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Guest Crymson

Hudler's Future

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Heh my bad - thought he was scratched for 3 PO games - guess I'm not noticing him out there.

I'll give you that Franzen gets a healthy dose of leeway, but when on him game, Mule is a totally different level of player than Hudler can ever be.

Nothing personal against the guy, but he has been with the Wings organization long enough to figure he is never going to be a top 1-2 line guy. Personally, I'd rather experiment with someone else, and let him get a fresh shot at it somewhere else....

This is where Holland's loyalty hurts the team, in my opinion. He's had plenty of chances to prove himself since he came back, and I don't believe he showed he can play at the level he used to on a regular basis. Hopefully Holland recognizes this and we can experiment with someone else.

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Heh my bad - thought he was scratched for 3 PO games - guess I'm not noticing him out there.

I'll give you that Franzen gets a healthy dose of leeway, but when on him game, Mule is a totally different level of player than Hudler can ever be.

Nothing personal against the guy, but he has been with the Wings organization long enough to figure he is never going to be a top 1-2 line guy. Personally, I'd rather experiment with someone else, and let him get a fresh shot at it somewhere else....

Hudler's performance with Datsyuk over an eleven-game stretch this season far exceeded anything Franzen has been able to display outside of the occasional game. Think about it for a second; Franzen played this season mostly with Datsyuk or Zetterberg, and when he was with Filppula, Flip was playing the best hockey of his career (whether Mule was on the ice or not) and yet Franzen posted worse numbers than Hudler did two seasons ago playing mostly third line time with far less offensively skilled players. Take away Franzen's five-goal game, and it's an even larger disparity. Once Hudler broke his slump, he was scoring points at a much higher rate than Franzen ever has, even before he linked up with Datsyuk. Different type of player maybe. But Hudler, not Franzen, is the one with the higher offensive peak. And if Babs puts him on Dats' or Z's line this season full-time, you'll see that.

This is where Holland's loyalty hurts the team, in my opinion. He's had plenty of chances to prove himself since he came back, and I don't believe he showed he can play at the level he used to on a regular basis. Hopefully Holland recognizes this and we can experiment with someone else.

Hudler had plenty of chances? To start the year, Hudler was put with the worst possible match of anyone capable of playing center in the organization. Completely clashing play styles led to both players having poor starts, in addition to Hudler having more trouble than expected re-acclimating to NHL speed while Modano either couldn't or wouldn't play the Wings' system. Hudler eventually broke his slump, in part to line shuffling and more ice time available due to injuries, as well as being placed with players he had known chemistry with such as Filppula and Helm. Once that happened, he was on pace for the 70 points Babcock expected, and while the Hudler/Datsyuk/Cleary line was together he was on pace for over 100. So I'm not sure exactly what you're expecting, but after that first thirty games he was one of the team's top four forwards and playing at least as well as he did in 08-09.

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Guest Crymson

Hudler's performance with Datsyuk over an eleven-game stretch this season far exceeded anything Franzen has been able to display outside of the occasional game.

This is a totally nonsensical statement. First, do you remember when Franzen scored 20 goals in the last six weeks of the '08 season? Yeah, Hudler hasn't done anything like that. And yeah, you're talking here about 11 games. I have absolutely no doubt that you'd call that insufficient data if you were talking about anyone besides Hudler.

Also, I'll repeat what I said before: Hudler is utterly one-dimensional, more so even than Homer.

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So Hudler can produce, as long as he's paired with arguably the best playmaker in the league.

Stick anyone on Datsyuk's wing and they'll produce. I'm not going to give Hudler a first-line spot since that may be the only place he can produce.

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So Hudler can produce, as long as he's paired with arguably the best playmaker in the league.

Stick anyone on Datsyuk's wing and they'll produce. I'm not going to give Hudler a first-line spot since that may be the only place he can produce.

He produced at a rate that would produce 30 goals and 75 assists in 82 games. Franzen has only once performed that well offensively; the 09-10 playoffs. Who was he playing with? He also produced points at a higher rate than Datsyuk did while they were together.

