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babygorilla

Would a real gritty fighter help or hurt this team?

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I think this is a fair point; but I'd really like to see a fighter on the team even if the contribution otherwise is just being solid defensively and checking (being a solid 4th line player). My hope is that it would help everyone play a little tougher. I hate watching the Wings players get pushed around in a game. The example I always think of is a game last season, and I can't now for the life of me remember who we were playing, but I watched some idiot from the other team knock Datsyuk's helmet off in the corner, after the play had moved on. This happened at least three times. I want to say this was before we'd acquired Brad May, and I remember yelling at the TV and really wishing we had a goon out there to answer that crap. Datsyuk, of course, is a pro and never complained or let it get to him.

So I guess my vote would be "it would help", though I understand the argument above. Gotta be a solid skater too.

Edit: auto-format is killing me...

I remember that game. I wish I knew who it was too. I remember the feeling of hatred for the other team and anger that the Wings could not do anything.

But I agree, you have to have an upside or it is null in today's game. The problem with May is he had zero upside. I love Carcillo but realize that is next to impossible.

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Doesn't every team have a fighter?

Depends....

Is Zetterberg a fighter? He has fought before. What's your definition of a fighter?

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What a stupid comment...

Sniff.

What's wrong with Carcillo, Asham, Lappy and Hartnell???

Nothing. They all do their jobs well.

F.Michael likes this

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The more I think about it, the more I want Artyukhin. He won't fight a ton, but he's going to make guys keep their heads on a swivel. If he can fight 8-10 times in a season, while putting up 20-25 points (which he would have been on pace for this past year) and keep punishing guys... that's gold right there. Like I said before, last season he had like 249 hits with Tampa Bay. The Red Wings aren't (I'm guessing) going to sign a guy who will have 20ish fights, and not be able to do much else.

A guy like Arty would be perfect, and Babcock could just have him tied to Datsyuk and have him growl at the opposition. It would also avoid any skating issues that Arty has, and with Datsyuk's bowed legs he's perfectly capable of bearing Arty's 250lbs.

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> What's wrong with Carcillo, Asham, Lappy and Hartnell???

Nothing. They all do their jobs well.

Agreed, as much as I don't like them. Supporting micah's original point, though, don't Carcillo, Asham, Lappy, and company go sort of quiet when Colton Orr (or equivalent) is on the ice?

I'll admit to not watching much of the Flyers outside the SCF, so I could be off on this. It seems I read it somewhere, though.

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Agreed, as much as I don't like them. Supporting micah's original point, though, don't Carcillo, Asham, Lappy, and company go sort of quiet when Colton Orr (or equivalent) is on the ice?

I'll admit to not watching much of the Flyers outside the SCF, so I could be off on this. It seems I read it somewhere, though.

Yeah Carcillo has drawn more then one penalty when hes on the ice with Orr this season. Orr is one of those guys who doesn't play much at all so for the 5 minutes he does I think guys like carc, and Asham don't worry too much.

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Agreed, as much as I don't like them. Supporting micah's original point, though, don't Carcillo, Asham, Lappy, and company go sort of quiet when Colton Orr (or equivalent) is on the ice?

Isn't that smart hockey, though? I think it's better to be a pest and draw the ire of the other team than it is to just fight sometimes. Getting under the skin of skilled players who won't retaliate and ignoring the ones who will. While Downey couldn't put up points or skate very well, I liked his mentality when it came to fighting. He fought to stick up for his teammates more than anything else. I wasn't really a fan of Brad May's staged fights this season, but that's just my opinion.

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Isn't that smart hockey, though? ...Getting under the skin of skilled players who won't retaliate and ignoring the ones who will.

Oh, definitely; I'm not disputing that. My point was that if you have the enforcer, you can at least cut down on cheap shots at your skill players with creative line changes; whereas without one, i.e. as the Wings are now, it's open season.

On the other point about staged fights, much as I like Brad May I'm not a fan of those either. I'm fine without the off-the-faceoff bouts; I just really want to see someone who will ring the bell when Hartnell (for example) throws a nasty cross-check to the back of the head after the play, dirty hit in the corner, etc. at one of our scorers.

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Depends....

Is Zetterberg a fighter? He has fought before. What's your definition of a fighter?

A guy who fights over 5 fights a season regularly.

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In PC, is "real gritty fighter" the translation for "goon"?

I was assuming so. I think we're hoping that Holland will go for it with the right terminology.

Maybe we should move to "confrontationally inclined granular professional".

Edited by Hockey Convert

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I would be comfortable with any one of the following:

Artyukhin - UFA/27 years old - 54 games played

16 points

2 fights

127 hits & 10 blocked shots

Asham - UFA/32 years old - 72 games played

24 points

14 fights

92 hits & 16 blocked shots

Nichol - UFA/35 years old - 79 games played

19 points

4 fights

226 hits & 36 blocked shots

Nystrom - UFA/27 years old - 82 games played

19 points

6 fights

117 hits & 51 blocked shots

Winchester - UFA/29 years old - 64 games played

8 points

10 fights

143 hits & 12 blocked shots

I think out of these 5 guys Nystrom or Asham would be the best fit for Detroit's system. I included Artyukhin as well because he's only a year removed from a 249 hit/7 fight season, and the guy is huge (6'4, 255 lbs.). Like I said though, any of these guys I would be cool with.

PS: If I'm off on any of the info just correct me.

Number of fights is not a measure of toughness or intimidation; it's a worthless statistic.

You could have Bob Probert in his prime on this roster, and have him not get into one fight, and it wouldn't make him any less intimidating. Of course Probert in his prime would and did get into a ton of fights, but you get the point.

