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Ozzie30

Datsyuk in the Hart conversation

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You seem to be confusing the most valuable player to the most talented player. Crosby is carrying his team more than Datsyuk. The Pens would be WAY worse off without him in the lineup. The Wings would survive without Datsyuk.

As much as it would pain me to see Crosby win another award, you're right. He's not just on a tear, he's keeping that team going.

It wouldn't be fun, but the wings could survive without Dats. Honestly I thinking losing Lids would make a greater impact so I'd put him as the Wing most deserving of the Hart at this point, with honorable mention to Datsyuk.

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I'm still upset Datsyuk didn't win the Hart in 2009, when he clearly deserved it over both Ovechkin and Malkin, but that's a separate argument. The Hart, aka League's Most Valuable Player should be not the most proficient scorer (as we have an award for that) but the most complete player in the game. How can that not be Datsyuk?

Easy; it's Zetterberg.

Crosby's numbers are ridiculous, I'm not trying to deny anything on him at all, but all the points in the world shouldn't win you the Hart. It's not going to matter, as previously stated, he (likely Crosby) with the most points will be your MVP. People need to open their eyes...

And see that...

THE HART TROPHY IS NOT THE "BEST PLAYER" AWARD. QUIT WHINING.

While the Hart has many times been awarded to a player who was far from the most valuable player, arguing the fact that Dats, Lids, or anyone else should get it because they're a better player, a better 'all-around' player, or anything else other than more valuable to their team is irrelevant to this discussion.

If the Hart trophy were awarded based on the award's actual criteria, Wayne Gretzky would have won perhaps 4 of the 9 he actually won, and Steve Yzerman would have come away with at least one for 1989, and could have been argued as the most deserving Hart winner in 1988 over Lemieux, 1991 over Hull, and 1992 over Messier. 1993 could also be added to the list, however Ray Bourque and Ed Belfour might have arguments to the contrary.

It's not about who the best player is. It's about who is the most needed by his team. Which one key player was more necessary for his team to win than any other player in the league? Right now it's Crosby. I don't know if I would argue Dats has ever been Hart worthy; he plays on a team with Z, Lids, etc. Take Dats out and the Wings still win games. I would probably say he's not even the Wings' MVP. Lidstrom is.

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Right now, Thomas is the clear favorite for the Hart, and yes, it is not even close.

I do not think he will maintain it, but Thomas is on target for by far the greatest season of any goaltender in history.

Anyone want to argue the same for Crosby?

Letang over Lidstrom is a complete joke. Last year Lidstrom was the best defensive player in the world, and he is •better• this season.

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Right now, Thomas is the clear favorite for the Hart, and yes, it is not even close.

I do not think he will maintain it, but Thomas is on target for by far the greatest season of any goaltender in history.

Anyone want to argue the same for Crosby?

Letang over Lidstrom is a complete joke. Last year Lidstrom was the best defensive player in the world, and he is •better• this season.

Thomas has two losses, an overtime loss, and he played the first 40 minutes of a 5-3 loss to Washington which ended up being credited as a loss for Tuukka Rask.

In the four Bruin losses Thomas has played in, the Bruins have scored three or more goals three times, and were shut out once. Rask has been in net during seven Bruin losses. The Bruins scored two goals twice, three goals during the Washington game, and one goal in each of the four other losses.

Thomas is having a great season, but so is Rask. They are playing for the same team; why are their win/loss records so wildly different? The answer: because the offense has not shown up for Rask. Rask's only win was a 4-0 shutout where he made 41 saves, but Boston's second goal didn't come until there were only five minutes left to play.

Thomas is very valuable, but Boston is not in a situation where Thomas is carrying a team that would otherwise not be winning to a bunch of wins. Boston averages 3.93 GF/G in Thomas' wins. Both of his regulation losses were the Bruins being shut out. His OTL was a shootout loss to break a 3-3 tie.

So as you can see, The Bruins' ability to win rests on their offense, not their goaltending. The offense has simply had more 'off' nights for Rask than Thomas, which has led to Rask's poor W/L record.

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Thomas has two losses, an overtime loss, and he played the first 40 minutes of a 5-3 loss to Washington which ended up being credited as a loss for Tuukka Rask.

