Don't expect much from the Wings during Trade Deadline

[stormboy 47]

Exactly. Up until very recently Holland simply maintained a great team that was already in place for him.

Don't get me wrong, he's a great GM, but that doesn't change the fact that he sits back quite often. We could totally use another winger and what about our log jam of defense now (Ericsson/Lebda/Meech all fighting for spots). Moves CAN be made. I never said I wanted a trade just for a trade, but we DO have some assets that can be moved which means there ARE possibilities.

Jesus, some people here only focus on the good Holland does and refuse to acknowledge any bad. Dave Lewis? Cory Cross? Quincey?

The fact is, if things can be done to help improve the team, they should.

i agree with you that holland has made some bad moves, has inherited a good team, and is not a god. i also agree with you that he is still one of the best GMs out there.

losing quincey was obviously a blunder. i don't know the details of what was going down then, per se...maybe he had no other choice. probably, he f***ed up.

regarding the bolded part, that's the only thing that i really disagree with. yeah, we have a "log jam," sort of: we have a lot of d-men, but very few if any wings fans want to see ericsson or lebda or meech on the ice right now. it's different now that we're not far and away the best team in the league. two or three years ago when we were running away with the prez trophy, you could say "our seventh defensemen would be the fourth d-man on most other teams!" this year, not so. we don't want those three because they suck. it's kinda like maltby: not really an upgrade over anyone. yeah, helm might get us some trade value: low salary, high upside, good work ethic. and that's why he's not going to be traded. but you can't just be like "here's all our leftover, crappy d-men...give us a draft pick!" unless another team *needs* a high-speed, low-skill d-man, they're not going to give us anything for lebda, ever. i mean, i'll eat crow if i'm wrong here, but that's just how i see it.

[stormboy 47]

It's a love/hate thing. They'll love you one second and hate you the next depending on what you do. For everyone screaming for him to make a move if he were to make a movie and mortgage part of future and he did it they'd lvoe him for the excitement today. Then if we got bounced in the first round they'd turn on him for mortgaging our future and hate him come May.

Same thing works backwards. They'd hate him for not making a move and being boring today but if we went all the way and won the cup they'd love him in June for being boring in March.

you've got it, sir.

the mob is a fickle *****.

[mmamolo 287]

you've got it, sir.

the mob is a fickle *****.

ha you said it.

It's just annoying though, it seems like ppl think either you have to love Holland or hate Holland. Personally I tend to like him but that doesn't mean I agree with every single move he has or hasn't made over the years. You can agree and disagree with things he has done and will do.

As I have said a couple times today, if I were him I would be looking to try to put something together to get a winger (with Afinoganov and Ponikarovsky as my targets) if the price is right. If not, I'd be comfortable moving forward.

I'd be willing to consider a package made up of a combination of the following: Lebda, Meech, Williams, pick, mid level prospect.

Burke is willing to take on salary (especially if it is expiring this summer) to get a pick that he likes so if coupled with a prospect that could work. If Holland thinks Ponikarovsky is worth that then so be it.

Waddel may be willing to move Afinoganov, who is probably not too happy that Kovalchuk was moved, and at 800k it wouldn't take too much salary leaving to make that happen. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a third line of Miller - Filppula - Afinoganov in Detroit.

[up2here 41]

ha you said it.

It's just annoying though, it seems like ppl think either you have to love Holland or hate Holland. Personally I tend to like him but that doesn't mean I agree with every single move he has or hasn't made over the years. You can agree and disagree with things he has done and will do.

As I have said a couple times today, if I were him I would be looking to try to put something together to get a winger (with Afinoganov and Ponikarovsky as my targets) if the price is right. If not, I'd be comfortable moving forward.

I'd be willing to consider a package made up of a combination of the following: Lebda, Meech, Williams, pick, mid level prospect.

Burke is willing to take on salary (especially if it is expiring this summer) to get a pick that he likes so if coupled with a prospect that could work. If Holland thinks Ponikarovsky is worth that then so be it.

Waddel may be willing to move Afinoganov, who is probably not too happy that Kovalchuk was moved, and at 800k it wouldn't take too much salary leaving to make that happen. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a third line of Miller - Filppula - Afinoganov in Detroit.

I'd like to see Afinogenov with Datsyuk and Homer. Then Zetterberg,Franzen Bertuzzi. I should stop before this becomes a line combo thread.

