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Season-Long Lines Thread

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Is the Cleary-Helm-Miller line playoff worthy? As in, is this a line you can see Babs starting with at the beginning of the playoffs? Assuming the Wings make it, of course.

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It's pretty simple - if the Holland wants to win a cup then either thru trades, call-ups, or signings, the wings need to find better players for the roles that Bertuzzi and Hudler currently play. Keep in mind none of the other active forwards belong in the top 6 either - especially Cleary.

The ironic thing is that overall our goaltending and defense is as good as it has been in years. Its the forwards that have taken a dive. Pretty much the opposite of our power years in the past.

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Now that Helm is out and Nyquist is up, if I had to guess, the lines will for the most part stay the same.

Franzen-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi

Filppula-Zetterberg-Hudler

Cleary-Abdelkader-Miller

Andersson-Emmerton-Nyquist

I personally prefer Andersson at center though. Maybe Babs might have him in the middle instead but I'm thinking this is a 'paid your dues' kind of situation where Emmerton has first dibs on the center spot and plays there until he messes up.

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Now that Helm is out and Nyquist is up, if I had to guess, the lines will for the most part stay the same.

Franzen-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi

Filppula-Zetterberg-Hudler

Cleary-Abdelkader-Miller

Andersson-Emmerton-Nyquist

I personally prefer Andersson at center though. Maybe Babs might have him in the middle instead but I'm thinking this is a 'paid your dues' kind of situation where Emmerton has first dibs on the center spot and plays there until he messes up.

I just don't like Nyquist being on the fourth line as it completely under utilizes his potential. I don't exactly have a solution as to where to put him without messing everything up, but I wouldn't mind seeing him on a line with Flip and Z and send Hudler to wherever.

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Hudler-Datsyuk-Franzen

Filppula-Zetterberg-Nyquist

Bertuzzi-Abdelkader-Cleary

Emmerton-Andersson-Miller

Ride the top 2 lines heavy for the most part. 3rd line is pretty solid. 4th used sparingly.

This is the only thing that really makes sense as hudler is useless on the 4th and nyquist should be in top 6.

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I just don't like Nyquist being on the fourth line as it completely under utilizes his potential. I don't exactly have a solution as to where to put him without messing everything up, but I wouldn't mind seeing him on a line with Flip and Z and send Hudler to wherever.

Well you're right in that the coaches won't want to break anything up too much. But also, Goose will be with other skilled players in Emmerton and Andersson you know? I'm sure they will all be on a similar wavelength as opposed to if he were with your typical crash and bang type of 4th liners. Now, how that line will match up against a bigger, physical 4th line is another issue but no matter how you slice up the lines you're going to have skilled players against tough grinders.

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if we're at full-strength...at some point in the season...what lines do you guys want to see?

me?

Nyquist-Datsyuk-Filppula

Hudler-Zetterberg-Franzen

Cleary-Helm-Abdelkader

Holmstrom-Miller-Eaves

x-Bertuzzi, Mursak

Lidstrom-White

Kronwall-Stuart

Smith-Ericsson

x-Commodore, Kindl

Howard

Conklin

.....Point #1) Bertuzzi is a drag on the top six; and in the lineup in general. He can't do anything with the puck. He can't accept passes. He can't make passes. He's never in the right spot at the right time. He blocks more shots than he redirects in front of the net. He can't shoot. He takes stupid penalties. He's always offsides. He slows down Pav or whoever else he's out there with. And he's a major liability defensively, and he doesn't hit, so he can't play in the bottom six either. Even though he's incredibly young and inexperienced, I'd much rather see a guy like Nyquist who has a TON of skill with the puck out there with Pav. He'll be a facilitator. Much moreso than Bert. He'll produce more goals, I guarantee it. And he won't cost us anymore goals than Bert either. And he might even be more of a physical factor, lol.

.....Point #2) Filppula needs to play with Zetterberg. Mule needs to play with Datsyuk. Mule moves to slow to keep up with Pav. Filppula's main asset is as a passer, but Zetterberg doesn't really appear to be able to score anymore. Hank needs a natural goal-scorer out there with him like Mule.

.....Point #3) Holmstrom renders that 4th line pretty much un-playable, but you need him for the PP, no buts about it. Miller and Eaves can both PK. Those guys will still all get 4th line minutes...just on special teams. The top three lines need to be getting more ice time as it is anyways.

.....Point #4) Brendan Smith is easily the 5th best defenseman under contract in this organization. Quit dicking around and play the damn guy.

Edited by blueadams

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Did you miss-speak on point 2? Or am I particularly dense today?

If the latter, I apologize.

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if we're at full-strength...at some point in the season...what lines do you guys want to see?

me?

