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How do ppl not understand this!?

Signing a good veteran to a one year contract vs. signing a mediocre young player to a long-term contract.

...In both cases, you get a good player for next year. In one case, you get a shot to replace him with a long-term addition from next season's better FA class. In the other case, you're stuck with the mediocre player and his overpriced salary for the next 5 years.

You tell me, bud. You tell me.

I'm having a hard time figuring out how you came to the conclusion that Ed Jovanovski is a better defenseman (particularly a puck moving defenseman, and PP specialist, which is what we're replacing) than any of Bieksa, Erhoff, or Wisniewski. He's been a minus 12 of his 15 seasons in the league and doesn't average many (or any) more points than those guys do. Plus, they are all much younger and are only going to improve on a defensive squad that includes Kronwall, Stuart, and Lidstrom. Plus he's more expensive, making it harder if the Wings do want to pursue a forward or another defenseman. But apparently they are mediocre and he's a star? Weird.

Either way you cut it there is still plenty of cap space. Jovo isn't worth more than 3 million.

You honestly think Ed Jovanovski is going to take a 3 million dollar pay cut to play anywhere at 34 years old? Especially when pretty much every team is looking to upgrade defense all the time. I agree he's not worth it, but he'll get it, or very close to it.

Edited by kipwinger

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:blink:

Did the OP actually put Hudler on the top line, or am I seeing things?

Don't even get started on that one. Plenty of people on this site think he should be given more ice time. Shoot over to the Hudler's future forum and prepare to be amazed.

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How do ppl not understand this!?

Signing a good veteran to a one year contract vs. signing a mediocre young player to a long-term contract.

...In both cases, you get a good player for next year. In one case, you get a shot to replace him with a long-term addition from next season's better FA class. In the other case, you're stuck with the mediocre player and his overpriced salary for the next 5 years.

You tell me, bud. You tell me.

I don't know why people are expecting next years free agent crop to be better than this year. Right now the 2012 FA crop might have 5-10 defencemen I'd like to see play here and at least half of them will be re-signed by their current teams before they ever make it to free agency. If you sign a bunch of stop-gaps to 1 year contracts this year, the only defenceman you'll have signed for next year is Kindl. That could be a recipe for disaster.

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Guest blueadams

I'm having a hard time figuring out how you came to the conclusion that Ed Jovanovski is a better defenseman (particularly a puck moving defenseman, and PP specialist, which is what we're replacing) than any of Bieksa, Erhoff, or Wisniewski. He's been a minus 12 of his 15 seasons in the league and doesn't average many (or any) more points than those guys do. Plus, they are all much younger and are only going to improve on a defensive squad that includes Kronwall, Stuart, and Lidstrom. Plus he's more expensive, making it harder if the Wings do want to pursue a forward or another defenseman. But apparently they are mediocre and he's a star? Weird.

Why do I feel like I'm teaching a special education class.

L-I-S-T-E-N...

I did not, am not, and will not ever say that Jovanovski is better than Bieksa, Ehrhoff, or Wisniewski.

The advantage of signing Jovanovski is that it is a short one year commitment that will enable us to pursue someone better than Wisniewski in next year's FA class, like Ryan Suter.

Bieksa and Ehrhoff are both going to get something close to 7mil, and Holland would never give either anything close...so, please, don't even talk to me about either.

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How do ppl not understand this!?

Signing a good veteran to a one year contract vs. signing a mediocre young player to a long-term contract.

...In both cases, you get a good player for next year. In one case, you get a shot to replace him with a long-term addition from next season's better FA class. In the other case, you're stuck with the mediocre player and his overpriced salary for the next 5 years.

You tell me, bud. You tell me.

And you implied it here.

Unless good is not better than mediocre in your ordering of things. Or unless you blatantly refuse to acknowledge that we were talking about Jovanovski this entire time, and unless you blatantly refuse to acknowledge that about ten posts ago I mentioned Bieksa, Efhoff, and Wisniewski as UFA options in this year's class. Also, by your rationale if Erhoff and Bieksa are going to go for 7 million this year, then how much is Suter or Burns going to go for next year? A zillion? How do you suppose we'll afford that, when we have to re-sign Kronwall and Stuart next year to raises, plus likely having to fill in the holes left by Lidstrom, Holmstrom, and Bertuzzi.