[Guest Crymson]

i agree with you that holland has made some bad moves, has inherited a good team, and is not a god. i also agree with you that he is still one of the best GMs out there.

losing quincey was obviously a blunder. i don't know the details of what was going down then, per se...maybe he had no other choice. probably, he f***ed up.

Quincey was given every opportunity and never took advantage. At no point, whether in the NHL or the AHL, whether in the regular season or the playoffs (and he did play a whole lot of games in the '07 playoffs) did he exhibit the type of talent that he went on to show after being picked up by L.A.

Those who have perpetually whined about him being let go by Holland are either ignorant of the above or simply don't feel the need for their complaints to have any basis in reality.

[up2here 41]

Ive been through this Quincy thing before. It IS true that Quincey was given chances and didnt perform. Its also true that neither Meech or Lebda were much better if at all. I'm also sure it was a very difficult decision for Holland but he made the wrong choice plain and simple.

Maybe theres not even another GM out there who would have kept Quincey in Hollands shoes, doesnt matter. Wrong choice.

[stormboy 47]

Quincey was given every opportunity and never took advantage. At no point, whether in the NHL or the AHL, whether in the regular season or the playoffs (and he did play a whole lot of games in the '07 playoffs) did he exhibit the type of talent that he went on to show after being picked up by L.A.

Those who have perpetually whined about him being let go by Holland are either ignorant of the above or simply don't feel the need for their complaints to have any basis in reality.

Ive been through this Quincy thing before. It IS true that Quincey was given chances and didnt perform. Its also true that neither Meech or Lebda were much better if at all. I'm also sure it was a very difficult decision for Holland but he made the wrong choice plain and simple.

Maybe theres not even another GM out there who would have kept Quincey in Hollands shoes, doesnt matter. Wrong choice.

i feel like these comments debate the point fairly. yes, holland couldn't see into the future. yes, anyone can now see that meech or lebda are not as skilled as quincey. maybe he never would have performed that his current level with the wings (i.e. he would have been a third pairing d-man or a long time in our system). but it's impossible to say with hindsight that having Q on our team would be a bad thing. thus, holland is not a god. made the wrong choice. but did as well as could be expected under the circumstances.

[up2here 41]

i feel like these comments debate the point fairly. yes, holland couldn't see into the future. yes, anyone can now see that meech or lebda are not as skilled as quincey. maybe he never would have performed that his current level with the wings (i.e. he would have been a third pairing d-man or a long time in our system). but it's impossible to say with hindsight that having Q on our team would be a bad thing. thus, holland is not a god. made the wrong choice. but did as well as could be expected under the circumstances.

I wouldnt want any other GM for the Wings. GM's make mistakes and thats one of Holland's, I'm sure he would tell you that himself.... ok I have never met Ken Holland and I actually have no idea what he would say, but it sounded good.

[gcom007 1,465]

We had the best team in the league on paper last season, and we had no cap space for anything. The year before that, he played it safe... and we won the Cup.

Trading players isn't like pressing a series of buttons in NHL 10. There are many, many more considerations to it.

Bertuzzi's contract expires at the end of this season. Who would take him? The trade deadline doesn't work that way.

He also costs zip and produces.

Ya. I remember all the rumors about the Wings being interested in Fedorov, Lapointe etc. at the deadline in the last few years.

I agree about last season especially with Hossa. That team was outstanding and hurt more by injuries throughout the playoffs than anything. But landing Stuart for draft picks the year prior was an outstanding "playing it safe" move though! And much of the rest I concur with as well. Trade Bertuzzi? Really??? Reactionary silliness, and the "reaction" is unwarranted all things considered. And while it's really of no matter now, wasn't it "inferred" that the Federov idea was there but didn't get far because Babcock didn't like him?

In any event, I don't know what the Wings could really pull off this year given our cap situation. We can't trade picks for salary with no cap space and there's only a few guys that have any trade value that the team could reasonably let go.

I feel fine with our defense, but as I've said, I'd love another mid-level guy more focused on scoring. We can afford to give up some 2-way depth for a more one-dimensional scorer right now. I don't think either way the goaltending goes will be a make it or break it for the team, though in my gut I still tend to think Osgood will end up getting the nod (and a short leash...) given his experience and the last two runs, and if he plays at all like he did in the last couple post-seasons, it's a big positive. So a bit more scoring in the lower mid-level range of deals would be nice, but I'm fine with the rest.

But...I don't expect anything to happen, though there's no reason to believe that Holland couldn't stumble upon a deal that makes sense and pull the trigger. It's unlikely, but not impossible.