Nyquist-Datsyuk-Filppula

Hudler-Zetterberg-Franzen

Cleary-Helm-Abdelkader

Holmstrom-Miller-Eaves

x-Bertuzzi, Mursak

Lidstrom-White

Kronwall-Stuart

Smith-Ericsson

x-Commodore, Kindl

Howard

Conklin

.....Point #1) Bertuzzi is a drag on the top six; and in the lineup in general. He can't do anything with the puck. He can't accept passes. He can't make passes. He's never in the right spot at the right time. He blocks more shots than he redirects in front of the net. He can't shoot. He takes stupid penalties. He's always offsides. He slows down Pav or whoever else he's out there with. And he's a major liability defensively, and he doesn't hit, so he can't play in the bottom six either. Even though he's incredibly young and inexperienced, I'd much rather see a guy like Nyquist who has a TON of skill with the puck out there with Pav. He'll be a facilitator. Much moreso than Bert. He'll produce more goals, I guarantee it. And he won't cost us anymore goals than Bert either. And he might even be more of a physical factor, lol.

.....Point #2) Filppula needs to play with Zetterberg. Mule needs to play with Datsyuk. Mule moves to slow to keep up with Pav. Filppula's main asset is as a passer, but Zetterberg doesn't really appear to be able to score anymore. Hank needs a natural goal-scorer out there with him like Mule.

.....Point #3) Holmstrom renders that 4th line pretty much un-playable, but you need him for the PP, no buts about it. Miller and Eaves can both PK. Those guys will still all get 4th line minutes...just on special teams. The top three lines need to be getting more ice time as it is anyways.

.....Point #4) Brendan Smith is easily the 5th best defenseman under contract in this organization. Quit dicking around and play the damn guy.

"At some point" I wouldn't mind those lines, assuming that the "point" is some time after Nyquist has done something to earn a top line spot. I don't love Hudler opposite Mule, especially with Hank. Too little size, speed, and physicality on the line (but you can say that about our top 6 in general).

To address some of your points:

Bert has been decent since joining Pav and Mule. I'm no fan of his, but he's strong and tough to knock off the puck. He does still have high-end offensive instincts, and makes a good complementary player. Barring a trade or an unexpected develpment surge from one of the kids, I don't think we can regularly replace him in the lineup when he's playing well.

The lack of a real center hurts that 4th line more than Homer. He has been surprisingly effective on the 4th line this year I think. He won't score much, but he does good work along the boards and kills a lot of time keeping the puck in the opposing end of the ice. He has more offensive awareness than a typical 4th-liner, and he's not bothered by rough play. I think he causes problems for other 4th lines and a lot of 3rd D pairs. Swap Abby with Miller or Eaves and the line looks much better.

I think Hank would benefit from bigger guys like Mule and Bert creating some space. Flip and Huds have been pretty good this year regardless of linemates, and Pav is Pav. I think those 6 are the best we can do without a trade. Decent to very good, mostly depending on how Mule is going at the time.

Huds-Pav-Flip

Mule-Hank-Bert

Cleary on the 3rd line, plus subbing in for Hudler when we need defense. Homer on the 4th, plus PP time. The rest of the bottom 6 is a lot of interchangeable parts. Helm and Abby centering with Miller and Eaves the other wingers is probably the best lineup, but Conner's speed is also an asset (Mursak probably the same). Nyquist and Tatar offer a lot of skill. Emmy, Andersson, and even Bruno can play without looking too out of place.

There's a lot of experiments I'd like to see. I think Homer, Abby, Miller, Eaves, and occasionally Bert can sit without hurting us too much. I'd like to see a line of Conner-Helm-Mursak. I'd like to see Gus and Tatar together, maybe with a vet like Bert or Homer, or a younger guy with some size like Abby, Andy, or even Bruno (though I'd guess that experiment is over). I hope at some point Eaves can work his way back in (and not just for injuries).

Overall though, I think our best combos are:

Cleary-Helm-Eaves

Homer-Abby-Miller

Not a ton of skill and not great hitters, but very good speed and defense, and all are very hard working.

On defense, I'd be ok with any combination of E, Smith, Kindl, Commie. I think Smith will be very good, but I don't think he's a difference-maker right now.

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"At some point" I wouldn't mind those lines, assuming that the "point" is some time after Nyquist has done something to earn a top line spot. I don't love Hudler opposite Mule, especially with Hank. Too little size, speed, and physicality on the line (but you can say that about our top 6 in general).

the problem is that we only have one big guy that can do anything with the puck (mule). so one of the top two lines is going to be without. nyquist, who's faster, could be swapped with hudler.

To address some of your points:

Bert has been decent since joining Pav and Mule. I'm no fan of his, but he's strong and tough to knock off the puck. He does still have high-end offensive instincts, and makes a good complementary player. Barring a trade or an unexpected develpment surge from one of the kids, I don't think we can regularly replace him in the lineup when he's playing well.

being strong and strong with the pick are two different things. i think bert's awful doing anything with the puck. he kills a top 2 line. and what offensive instincts?? - constantly going offsides?