Best case scenario we'll have about the same amount of free money after re-signing Kronwall and Staurt and filling those holes, as we have right now. Only the best free agents in that class (who are better than Erhoff, Bieksa, and Wiz) will cost more and we won't sign them either.

Edited by kipwinger

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Guest blueadams

And you implied it here.

Unless good is not better than mediocre in your ordering of things. Or unless you blatantly refuse to acknowledge that we were talking about Jovanovski this entire time, and unless you blatantly refuse to acknowledge that about ten posts ago I mentioned Bieksa, Efhoff, and Wisniewski as UFA options in this year's class. Also, by your rationale if Erhoff and Bieksa are going to go for 7 million this year, then how much is Suter or Burns going to go for next year? A zillion? How do you suppose we'll afford that, when we have to re-sign Kronwall and Stuart next year to raises, plus likely having to fill in the holes left by Lidstrom, Holmstrom, and Bertuzzi.

Best case scenario we'll have about the same amount of free money after re-signing Kronwall and Staurt and filling those holes, as we have right now. Only the best free agents in that class (who are better than Erhoff, Bieksa, and Wiz) will cost more and we won't sign them either.

Your last post makes zero sense. The beginning of this post makes zero sense. Please get better at explaining things.

Suter and Burns will probably go for about 7mil next year too. Suter is worth it IMO. Burns, probably not. Ehrhoff and Bieksa, definitely not. And yes...we could probably afford to sign both next season if Lids retired. I won't even bother trying to explain the math to you.

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Your last post makes zero sense. The beginning of this post makes zero sense. Please get better at explaining things.

Suter and Burns will probably go for about 7mil next year too. Suter is worth it IMO. Burns, probably not. Ehrhoff and Bieksa, definitely not. And yes...we could probably afford to sign both next season if Lids retired. I won't even bother trying to explain the math to you.

Explain how we're going to afford to sign a premier defenseman when most of Lidstrom's contract is going to make up the raises that Kronwall and Stuart are going to get? C'mon Yoda, help me see where that extra seven million is going to come from?

You said that you never suggested that Jovanovski was better than Erhoff, Bieksa, or Wiz. Except that you did say that (and I just highlighted where you said it).

You also said that there were no better UFA options than Jovanovski. Except that there are better options (and I told you ten posts ago who they were).

Now you're saying that Jovanovski isn't better than Wiz, Bieksa, Erhoff; which is what I've been saying all along. And considering he already makes six million dollars and isn't likely to sign for too much less, if any at all, why wouldn't they just sign one of those three guys.

Edited by kipwinger

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:blink:

Did the OP actually put Hudler on the top line, or am I seeing things?

If he puts in good effort in camp and pre-season, I would not be opposed to seeing him on a "top line" that's actually sort of a 1A scenario, particularly if the Wings are trying to roll 3 scoring lines. Hudler tends to be at his best with other high end offensive talent and people that can cover his flaws (slow skating, meh defense partly due to said slow skating).

Hudler - Datsyuk - speed/size

Franzen - Zetterberg - Anything

Bertuzzi - Filppula - Speed/defense

With present forwards:

Hudler - Datsyuk - Cleary

Franzen - Zetterberg - Holmstrom

Mursak - Filppula - Bertuzzi

Abdelkader - Helm - Eaves

If Hudler is playing well enough to justify putting anywhere in the top 9, you don't want Hudler with Filppula. That's just ugly. That excludes lines of:

Anyone - Datsyuk - Anyone

Anyone - Zetterberg - Anyone

Hudler - Filppula - Anyone

and

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Anyone

Hudler - Filppula - Anyone

Basically, Hudler shouldn't feature on the same line with Filppula. It's ugly.

So if Hudler is playing up to that level, it leaves line combos of:

Hudler - Datsyuk - Someone (Hudler plays better with Datsyuk than Zetterberg)

Someone - Zetterberg - Someone

Someone - Filppula - Someone

or

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Holmstrom/Cleary

Bertuzzi - Filppula - Franzen

Hudler - Helm - Cleary

Option 1 there seems to work when Hudler is playing well. Option 2 isn't as exciting.. Hudler doesn't seem to do as well with players of relatively low skill. Though I'd say that line is a fair sight better than the Hudler - Modano - Cleary from this last year; Helm + Cleary may have enough speed/grit/d to balance Hudler. I'm just not sure they can all finish well together.

Such is why Hudler makes sense on a 1A/1B scoring line with our present forwards if he's earned any icetime at all.