[gcom007 1,465]

Exactly. Up until very recently Holland simply maintained a great team that was already in place for him.

Don't get me wrong, he's a great GM, but that doesn't change the fact that he sits back quite often. We could totally use another winger and what about our log jam of defense now (Ericsson/Lebda/Meech all fighting for spots). Moves CAN be made. I never said I wanted a trade just for a trade, but we DO have some assets that can be moved which means there ARE possibilities.

Jesus, some people here only focus on the good Holland does and refuse to acknowledge any bad. Dave Lewis? Cory Cross? Quincey?

The fact is, if things can be done to help improve the team, they should.

I agree.

While I don't expect anything, I'm not opposed to a move and would likely try to make one myself as I simply don't like or believe in the chemistry on this team as is. There won't be any splashes and that's fine, but some tweaks to balance things out and possibly achieve better chemistry would be nice.

And I think Holland screwed up fairly bad this last off-season. I liked the recover with Williams/Bert/Eaves, but watching so many guys walk and being wholly unwilling to make moves in order to ice the best team for the money really bit this team in the ass. I don't know if I believe him when he said he didn't anticipate all of our FA's leaving, but the bottom line is that it happened and he sat back and watched.

And to be honest, I was really surprised they announced the Franzen deal without the Hossa deal. Right before the playoffs, you send a message to Hossa that they likely won't be bringing him back. Why? If he signed both of the guys, maybe announce the deals, but maybe not too. Agree to terms if you can and save the announcement for the summer. If you do announce signings, some guys will know they're gone after the season, but no clear lines will be drawn and you'll have everyone working not only for a Cup but for a spot on next years roster. Guys like Sammy would assuredly see the writing on the wall, but I think you had to figure he was gone any way things went down so no real concern there. He wanted a payday.

Ugh...I could go on and on about all this, but the whole situation really frustrated me. I think letting Hossa go when you could've had him at a $5 million deal was nothing short of insane. Ten times more so after losing everybody else that he did! I don't think he's being honest about this teams needs, and I hope this season has taught him a lesson on the matter because our scoring is flat out embarrassing.

"Maintained" is a good word to describe Holland's stance the last few years, but now that the cap is really weighing heavy, he needs to get a little more open-minded. Some guys we could stand to let go to strengthen other areas. Some guys you have to just write off from the start (Sammy for example). And when you have a great opportunity to sign a superstar like Hossa for $5 million, you do what you have to do on all these fronts to make that happen.

If he plays it the same way this off-season, next season could be even rougher than this one. Our saving grace this year has been Jimmy Howard and unfortunately, based on how things go for so many young goalies, we have to be honest and recognize that there's a reasonable chance that he'll struggle next year. If he and Osgood struggle in the regular season and our scoring doesn't improve (or gets worse, possible...) this season will feel like the fun season...

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Am I the only one getting bored of people saying this?

And it's usually people who know jack s*** about video games.

In these newer video game models, making good trades is difficult, especially with the cap. It's not that easy building a good team folks.

[mmamolo 287]

"Maintained" is a good word to describe Holland's stance the last few years,

Well, it's pretty tough to 'improve' on a Conference Final in '07, a Stanley Cup Championship in '08 and a Stanley Cup Appearance in '09. Even the Penguins who have a Championship and a SC appearance the last two years would still be jealous of the success we've had the last three years.

I do agree, Holland is far from perfect, but damn how greedy can we get?

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

i feel like these comments debate the point fairly. yes, holland couldn't see into the future. yes, anyone can now see that meech or lebda are not as skilled as quincey. maybe he never would have performed that his current level with the wings (i.e. he would have been a third pairing d-man or a long time in our system). but it's impossible to say with hindsight that having Q on our team would be a bad thing. thus, holland is not a god. made the wrong choice. but did as well as could be expected under the circumstances.

And we lost a fringe top 4 defenseman who specializes on the power play. Stop the presses! (not directed towards you but towards the people who always like to bring up the Quincey debacle)

Honestly people cling on to that "blunder" as much as possible, but how much did the Wings lose?

[mjlegend 155]

And we lost a fringe top 4 defenseman who specializes on the power play. Stop the presses! (not directed towards you but towards the people who always like to bring up the Quincey debacle)

Honestly people cling on to that "blunder" as much as possible, but how much did the Wings lose?

I would have liked to use him in a package to get Ryan Smyth, but apart from that I always felt the Quincey disaster was Quincey's own making.