In the four Bruin losses Thomas has played in, the Bruins have scored three or more goals three times, and were shut out once. Rask has been in net during seven Bruin losses. The Bruins scored two goals twice, three goals during the Washington game, and one goal in each of the four other losses.

Thomas is having a great season, but so is Rask. They are playing for the same team; why are their win/loss records so wildly different? The answer: because the offense has not shown up for Rask. Rask's only win was a 4-0 shutout where he made 41 saves, but Boston's second goal didn't come until there were only five minutes left to play.

Thomas is very valuable, but Boston is not in a situation where Thomas is carrying a team that would otherwise not be winning to a bunch of wins. Boston averages 3.93 GF/G in Thomas' wins. Both of his regulation losses were the Bruins being shut out. His OTL was a shootout loss to break a 3-3 tie.

So as you can see, The Bruins' ability to win rests on their offense, not their goaltending. The offense has simply had more 'off' nights for Rask than Thomas, which has led to Rask's poor W/L record.

Same argument can be made of Pittsburgh's defense.

Arguments can be made for either when talking of the ridiculous literal definition of the Hart (who cares?), but Tim Thomas is on pace for a much better season than Crosby.

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Same argument can be made of Pittsburgh's defense.

Arguments can be made for either when talking of the ridiculous literal definition of the Hart (who cares?), but Tim Thomas is on pace for a much better season than Crosby.

You're saying that when awarding a trophy, you should ignore the criteria on which it is intended to be judged upon?

Great, let's give the Art Ross trophy to Jonathan Ericsson, and the Maurice Richard trophy to Jakub Kindl! The Vezina can go to Ozzie since he deserved to win it in at least one of 1996 and 2008.

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Even I have to admit that Crosby's the frontrunner for the Hart. Without his scoring, the Pens wouldn't be anywhere near where they are right now.

I feel dirty...

Thankfully, you said it so I don't have to.

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You're saying that when awarding a trophy, you should ignore the criteria on which it is intended to be judged upon?

Great, let's give the Art Ross trophy to Jonathan Ericsson, and the Maurice Richard trophy to Jakub Kindl! The Vezina can go to Ozzie since he deserved to win it in at least one of 1996 and 2008.

The literal definition of the Hart should weigh about as much historically as the Lady Byng, and yet it is the regular season award with by far the most weight.

Luckily, the literal definition has been ignored most years (with the notable exception of the 50s), and the award has most often gone to arguably the most valuable player in the league, not to merely his team. 'Most Valuable to his Team' is better as message board fodder than it is as a major award.

Or else Mark Streit would have ran away with the Hart in 09.

Edited by egroen

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Why even argue about the criteria for winning the Hart? Even if it was awarded to the best player, it would still be Crosby. Don't be such homers. Datsyuk is a top 3 player in the game, but even given Datsyuks defensive play, I'd pick Crosby over him 100 out of 100 times if I were building a team.

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As much as I love Pasha, and God knows I do, he doesn't stand a snowball's chance of winning the Hart. Why? That douchebag in Pittsburgh who has everyone and his brother kissing his ass and treating him like he's the second coming. The fact that he isn't means nothing.

I'm more than sure that Pasha will take home another Selke trophy, which I'm sure won't break his heart (nor mine), but the chances of him walking off with the Hart are about as good as mine for being 5'7", blonde, gorgeous and loved. Not likely.

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Guest Stolberg   
Guest Stolberg

As much as I love Pasha, and God knows I do, he doesn't stand a snowball's chance of winning the Hart. Why? That douchebag in Pittsburgh who has everyone and his brother kissing his ass and treating him like he's the second coming. The fact that he isn't means nothing.

that is precisely why

you nailed it right on the head

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Something interesting I read on Twitter yesterday from one of the hockey columnists (think it was someone from TSN, can't remember)... In a survey of a bunch of NHL players, when asked who they thought was the best player in the league, they overwhelmingly answered...Pavel Datsyuk.

EDIT: And before anyone says it, I know the Hart isn't for the best player in the league - it's for the player who means the most to his team, which I begrudgingly admit, is Crosby. Only because of the utter lack of depth on that team.

Edited by edicius

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Something interesting I read on Twitter yesterday from one of the hockey columnists (think it was someone from TSN, can't remember)... In a survey of a bunch of NHL players, when asked who they thought was the best player in the league, they overwhelmingly answered...Pavel Datsyuk.