Edited by Datsyerberger

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It always amazes me when I read threads like these how some people think we can just ****** up any FA that we want as if the player has no other options out there. I mean really.... Richards and Weber???? First of all, I think that B. Richards is a horrible fit with this current team (no doubt he is a good player) and will be way over priced for a second line player. Also, there is no way we get Weber... lol

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If he puts in good effort in camp and pre-season, I would not be opposed to seeing him on a "top line" that's actually sort of a 1A scenario, particularly if the Wings are trying to roll 3 scoring lines. Hudler tends to be at his best with other high end offensive talent and people that can cover his flaws (slow skating, meh defense partly due to said slow skating).

Hudler - Datsyuk - speed/size

Franzen - Zetterberg - Anything

Bertuzzi - Filppula - Speed/defense

With present forwards:

Hudler - Datsyuk - Cleary

Franzen - Zetterberg - Holmstrom

Mursak - Filppula - Bertuzzi

Abdelkader - Helm - Eaves

If Hudler is playing well enough to justify putting anywhere in the top 9, you don't want Hudler with Filppula. That's just ugly. That excludes lines of:

Anyone - Datsyuk - Anyone

Anyone - Zetterberg - Anyone

Hudler - Filppula - Anyone

and

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Anyone

Hudler - Filppula - Anyone

Basically, Hudler shouldn't feature on the same line with Filppula. It's ugly.

So if Hudler is playing up to that level, it leaves line combos of:

Hudler - Datsyuk - Someone (Hudler plays better with Datsyuk than Zetterberg)

Someone - Zetterberg - Someone

Someone - Filppula - Someone

or

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Holmstrom/Cleary

Bertuzzi - Filppula - Franzen

Hudler - Helm - Cleary

Option 1 there seems to work when Hudler is playing well. Option 2 isn't as exciting.. Hudler doesn't seem to do as well with players of relatively low skill. Though I'd say that line is a fair sight better than the Hudler - Modano - Cleary from this last year; Helm + Cleary may have enough speed/grit/d to balance Hudler. I'm just not sure they can all finish well together.

Such is why Hudler makes sense on a 1A/1B scoring line with our present forwards if he's earned any icetime at all.

How about an option where Hudler isn't on the team?

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Is this the same Jovanovski that Helm made his ***** all series? Pass. There are defensemen available who will be younger, cheaper AND better.

If I'm running the Wings, here's what I do with the existing players:

-Trade Hudler and Filppula, as long as I can get a decent return. I think Hudler has value around the league, he had a bad season but could thrive in a different atmosphere. Filppula also has value, but he hasn't played himself into the 2nd line center role like he was supposed to.

-Sign Eaves and Miller.

-Let Modano, Salei, Ericsson, and Osgood walk.

Here's what I'm looking for in free agency and trades:

-Basically, acquire an entire second line that will put up about 60 goals and 150 points and add a physical edge to the team.

-Find a high quality defenseman who's solid in his own end to play in the top four. I'm not looking for ANOTHER "puck-moving" defenseman to fill Rafalski's void. Need someone who's good below the faceoff dots.

-Look for a cheap, experienced vet (like Salei) to play 12-16 minutes a game. (Janik could be an option here.)

-If Lidstrom retires, look for a #1 type defenseman.

-Find a cheap, veteran goalie to back up Howard. (MacDonald if there's no better option.)

As for the Griffins:

-Mursak, Emmerton, Tatar fight it out for an extra forward spot. Draper can be included in the mix if he's willing to go through what Maltby did last summer.

-Janik and Smith are considered as options for the defense. If Lidstrom returns, Smith becomes more of a possibility. Janik could fill the 7th defenseman spot and replace Kindl or Smith at times, or anyone who's sick or injured.

-MacDonald could be in the mix for the backup goalie spot, depending on who's available and at what price. I don't know if Larsson would consider returning to the Wings, or if he's even progressed enough to be considered.

Where I'm looking for players:

-UFAs, obviously.

-Players on teams that are in early cap trouble for next season.

-RFAs that aren't tendered and become UFAs.

-Players whose teams walk away from their arbitration awards.

-As training camp comes to a close, the waiver wire.

My roster, with possible Griffins in parentheses:

F- Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, ?, ?, ?, Abdelkader, Cleary, Bertuzzi, Helm, Eaves, Miller, Holmstrom, ?(Mursak/Emmerton).