Deal with it. When Hudler is placed in a top-six role, he excels. This has been the case time and time again. How well would the Sedin twins do on a checking line? Not well? How about Crosby? Savard? Kovalchuk? Kane? Thornton? None of these guys would do well on a checking line with checking line wingers/center. They might score some points, but not at their current level. Why do you expect Hudler to do so well? People around here say I think he's some kind of otherwordly talent; yet I'm not the one who expects such ridiculousness from him. I fully realize that playing in a checking role will limit your offense, unlike many here.

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He produced at a rate that would produce 30 goals and 75 assists in 82 games. Franzen has only once performed that well offensively; the 09-10 playoffs. Who was he playing with? He also produced points at a higher rate than Datsyuk did while they were together.

Deal with it. When Hudler is placed in a top-six role, he excels. This has been the case time and time again. How well would the Sedin twins do on a checking line? Not well? How about Crosby? Savard? Kovalchuk? Kane? Thornton? None of these guys would do well on a checking line with checking line wingers/center. They might score some points, but not at their current level. Why do you expect Hudler to do so well? People around here say I think he's some kind of otherwordly talent; yet I'm not the one who expects such ridiculousness from him. I fully realize that playing in a checking role will limit your offense, unlike many here.

Any of those players would turn a checking line into a scoring line. Any line that has one of those players you listed is automatically no longer a "checking line". All of those players (with the exception of Kovalchuk) make everyone around them better because of their multidimensional skill sets. Hudler does not make anyone better; he is capable of producing when he's put with players who are more talented than him, but apart from flashes of brilliance in the 08 playoffs he has never demonstrated himself to be a top-tier talent.

As far as your argument that Hudler has a higher scoring peak than Franzen, that's absurd; I cite Crymson's example of the end of 2008 when Franzen went on an absolute tear scoring clutch goals, which he continued into the playoffs, where he put in the kind of performance Hudler never has. I don't care about an eleven-game stretch this season where Hudler played well on Datsyuk's wing. You cannot extrapolate full-season stats from an eleven-game stretch. If you could, then I could pick out any 11 of the other 71 games where Hudler was less than spectacular and present them to you as evidence that he's worth nothing more than a bag of pucks. Your selective memory and bias towards him is ridiculous; yes, Hudler has a lot of talent and puck skills, but that's it. He has no size, no speed and no tenacity. He's weak, slow and if he's not scoring, he's not doing anything at all.

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Any of those players would turn a checking line into a scoring line. Any line that has one of those players you listed is automatically no longer a "checking line". All of those players (with the exception of Kovalchuk) make everyone around them better because of their multidimensional skill sets. Hudler does not make anyone better; he is capable of producing when he's put with players who are more talented than him, but apart from flashes of brilliance in the 08 playoffs he has never demonstrated himself to be a top-tier talent.

As far as your argument that Hudler has a higher scoring peak than Franzen, that's absurd; I cite Crymson's example of the end of 2008 when Franzen went on an absolute tear scoring clutch goals, which he continued into the playoffs, where he put in the kind of performance Hudler never has. I don't care about an eleven-game stretch this season where Hudler played well on Datsyuk's wing. You cannot extrapolate full-season stats from an eleven-game stretch. If you could, then I could pick out any 11 of the other 71 games where Hudler was less than spectacular and present them to you as evidence that he's worth nothing more than a bag of pucks. Your selective memory and bias towards him is ridiculous; yes, Hudler has a lot of talent and puck skills, but that's it. He has no size, no speed and no tenacity. He's weak, slow and if he's not scoring, he's not doing anything at all.

The argument was that Hudler wasn't capable of playing like a top tier offensive talent, to which I cited his post-Christmas streak which was followed by his time with Datsyuk. It wasn't "Is Hudler a top-tier player" it was "Hudler isn't capable of it." so a stretch where he didn't do it doesn't matter. Franzen's pathetic performance in the last couple months of the season and his floating in the playoffs are no better than Hudler's stretch at the beginning of the season. And before you pull out the ankle injury for Franzen; he looked no different in his effort before the injury in the playoffs... so when was his ankle injured? February?