I think we'll be eventually OK with it when somebody stupid like Columbus gives him the unmovable $4.5 million/yr contract for six years... and he predictably tanks.

[newfy 695]

And it's usually people who know jack s*** about video games.

In these newer video game models, making good trades is difficult, especially with the cap. It's not that easy building a good team folks.

No kidding, witht the cap making good moves is tough in NHL 10.

But I tihnk Holland could've made a shake up this year. Yeah we got Mule back and blah blah blah and we can't just trade away player x for y cause we want something exciting. But this year the team isnt like its expected to be, our team is good on paper but underperforming. This means a shake up could be perfect.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

No kidding, witht the cap making good moves is tough in NHL 10.

But I tihnk Holland could've made a shake up this year. Yeah we got Mule back and blah blah blah and we can't just trade away player x for y cause we want something exciting. But this year the team isnt like its expected to be, our team is good on paper but underperforming. This means a shake up could be perfect.

This.

[brett 1,029]

if anything lebda or meech is moving. no way bert or williams will be traded.

i think itd be fun to see Afinigenov or Kozlov or Ponikarovsky. unlikely but would be nice. wed have too many forwards though

[Rick Zombos Ghost 82]

id take Ponikarovsky's 20 goals a year plus defensive abilities for Bert and a pick.

[gcom007 1,465]

Well, it's pretty tough to 'improve' on a Conference Final in '07, a Stanley Cup Championship in '08 and a Stanley Cup Appearance in '09. Even the Penguins who have a Championship and a SC appearance the last two years would still be jealous of the success we've had the last three years.

I do agree, Holland is far from perfect, but damn how greedy can we get?

I don't disagree, and I'm all for "maintaining" in many ways. I don't expect to have a Hossa fall into our lap every year while Hank and Franzen are still making next to nothing. But I don't think Holland planned well for Hank and Franzen making the big bucks. As opposed to maintaining a balanced team, he basically sat on the sidelines and watch the team fall apart in the off-season last year. There wasn't much maintenance to it so much as scrambling done after losing all your free agent's in a "shocking" turn of events.

I don't know if there's anyone better at getting the big guys to sign great contracts for the TEAM. But the last few years he seems to be struggling with the mid-level guys. It's been overshadowed by having guys like Zetterberg and Franzen playing for such low contracts, but now that he's got to get creative with a whole team, some of the deals and the chemistry aren't looking so hot, and again, to call last off-season a disaster certainly isn't an understatement, but it's not much of an overstatement either.

It'll be a huge test in the coming off-season as he'll have more opportunities to get creative with more cap space opening up and possibly some guys retiring. Furthermore, we're well into the cap era now so there won't be any surprises. It's put up or shut up. You adapt or you fail. There's something to be said for a conservative approach to be certain, but there's also something to be said for being progressive and aware of an ever-changing world. Sitting back again will only hurt this team more than they were hurt after last year.

[uk_redwing 495]

And it's usually people who know jack s*** about video games.

In these newer video game models, making good trades is difficult, especially with the cap. It's not that easy building a good team folks.

I suck at making trades on that game. I can only make decent trades at the deadline. I rely on free agents and a build up of good players from the AHL otherwise.

[VM1138 1,921]

Holland didn't just sit by and watch the team fall apart. You forget there are other people involved in trading.

Hossa walked because we couldn't offer him the conract he awnted. Despite our deepest hopes most of us knew deep down that Hossa was gone.

Hudler was expected to break out this season and Holland probably was counting on him to pick up the slack, but surprised EVERYONE by bolting all of a sudden.

Sammy was probably expected as we were right up against the cap.

Holland didn't have a lot of options and the likes of Bert, Eaves and Williams were bottom barrell pickings because we didn't have the money to sign anyone else.

He did the only things taht were really possible last summer, get off his back.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Screw Afinaganov and Kozlov, hook me up with Colby Armstrong

[mjlegend 155]

id take Ponikarovsky's 20 goals a year plus defensive abilities for Bert and a pick.

Toronto would be better off with Poni unless the pick's a first rounder. Let's not overstate Bert's trade value.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Screw Afinaganov and Kozlov, hook me up with Colby Armstrong

You want that bird-faced idiot who always gets his ass kicked?

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

You want that bird-faced idiot who always gets his ass kicked?

Over the over Eurotrash guy yes ( calm down folks)

I dont want Armstrong for fighting alone, big body who throws more checks then anyone in our curent line-up not named Helm.