D- Kronwall, Stuart, Lidstrom or replacement, ?, Kindl, ?(Smith), ?(Janik).

G- Howard, ?(MacDonald).

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How about an option where Hudler isn't on the team?

Not opposed if we replace with an equal or better forward without sacrificing too much cap hit we need for D.

Filppula also has value, but he hasn't played himself into the 2nd line center role like he was supposed to.

Based upon what criteria?

Edited by Datsyerberger

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Why do I feel like I'm teaching a special education class.

L-I-S-T-E-N...

I did not, am not, and will not ever say that Jovanovski is better than Bieksa, Ehrhoff, or Wisniewski.

The advantage of signing Jovanovski is that it is a short one year commitment that will enable us to pursue someone better than Wisniewski in next year's FA class, like Ryan Suter.

Bieksa and Ehrhoff are both going to get something close to 7mil, and Holland would never give either anything close...so, please, don't even talk to me about either.

Thing is, Holland has enough cash this year to get BOTH Wiz and Jovo plus pursue Suter next year, even if Wiz signed for 5 years. Jovo will probably get a bigger pay day than $3M, even if he is not worth it, BUT considering his friendship and past with Bertuzzi, plus there is always the "hometown" factor (yes I consider Windsor basically a hometown when it comes to Detroit.) He just may come here if Bert talks him into it to try to get their first Cup... I think he would add very good veteran leadership and toughness to our D corps. IF he signed for $3M or less....considering he has been making an average of $6.5M the last 5 years. Maybe its time for him to give up a little and possibly win a Cup at home. Dunno, it'd be nice, but some team will throw $5M or more at him anyway...

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Guest blueadams

Explain how we're going to afford to sign a premier defenseman when most of Lidstrom's contract is going to make up the raises that Kronwall and Stuart are going to get? C'mon Yoda, help me see where that extra seven million is going to come from?

You said that you never suggested that Jovanovski was better than Erhoff, Bieksa, or Wiz. Except that you did say that (and I just highlighted where you said it).

You also said that there were no better UFA options than Jovanovski. Except that there are better options (and I told you ten posts ago who they were).

Now you're saying that Jovanovski isn't better than Wiz, Bieksa, Erhoff; which is what I've been saying all along. And considering he already makes six million dollars and isn't likely to sign for too much less, if any at all, why wouldn't they just sign one of those three guys.

This is the last time that I'm going to attempt to explain reason to you...because it's looking more and more like an exercise in futility.

#1) I never at any point said that Jovanovski was a better player than Ehrhoff, Bieksa or Wiz. Please post the quote in full if you think I did. I did suggest that Jovanovski would be a better signing than those three because he would come cheaper, and on a one year deal - which would give us more money to pursue someone like Suter next off-season. I still stand by that ---> that him and his short contract would be our best option.

#2) Like I said before, I'm not getting into the money issue with you. It's obvious. It's simple. You don't get it. I don't care that you don't get it. And I don't feel like wasting half an hour explaining it to you.

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Guest blueadams

Thing is, Holland has enough cash this year to get BOTH Wiz and Jovo plus pursue Suter next year, even if Wiz signed for 5 years. Jovo will probably get a bigger pay day than $3M, even if he is not worth it, BUT considering his friendship and past with Bertuzzi, plus there is always the "hometown" factor (yes I consider Windsor basically a hometown when it comes to Detroit.) He just may come here if Bert talks him into it to try to get their first Cup... I think he would add very good veteran leadership and toughness to our D corps. IF he signed for $3M or less....considering he has been making an average of $6.5M the last 5 years. Maybe its time for him to give up a little and possibly win a Cup at home. Dunno, it'd be nice, but some team will throw $5M or more at him anyway...

Obviously you think that Wiz would be a good long-term addition to the core. I just simply disagree. And as such, I would rather sign a veteran like Jovonovski to a one year contract, keeping our long-term options open.

If there's still room to sign Wiz after signing Jovonovski (or whatever other veteran), I still wouldn't do it. I'd sign another vet to a one year deal. I simply don't think that Wiz would be a good addition to the core. I actually don't think that any high profile UFA in this class would be...at least not at the price they're going to get.

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Obviously you think that Wiz would be a good long-term addition to the core. I just simply disagree. And as such, I would rather sign a veteran like Jovonovski to a one year contract, keeping our long-term options open.