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I have to say I am sick to death of seeing people say "Hudler excels in a top 6 role."

This season proved that is a crap statement. Hudler was terrible most of the season. The short period of time in which Hudler wasn't the Red Wing whipping boy was while he was playing on Datsyuk's wing. Wow, big deal. Anyone NHL caliber player can score with Datsyuk as your center. Datsyuk turns Holmstrom into a 40 point player each season. Hudler is garbage. He is tiny, and his $2.8 mil contract is going to hurt us moving into this off-season.

The guy contributes ZERO to a bottom 6 role, which is fine being he is a finesse player, but if he isn't good enough for a top 6 role on this team, then there is no room for him. He is just eating up cap space at this point.

Edited by ashenhigh

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Franzen was bad as well. My point was that when comparing Franzen and Hudler's peaks, Franzen's was superior - by a long shot.

At any rate, your ridiculous extrapolation that Hudler could get 105 points in a season is, well, ridiculous. He hit a hot streak on a hot line and did well in those eleven games, but the nature of hockey suggests that even if he plays beside Datsyuk for all 82 games, he still wouldn't hit 30 goals and 75 assists.

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I have to say I am sick to death of seeing people say "Hudler excels in a top 6 role."

While I won't say he excels in a top 6 role, I think that's where he needs to be if he stays. Sort of a final "step up or get out" move. If he's going to be a 3rd or 4th liner next season or a tweener at best & inserted into the top 6 due to injuries, etc., I think it's going to be a waste of cap space. If he's supposed to be a scorer, he needs to be on a scoring line. If not, trade him off for a pick or pucks & sign someone suited to 3rd or 4th line duty.

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I have to say I am sick to death of seeing people say "Hudler excels in a top 6 role."

This season proved that is a crap statement. Hudler was terrible most of the season. The short period of time in which Hudler wasn't the Red Wing whipping boy was while he was playing on Datsyuk's wing. Wow, big deal. Anyone NHL caliber player can score with Datsyuk as your center. Datsyuk turns Holmstrom into a 40 point player each season. Hudler is garbage. He is tiny, and his $2.8 mil contract is going to hurt us moving into this off-season.

The guy contributes ZERO to a bottom 6 role, which is fine being he is a finesse player, but if he isn't good enough for a top 6 role on this team, then there is no room for him. He is just eating up cap space at this point.

So you're telling me that this season, when Hudler was excellent when given top-six time, proved he doesn't excel in a top-six role? Sure, anyone can score points playing with Datsyuk. But there's a difference between being an excellent scoring winger with Datsyuk and just grinding out a few points. In the 17 games prior to Datsyuk's return, Hudler scored 12 points. That's still a 60-point pace. So over 28 games, that's pace for almost 80 points. 28 games is a third of a season, so it's not really a short period of time. You obviously dislike him because he's not Eric Lindros, Gary Roberts or Keith Tkachuk, but he is still a skilled forward and given top-six time will provide plenty of offense.

Franzen was bad as well. My point was that when comparing Franzen and Hudler's peaks, Franzen's was superior - by a long shot.

At any rate, your ridiculous extrapolation that Hudler could get 105 points in a season is, well, ridiculous. He hit a hot streak on a hot line and did well in those eleven games, but the nature of hockey suggests that even if he plays beside Datsyuk for all 82 games, he still wouldn't hit 30 goals and 75 assists.

Well, if we're looking at this season, Franzen never had an 11-game stretch or longer where he managed better than a point-per-game.

Furthermore, if you project Hudler's scoring stats to Franzen's ES and PP TOI, Hudler ends up with 13 goals and 36 assists for 49 points, compared to Franzen's 28-27-55. One of them spent most of the year with one of the world's three best centers. The other is Jiri Hudler.

Hudler sucks. He's slow. Lazy. Can't play defense and can't score without the help of Datsyuk, who can make anyone look great. See Thornton/Cheechoo.

Get rid of 'im.