*points at sig*

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Unfortunately, the Hart has become a popularity contest, not necessarily given to the person that is most valuable to your team. Consequently, you'll never see a Red Wing win it as long as Crysby and Ovechkin are around. We don't stand a snowball's chance in Hell for it, even though guys like Nick and Pasha are worth a hell of a lot more than those two media-mongering cretins put together.

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Unfortunately, the Hart has become a popularity contest, not necessarily given to the person that is most valuable to your team. Consequently, you'll never see a Red Wing win it as long as Crysby and Ovechkin are around. We don't stand a snowball's chance in Hell for it, even though guys like Nick and Pasha are worth a hell of a lot more than those two media-mongering cretins put together.

Only a wings fan would really think that Dats deserves it over Crosby. Without Crosby the pens would be absolutely nothing, probably in the bottom 5 of the league really. Without Datsyuk we still have a tonne of depth that can step up and cover our losses

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Why wouldn't he win it this year, assuming he keeps playing like he is?

PK TOI.

I was actually a little surprised he won it last year because he wasn't as significant for the PK as he had been for his first two Selkes. This year once again he's not killing penalties as much as you'd expect from a Selke trophy winner.

Maybe they're changing the standard or something because before Pav starting winning Selkes the previous winners were either at the top or near the top in terms of PK TOI amongst their team's forwards. Pav is usually out there on the waning seconds of a penalty after a full clear out of the zone or to kill a 5 on 3.

So, really, I'm not sure how to judge whether or not he's on his way to winning another because him winning the last three has really changed the standard somehow. Pav is without a doubt a fantastic defensive player but at the same I thought that PK time is supposed to be really important in terms of judging a player's defensive abilities.

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PK TOI.

I was actually a little surprised he won it last year because he wasn't as significant for the PK as he had been for his first two Selkes. This year once again he's not killing penalties as much as you'd expect from a Selke trophy winner.

Maybe they're changing the standard or something because before Pav starting winning Selkes the previous winners were either at the top or near the top in terms of PK TOI amongst their team's forwards. Pav is usually out there on the waning seconds of a penalty after a full clear out of the zone or to kill a 5 on 3.

So, really, I'm not sure how to judge whether or not he's on his way to winning another because him winning the last three has really changed the standard somehow. Pav is without a doubt a fantastic defensive player but at the same I thought that PK time is supposed to be really important in terms of judging a player's defensive abilities.

Kesler is also having a tremendous year. He's a beast right now. Assuming he keeps playing the rest of the season like he is currently, it'd be hard to make a case as to how someone deserves it over him. Leads all forwards in ice time, second TOI/G on the pk, strong in the faceoff circle, great defensive player AND tied for the lead for goals on his team with 16 (since offense has become such a factor with the Selke).

And honestly I'm with you on the pk thing. I think Datsyuk is awesome and I know it's blasphemy to say someone else may have deserved an award, but I think his gaudy takeaway stat gets too much weight in the Selke conversation. But I guess I'm old fashioned in thinking that the award should go more towards a Bob Gainey type guy, not a talented offensive player who is also defensively responsible. Either way though, I think it's going to Kesler this year if he keeps playing like this.

Edited by haroldsnepsts

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Only a wings fan would really think that Dats deserves it over Crosby. Without Crosby the pens would be absolutely nothing, probably in the bottom 5 of the league really. Without Datsyuk we still have a tonne of depth that can step up and cover our losses

Sorry you feel that way, but I honestly believe that Pasha is just as worthy to the Wings as that other creature is to his.

And for what it's worth, this showed up in my email this morning...

http://www.thehockeynews.com/atricles/37203-THN.com-BlogPavel-Datsyuk-the-NHLs-best-Russian.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=thn_daily_20101222

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Crosby will win the Hart but Dats should be nominated.

Is Datsyuk more valuable than Stamkos, Crosby, Thomas, Miller, Backstrom (the one in Minnesota), Ovechkin, Price, Weber, Doughty, Lundqvist, Bryzgalov, or any number of other guys?

Better, maybe. But more valuable? It's a tough argument as to whether he's more valuable than Lidstrom or Zetterberg, let alone people who are on other teams.

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