If there's still room to sign Wiz after signing Jovonovski (or whatever other veteran), I still wouldn't do it. I'd sign another vet to a one year deal. I simply don't think that Wiz would be a good addition to the core. I actually don't think that any high profile UFA in this class would be...at least not at the price they're going to get.

I am saying "for the right price." If Wiz would take a 5 yr $20M deal, then sign him up, but that depends on him, I am sure there will be teams offering him $5M+ per season, then I say no thanks. I am with ya on the Jovo deal. Sign him for one and heck if he likes it and has some stuff left, sign him again when we get Suter (thinking positive) and like I said, it's no guarantee that Lids is done after one more year either. I'd take a d-corps of Lids/Suter/Kronner/Stuart/Jovo/Kindl/Smith for 2012... I just would like to see Wiz here as well, that way if Lids does retire, they wouldn't be hurting as much, but then again, who else is available next off season on D? One thing is for sure, it's nice to finally NOT be up against the Cap and have all these options available!!!

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blueadams, is that you?

I was thinking the same thing lol

I am saying "for the right price." If Wiz would take a 5 yr $20M deal, then sign him up, but that depends on him, I am sure there will be teams offering him $5M+ per season, then I say no thanks. I am with ya on the Jovo deal. Sign him for one and heck if he likes it and has some stuff left, sign him again when we get Suter (thinking positive) and like I said, it's no guarantee that Lids is done after one more year either. I'd take a d-corps of Lids/Suter/Kronner/Stuart/Jovo/Kindl/Smith for 2012... I just would like to see Wiz here as well, that way if Lids does retire, they wouldn't be hurting as much, but then again, who else is available next off season on D? One thing is for sure, it's nice to finally NOT be up against the Cap and have all these options available!!!

I would staight up s*** my pants if i ever seen jovi in a wings jersey... I would like it but don't see it happening.

Ryan Suter would be an awesome fit but it's not like he won't be in super high demand, so it will cost us and still be hard to get him

Suter will be back with nashville if he didn't have any issues with the coaching.

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Obviously you think that Wiz would be a good long-term addition to the core. I just simply disagree. And as such, I would rather sign a veteran like Jovonovski to a one year contract, keeping our long-term options open.

If there's still room to sign Wiz after signing Jovonovski (or whatever other veteran), I still wouldn't do it. I'd sign another vet to a one year deal. I simply don't think that Wiz would be a good addition to the core. I actually don't think that any high profile UFA in this class would be...at least not at the price they're going to get.

Of the current roster and prospects expected to be with the team, we have 10 players signed beyond next year, for about $28M. We can probably figure a cap number around $62-65M, assuming the hard cap stays in the next CBA. We have great long-term flexibility, even if we get a couple higher priced guys this year.

We could be looking at something like this in two years (I didn't bother to look up the FAs, so I just filled in prices mostly. And I think my raises and FA prices are pretty liberal.):

FORWARDS

Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Brooks Laich ($4.000m)

Johan Franzen ($3.954m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m)

Tomas Tatar ($0.840m) / Helm ($2.500m) / Some Guy ($2.000m)

Jan Mursak ($0.550m) / Abby ($1.750m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.250m)

/ Some Guy ($0.850m) / Some Guy ($0.750m)

DEFENSEMEN

Kronner ($5.000m) / Brent Burns ($6.500m)

Stuie ($4.500m) / James Wisniewski ($4.750m)

Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Some Guy ($2.000m)

Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($2.250m) / Some Guy ($0.750m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $65,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,536,211; BONUSES: $260,000

CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $463,789

So we can pick up Wis and Laich, who would both fit our needs nicely this coming season, AND still sign a premier defenseman next summer AND keep our key FAs AND add a couple decent role players, if not even more. And that's not even considering the ability to trade someone to free space.

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I would staight up s*** my pants if i ever seen jovi in a wings jersey... I would like it but don't see it happening.

Well, he is technically a local boy, is super goods friends with Bertuzzi, plus he is entering the twilight of his career WITHOUT having his name on the Cup. None of that means he will come here, but there are only a handful of teams that have a legit shot at the Cup and that alone makes it a possibility and I wouldn't be surprised if he did end up here....unless he goes for more huge payday's. If he signs here, it shouldn't be for more than $3M. But, like most of the available UFA's he will get higher offers elsewhere, maybe even other Cup contenders...

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Guest blueadams

idk why, but suter strikes me as the type that would take well below market value to play here.

and nashville ain't gonna have much left to offer him after giving weber 8mil a season.

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