A guy who fights over 5 fights a season regularly.

Is this a requirement? I mean like, to be an elite goal scorer how you have to consistently put up high goal totals?

In the fighter's head does he realize towards the end of the season "s***, I'm only at 3 fights. I better ramp it up." and get into two meaningless fights?

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Number of fights is not a measure of toughness or intimidation; it's a worthless statistic.

You could have Bob Probert in his prime on this roster, and have him not get into one fight, and it wouldn't make him any less intimidating. Of course Probert in his prime would and did get into a ton of fights, but you get the point.

In theory this is correct, but in practice it doesn't hold up. People are going to take liberties, either through accident, frustration, etc. no matter who is on the other team. Therefore, an enforcer needs to be ready at all times. Does this mean that an enforcer with 25 fights is more effective than one with 20? No. Does it mean that the enforcer with 25 fights was more effective than the enforcer with 2? Yes. If Probert didn't fight anyone, nobody would be intimidated by him. Look at Chara this playoffs. With the cage on, players on Buffalo constantly got in his face much more often than after it was removed or during the regular season.

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In theory this is correct, but in practice it doesn't hold up. People are going to take liberties, either through accident, frustration, etc. no matter who is on the other team. Therefore, an enforcer needs to be ready at all times. Does this mean that an enforcer with 25 fights is more effective than one with 20? No. Does it mean that the enforcer with 25 fights was more effective than the enforcer with 2? Yes. If Probert didn't fight anyone, nobody would be intimidated by him. Look at Chara this playoffs. With the cage on, players on Buffalo constantly got in his face much more often than after it was removed or during the regular season.

Enforcers aren't effective deterrents at all.

I have stated this repeatedly in other threads, but I'll say it again:

If you want someone to be afraid of the consequences of their actions, there has to be a chance that they will face them.

A 5-minute enforcer for Team A does nothing to deter Team B's 10-minute fourth liner from laying a cheap shot on Team A's star player. The chances they will play a shift against each other are low, thus low chance for consequences.

What you need are players in your lineup who actually contribute offensively and/or defensively AND can be a physical presence.

dobbles likes this

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If you want someone to be afraid of the consequences of their actions, there has to be a chance that they will face them.

A 5-minute enforcer for Team A does nothing to deter Team B's 10-minute fourth liner from laying a cheap shot on Team A's star player. The chances they will play a shift against each other are low, thus low chance for consequences.

What you need are players in your lineup who actually contribute offensively and/or defensively AND can be a physical presence.

The shifts aren't determined randomly, though; the coach can get the goons out there against that 10-minute fourth liner when necessary. To me that's part of the strategy.

As far as the last point, I agree it would be nice to have all players who are physical and contribute, but there just aren't enough of those types of players. Plus, the Wings aren't built that way, so short of rebuilding the team, I'm not sure that helps us. The realistic option we have available is to add some "grit" for the fourth line.

In the words of Babcock (I don't have the link, unfortunately, but someone around here had it in their sig):

"It was pretty interesting," said Detroit coach Mike Babcock. "We had May in exhibition for a couple of games and no one gets hacked or whacked. When we don't have him, we get run. We don't have a team that twists off helmets at stoppages. You get tired of seeing it all the time. It's just nice when you get someone to look after that stuff."

Edited by Hockey Convert

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In the words of Babcock (I don't have the link, unfortunately, but someone around here had it in their sig

Someone cool who the hot womens are all up on.

Babs also said something to the effect of "Tough players always play tough, you expect that...but our team is so weak, that even non-tough players are taking liberties with us. That's what the presence of an enforcer deters." Note: That is not an exact quote, but the message is pretty spot-on IIRC.

Edited by micah
GMRwings1983 likes this

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Enforcers aren't effective deterrents at all.

I have stated this repeatedly in other threads, but I'll say it again:

If you want someone to be afraid of the consequences of their actions, there has to be a chance that they will face them.

A 5-minute enforcer for Team A does nothing to deter Team B's 10-minute fourth liner from laying a cheap shot on Team A's star player. The chances they will play a shift against each other are low, thus low chance for consequences.

What you need are players in your lineup who actually contribute offensively and/or defensively AND can be a physical presence.

I would bet that the probability of a 4th line going against another 4th line is greater than .25. Do you disagree? As the home team, you can also control the line changes so it is easy to get two guys lined up next to each other. For example, when Lappy hit Lids a few years ago, Downey was easily able to get retribution.

Downey's interview here is a great example of the enforcer mentality.

Edited by WorkingOvertime

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This thread is hopeless.

Even if every player on the team came out and said, "we think a gritty fighter will help our team", there would still be people here on LGW making arguments against the idea.

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This thread is hopeless.

Even if every player on the team came out and said, "we think a gritty fighter will help our team", there would still be people here on LGW making arguments against the idea.

It might be hopeless, but I think this is the most cordial enforcer debate that LGW has ever seen.

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This thread is hopeless.

Even if every player on the team came out and said, "we think a gritty fighter will help our team", there would still be people here on LGW making arguments against the idea.

Kind of agree with the general obsevation here. Its not a fighter type per say what this team needs; but more grit like players who are willing to engage when neccesary. The Flyers Hawk's series illusstrated well the toughnes that is needed to go in the corners and all the way . The current Wings are a far cry from that with no change of direction in sight; this team is way too soft.

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It might be hopeless, but I think this is the most cordial enforcer debate that LGW has ever seen.

It's 2 pages long. Maybe that's why?

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If Calgary didn't sign Nystrom for some reason and he could be had for around $1-1.2 million that'd be pretty great.

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