Hudler from December 27th to Feb 5th: 17 GP, 3g-9a-12pt, ATOI 15:52

Seems like he was hardly having trouble with his offense before he was placed on Datsyuk's line.

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Well, if we're looking at this season, Franzen never had an 11-game stretch or longer where he managed better than a point-per-game.

This is why it is pointless to debate you.

You go by "projections" of small samples to make your point look better.

When you have to take those small samples based on him playing on the same line as the best overall player in the game, then you have a problem.

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Please stop trying to compare Hudler to Franzen. Yes Franzen has his own problems right now, but you're comparing apples and oranges. Hudler never was or will be on the level that Franzen is capable of (whether Franzen ever gets back there or not). Hudler at his very best was a decent 3rd line player in 2008. He never was, is, or will be a top 2 line player on the Wings. I'm not sure why you are so loyal to this guy - he bolted for Russia once, and he's not a Homer or Draper where after 15 years and 4 Cups you can make a case for some extra loyalty late in the game. Hudler needs to move on from the Wings - best for both parties.

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So you're telling me that this season, when Hudler was excellent when given top-six time, proved he doesn't excel in a top-six role? Sure, anyone can score points playing with Datsyuk. But there's a difference between being an excellent scoring winger with Datsyuk and just grinding out a few points. In the 17 games prior to Datsyuk's return, Hudler scored 12 points. That's still a 60-point pace. So over 28 games, that's pace for almost 80 points. 28 games is a third of a season, so it's not really a short period of time. You obviously dislike him because he's not Eric Lindros, Gary Roberts or Keith Tkachuk, but he is still a skilled forward and given top-six time will provide plenty of offense.

Well, if we're looking at this season, Franzen never had an 11-game stretch or longer where he managed better than a point-per-game.

Furthermore, if you project Hudler's scoring stats to Franzen's ES and PP TOI, Hudler ends up with 13 goals and 36 assists for 49 points, compared to Franzen's 28-27-55. One of them spent most of the year with one of the world's three best centers. The other is Jiri Hudler.

Hudler from December 27th to Feb 5th: 17 GP, 3g-9a-12pt, ATOI 15:52

Seems like he was hardly having trouble with his offense before he was placed on Datsyuk's line.

There was a 14 game stretch where Eaves had 10 points. That's a 59 point pace! Hell there was a stretch of him having 8 points in 8 games, that's an 82 point pace while having a pace of scoring almost 72 goals!!!! Should Eaves be put on Datsyuk's wing because of having a good stretch or two? No.

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There was a 14 game stretch where Eaves had 10 points. That's a 59 point pace! Hell there was a stretch of him having 8 points in 8 games, that's an 82 point pace while having a pace of scoring almost 72 goals!!!! Should Eaves be put on Datsyuk's wing because of having a good stretch or two? No.

I actually do think Eaves should occasionally be given a chance with Datsyuk or Zetterberg at some point. I think he can be a 20-goal scorer with his work ethic, shot and speed. Unless we're really injured, I've never seen him crack the top six for more than a few shifts.

Regardless, Hudler should be given the chance to play on another team next season. He's woefully inconsistent for our top six and too slow/small and defensively unpolished for our bottom six.

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I think he deserves another shot everyone has a down year look how many people wanted cleary gone after last year or Datsyuk traded in 05'06 because he never produced in playoffs. I was down on him alot this year but I dont think he just forgot how to score.

I still want Cleary gone, but Hudler much much more. Datsyuk, I never understood why anyone could have doubted him, just like Fisher

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I still want Cleary gone, but Hudler much much more. Datsyuk, I never understood why anyone could have doubted him, just like Fisher

Why do you want a gritty, hard-working player like Cleary gone?

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So you're telling me that this season, when Hudler was excellent when given top-six time, proved he doesn't excel in a top-six role? Sure, anyone can score points playing with Datsyuk. But there's a difference between being an excellent scoring winger with Datsyuk and just grinding out a few points. In the 17 games prior to Datsyuk's return, Hudler scored 12 points. That's still a 60-point pace. So over 28 games, that's pace for almost 80 points. 28 games is a third of a season, so it's not really a short period of time. You obviously dislike him because he's not Eric Lindros, Gary Roberts or Keith Tkachuk, but he is still a skilled forward and given top-six time will provide plenty of offense.

