied 16th in goals that means hes near the bottom in assists which is more of his game than goal scoring. Also theres no ties in this, after 82 games there can be ties, but with differences in games played who has the most goals in least number of games would be 16 follow logically enough by the person with the next fewest. Edited January 2, 2011 by Shaman464 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Takeaways isnt an offensive stat, Faceoff % and power play points would be better indicators. So of the two stats you used to make your point 28th in points means hes better than only 4 centers in this group, if hes tied 16th in goals that means hes near the bottom in assists which is more of his game than goal scoring. I started to use takeaways in defensive benchmarks, but started getting bored with counting out teams. Offensively, it seems he's improved his goalscoring this year. Works for me. If he's clearly among 2nd line centers for points, in regards to playoff teams (which includes groups of centers such as Crosby/Malkin, Richards/Carter, Sedin/Kesler, etc), and at the top end of 2nd line centers for goalscoring, then yea.. I'm not really sure where the merit to your argument is. Edited January 2, 2011 by Datsyerberger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shaman 713 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 I started to use takeaways in defensive benchmarks, but started getting bored with counting out teams. Offensively, it seems he's improved his goalscoring this year. Works for me. If he's clearly among 2nd line centers for points, in regards to playoff teams (which includes groups of centers such as Crosby/Malkin, Richards/Carter, Sedin/Kesler, etc), and at the top end of 2nd line centers for goalscoring, then yea.. I'm not really sure where the merit to your argument is. Hes 28th out of 32 hes not really with them, hes at the bottom end on a team that LEADS the league in goals for. Its not like the team hes on isn't scoring and hes suffering a lack of assists because of it. Hes not even the second best center on the Wings team, hes third. So my argument has a lot of merit, his point production isn't on par with the average 2nd line center on a decent team, which goes back to my original point through all of this, hes an top end third line center with great offensive upside. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 Hes 28th out of 32 hes not really with them, hes at the bottom end on a team that LEADS the league in goals for. Its not like the team hes on isn't scoring and hes suffering a lack of assists because of it. Hes not even the second best center on the Wings team, hes third. So my argument has a lot of merit, his point production isn't on par with the average 2nd line center on a decent team, which goes back to my original point through all of this, hes an top end third line center with great offensive upside. Okay, so, here's the list of people ahead of him on playoff teams (top 8 win % per conference) in points and goals: Actually, just to add, here's those centers on playoff teams presently better than him in points and goals: Points: Crosby Stamkos H. Sedin B. Richards Kopitar Duchene E. Staal M. Richards Backstrom Stastny Thornton Kesler Carter Dubinsky Malkin Plekanec Ribeiro Couture Pavelski Steen Krejci Laich Stepan Stoll Bergeron Boyle Little Goals: Crosby Stamkos Kesler Couture B. Richards Carter Dubinsky Kopitar Duchene Stastny Boyle M. Richards Malkin Datsyuk Steen Backstorm Plekanec Stepan Thornton Little (looks like I miscounted slightly on goals, my mistake) So, who on those lists do we trade for, how do we afford them, and why does the other team (a playoff team) give them up? And how does said player improve on Flip, taking into account offense + defense? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shaman 713 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Okay, so, here's the list of people ahead of him on playoff teams (top 8 win % per conference) in points and goals: Actually, just to add, here's those centers on playoff teams presently better than him in points and goals: Points: Crosby Stamkos H. Sedin B. Richards Kopitar Duchene E. Staal M. Richards Backstrom Stastny Thornton Kesler Carter Dubinsky Malkin Plekanec Ribeiro Couture Pavelski Steen Krejci Laich Stepan Stoll Bergeron Boyle Little Goals: Crosby Stamkos Kesler Couture B. Richards Carter Dubinsky Kopitar Duchene Stastny Boyle M. Richards Malkin Datsyuk Steen Backstorm Plekanec Stepan Thornton Little (looks like I miscounted slightly on goals, my mistake) So, who on those lists do we trade for, how do we afford them, and why does the other team (a playoff team) give them up? And how does said player improve on Flip, taking into account offense + defense? Zetterberg... Ps 4 out of 32 is a 12.5% difference, thats more than a little bit where I come from. Edited January 2, 2011 by Shaman464 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Z and D for the C 712 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 there are only 16 teams that make the playoffs 32 centers on play of teams, the other 28 centers shouldn't even be in this conversation. Oh, you want to talk about playoffs? Fun! Last year in the playoffs, Flip was 23rd in points per game among centers and 50th among all forwards. And in 2009, it gets even better! Filppula was 39th in points, among ALL forwards and 19th among centers. And this is playing half of the games on the third line. In 2008, he was 32nd among centers and 74th among all forwards. And this is one year removed from his rookie season. You'd be real dumb to dog Flip on his playoffs performance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shaman 713 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Oh, you want to talk about playoffs? Fun! Last year in the playoffs, Flip was 23rd in points per game among centers and 50th among all forwards. And in 2009, it gets even better! Filppula was 39th in points, among ALL forwards and 19th among centers. And this is playing half of the games on the third line. In 2008, he was 32nd among centers and 74th among all forwards. And this is one year removed from his rookie season. You'd be real dumb to dog Flip on his playoffs performance. And you're retarded if you think I was talking about the playoffs. I was talking about players who play on the top 16 teams in the NHL (ie the playoff teams), not about playoff stats. We were changing the sample size to disinclude teams that were in the bottom 14. This is purely regular season stats of the top 16 teams this season as it stands so far. Reading comprehension is your friend. Edited January 2, 2011 by Shaman464 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Zetterberg... Ps 4 out of 32 is a 12.5% difference, thats more than a little bit where I come from. I counted only one of the eurotwins as a center, as together only 1 of them plays as a center. NHL additionally lists him as a LW for this year. However, that's a complete dodge to answering my questions... and I'm not sure we can trade for Zetterberg anyhow. He's pretty valuable to his team. Edited January 2, 2011 by Datsyerberger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shaman 713 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 I counted only one of the eurotwins as a center, as together only 1 of them plays as a center. NHL additionally lists him as a LW for this year. However, that's a complete dodge to answering my questions... and I'm not sure we can trade for Zetterberg anyhow. He's pretty valuable to his team. My point has been if you read my earlier posts was that the Wings would move Zetterberg to the second line as center and trade Flip for an offensive winger. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 My point has been if you read my earlier posts was that the Wings would move Zetterberg to the second line as center and trade Flip for an offensive winger. Who's an offensive winger (preferably a 1st/2nd line tweener) that you think we could trade Flip for? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Konnan511 1,736 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 Games are won on the ice, not on the boxscore. You can't measure intangibles on the boxscore. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Z and D for the C 712 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) And you're retarded if you think I was talking about the playoffs. I was talking about players who play on the top 16 teams in the NHL (ie the playoff teams), not about playoff stats. We were changing the sample size to disinclude teams that were in the bottom 14. This is purely regular season stats of the top 16 teams this season as it stands so far. Reading comprehension is your friend. If you only want to count playoffs teams, then wouldn't playoffs stats be the perfect comparison...? Also even ignoring the facts that his playoff production damn near puts him in the first line category, let alone the second line category. I don't think you're the one to be throwing around insults here. Edited January 2, 2011 by Z and D for the C Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shaman 713 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) If you only want to count playoffs teams, then wouldn't playoffs stats be the perfect comparison...? Because the operative term in this discussion is THIS season. This season hes playing in a second line role, getting power play time and playing with better players, but his production levels have not changed. Edited January 2, 2011 by Shaman464 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Z and D for the C 712 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 Because the operative term in this discussion is THIS season. This season hes playing in a second line role, getting power play time and playing with better players, but his production levels have not changed. So you would admit that he USED to be a second line forward, but at 26 is now past his prime? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 Hes 28th out of 32 hes not really with them, hes at the bottom end on a team that LEADS the league in goals for. Its not like the team hes on isn't scoring and hes suffering a lack of assists because of it. Hes not even the second best center on the Wings team, hes third. So my argument has a lot of merit, his point production isn't on par with the average 2nd line center on a decent team, which goes back to my original point through all of this, hes an top end third line center with great offensive upside. I don't want to argue to strenuously since I agree with you in principle, but... Pointing out that we lead the league in scoring, while having Flip as our 2nd line center, is not necessarily the best argument for needing to replace him with a more offensive-minded player. Particularly not when we're certainly not going to get a better 2-way player for the same price, and we are definitely not leading the league in team defense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shaman 713 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 I don't want to argue to strenuously since I agree with you in principle, but... Pointing out that we lead the league in scoring, while having Flip as our 2nd line center, is not necessarily the best argument for needing to replace him with a more offensive-minded player. Particularly not when we're certainly not going to get a better 2-way player for the same price, and we are definitely not leading the league in team defense. Heres the issue though, the more balanced your scoring the better your chances are in the playoffs, thats a lot of the reason the Wings lost in 09 you had players like Hossa that just disappeared which allowed teams to focus on Zetterberg and Datsyuk. This is also why is its better to keep D and Z separate, it forces teams to choose who to put their best defenders against and it gives the other more time and space to make things happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Heres the issue though, the more balanced your scoring the better your chances are in the playoffs, thats a lot of the reason the Wings lost in 09 you had players like Hossa that just disappeared which allowed teams to focus on Zetterberg and Datsyuk. This is also why is its better to keep D and Z separate, it forces teams to choose who to put their best defenders against and it gives the other more time and space to make things happen. Except in the year in which we won, they were played mostly together save in the series against the team with a pair of offensively superior centers that needed to be shut down. Edited January 2, 2011 by Datsyerberger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 Heres the issue though, the more balanced your scoring the better your chances are in the playoffs, thats a lot of the reason the Wings lost in 09 you had players like Hossa that just disappeared which allowed teams to focus on Zetterberg and Datsyuk. This is also why is its better to keep D and Z separate, it forces teams to choose who to put their best defenders against and it gives the other more time and space to make things happen. Again, not the best argument, considering we won the Cup with Flip centering the 2nd line, and Pav and Hank playing together, then lost with a more stacked offensive team. Our scoring balance now is among the best in the league. 7 players with 10+ goals, and 2 more close. 9 with 20+ points (+1 with 19), 4 with 30+. I haven't looked closely, but I don't think anyone is significantly more balanced. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titanium2 867 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 The Red Wings REALLY like Filppula for what he brings to the table: -Center -Good enough center who provides option of playing the Euro Twins together -Mature, willing to learn -Great work ethic -Very defensively conscious -Has talent on the offensive end -Great skater -Can play on the 2nd line -Can play on the PP and PK -Can play 16-19 minutes a game -Great fit in the Red Wings system I'm probably forgetting some things but my main point is that the Wings are not going to trade him unless they get someone (especially a center) who can provide an equal or better package, not to mention his price tag. I have yet to hear ANYONE present a solid case for a plausible, better option. You guys already have your bias and that's great. Show me something worthwhile. 1 Konnan511 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Theophany 110 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 I have yet to hear ANYONE present a solid case for a plausible, better option. That's because there isn't one out there to be had. He's exactly what the Wings need in a second line center. 1 Konnan511 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titanium2 867 Report post Posted January 2, 2011 That's because there isn't one out there to be had. He's exactly what the Wings need in a second line center. I'm sure they're scheming right now. Can't wait to see what they got. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