Well, if we're looking at this season, Franzen never had an 11-game stretch or longer where he managed better than a point-per-game.

Furthermore, if you project Hudler's scoring stats to Franzen's ES and PP TOI, Hudler ends up with 13 goals and 36 assists for 49 points, compared to Franzen's 28-27-55. One of them spent most of the year with one of the world's three best centers. The other is Jiri Hudler.

Hudler from December 27th to Feb 5th: 17 GP, 3g-9a-12pt, ATOI 15:52

Seems like he was hardly having trouble with his offense before he was placed on Datsyuk's line.

For the love of god, you must stop this schtick of yours and acting like every single mention of Hudler is like him being kicked to the curb like a poor little puppy dog.

You get railed on over and over again for small sample sizes and your bias towards Hudler. You like him, cool. Nobody should have a problem with that.

What is beyond aggravating is you trying to make him out better than he is in the way you do it and not listening to people who tell you these things over and over and over again. You aren't going to convince people on here that Hudler is better than he is regardless of how often you do your fancy little projections, number crunchings, small sample sizes, or whatever. Fair or not, people have their notions of Hudler from his play or lack thereof on the ice, not your essays or projections.

It is not worth the time on here.

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so 5 out of 1000's is the majority? what we can't have our opinions toward him? we have to agree with you?

Talk about sensitive...maybe had you read the post you would have seen that I never said you couldn't have your own opinions, I just said I don't understand them because to me they are so blinded by emotional hatred based on either Hudler leaving for the KHL or his terrible start to the season (or even his streaky play).

For his pay, he was severely underperforming in the regular season and playoffs. The hot debate is who would you rather have, Filppula or Hudler. Filppula had more points and skates extremely extremely well and plays top level defense and is a proven playoff performer (tied for second in team playoff scoring this postseason). Hudler is replaceable, and at his cap hit, it'd be a better idea to replace him with a team need.

Cue the Eva "Hudler had stretched where he lead the team in points and I won't acknowledge Filppula had stretched where he lead the team in points".

Hudler had solid games in games 6 and 7, and he even showed he is capable of laying out guys.

You can fall back on that debate all you want...I never referenced it once. Personally I think, and always have thought, Filppula was the better all around player and is more valuable to the Wings. I never said anything to the contrary. The 'hot debate' is actually the blind the hatred this board has for Hudler and whether or not it's based on his play, talent/ability, and value to the team or their own personal bias against him. To me, when I read the constant rants that members post about how they can't stand how he 'ran off' to Russia for money (even though the Wings didn't have the cap room for him anyways) or that he apparently had harsh things to say about the Wings (based on the article below which people in this forum have wildy misinterpreted) it clearly shows an emotional bias.

I've never once claimed, like Eva, that Hudler is a superstar or that he played to the level of his salary this year. I wasn't thrilled with the dollar amount awarded in arbitration in the first place. However, I am willing to give credit where credit is due and that doesn't appear to be something that vast majority of Hudler haters are willing to do.

Players have bad years. Sure there were injuries but Datsyuk posted ~70 points in 2009-10. I'm NOT comparing Hudler to Datsyuk but I'm saying everyone can have a bad year. When you also consider the transition from coming back from the KHL (adjusting to the speed of the game etc) it's going to be tough.

All I'm saying is that if people would look at his play objectively, the level of play he should be able to provide the Wings with next season, the roster spot he should fit into next year, and the moves Holland hopefully will make this summer dumping him now based on emotional hatred doesn't make sense. It's like people on this board who say that Sidney Crosby 'sucks' simply because you hate him. You can hate him all you want, and believe me I hate him too, but he definitely does not suck at hockey.

Estranged Hudler

Once I read that, I was done with him.

Talk about being overly sensitive. The quoted paragraph does not have any negative reference to the Wings. You're hearing what you want to hear.

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