The lack of a real center hurts that 4th line more than Homer. He has been surprisingly effective on the 4th line this year I think. He won't score much, but he does good work along the boards and kills a lot of time keeping the puck in the opposing end of the ice. He has more offensive awareness than a typical 4th-liner, and he's not bothered by rough play. I think he causes problems for other 4th lines and a lot of 3rd D pairs. Swap Abby with Miller or Eaves and the line looks much better.

that or swap eaves out for emmerton.

I think Hank would benefit from bigger guys like Mule and Bert creating some space. Flip and Huds have been pretty good this year regardless of linemates, and Pav is Pav. I think those 6 are the best we can do without a trade. Decent to very good, mostly depending on how Mule is going at the time.

Huds-Pav-Flip

Mule-Hank-Bert

i think he'd benefit more from a guy that can participate with the puck in nyquist.

Cleary on the 3rd line, plus subbing in for Hudler when we need defense. Homer on the 4th, plus PP time. The rest of the bottom 6 is a lot of interchangeable parts. Helm and Abby centering with Miller and Eaves the other wingers is probably the best lineup, but Conner's speed is also an asset (Mursak probably the same). Nyquist and Tatar offer a lot of skill. Emmy, Andersson, and even Bruno can play without looking too out of place.

There's a lot of experiments I'd like to see. I think Homer, Abby, Miller, Eaves, and occasionally Bert can sit without hurting us too much. I'd like to see a line of Conner-Helm-Mursak. I'd like to see Gus and Tatar together, maybe with a vet like Bert or Homer, or a younger guy with some size like Abby, Andy, or even Bruno (though I'd guess that experiment is over). I hope at some point Eaves can work his way back in (and not just for injuries).

i think conner got reassigned to gr today.

Overall though, I think our best combos are:

Cleary-Helm-Eaves

Homer-Abby-Miller

Not a ton of skill and not great hitters, but very good speed and defense, and all are very hard working.

On defense, I'd be ok with any combination of E, Smith, Kindl, Commie. I think Smith will be very good, but I don't think he's a difference-maker right now.

[you must've not seen him play./b]

Hudler/Nyquist-Datsyuk-Filppula

Hudler/Nyquist-Zetterberg-Franzen

Miller-Helm-Cleary

Holmstrom-Abdelkader-Eaves

x-Bertuzzi, Mursak

Lidstrom-White

Kronwall-Stuart

Smith-Ericsson

x-Commodore, Kindl

Howard

Conklin

Edited by blueadams

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Hudler/Nyquist-Datsyuk-Filppula

Hudler/Nyquist-Zetterberg-Franzen

Miller-Helm-Cleary

Holmstrom-Abdelkader-Eaves

x-Bertuzzi, Mursak

Lidstrom-White

Kronwall-Stuart

Smith-Ericsson

x-Commodore, Kindl

Howard

Conklin

Already giving Nyquist top line? Sheesh! Plus I see you are still trying to put Smith in there even though you know he won't be a permanent fixture until he is out of options...keep dreaming.

Plus, you haven't watch the chemistry between Zetterberg and Filppula lately? Why on Earth would you suggest splitting them up? You amaze me...

In my book the current lines are clicking better than most lines in the NHL. As long as Helm and Cleary stay together (when Helm returns) nobody can touch our third and fourth lines. I have a despise for Hudler and Franzen, but as long as they are scoring they can stay. But they will be my main bait on the trade deadline IF I am looking to deal, which right now, I am not. Unless an unbelievable deal presents itself, I am staying put with this team and then making changes come July 1 depending on how far they go into the playoffs...

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the problem is that we only have one big guy that can do anything with the puck (mule). so one of the top two lines is going to be without. nyquist, who's faster, could be swapped with hudler.

being strong and strong with the pick are two different things. i think bert's awful doing anything with the puck. he kills a top 2 line. and what offensive instincts?? - constantly going offsides?

that or swap eaves out for emmerton.

i think he'd benefit more from a guy that can participate with the puck in nyquist.

i think conner got reassigned to gr today.

you must've not seen him play.

Try watching Bert with some objectivity. Same with Nyquist and Smith.

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Try watching Bert with some objectivity. Same with Nyquist and Smith.

I'd ask you to do the same, if I thought you actually would that is.

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i don't get their deal with nyquist, just like i don't get their deal with smith.

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Due to popular demand here on the board...I'm starting one official 'blueadams lines thread,' and I'm going to update it throughout the season (as opposed to starting 50+ different lines threads).

Real Lineup:

Franzen-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi

Hudler-Zetterberg-Filppula

Miller-Helm-Cleary

Holmstrom-Abdelkader-Emmerton/Eaves/Mursak

Lidstrom-White

Kronwall-Stuart

Ericsson-Commodore/Kindl

Howard

Conklin

Blueadams' Dream Lineup:

Hudler/Nyquist-Datsyuk-Filppula

Hudler/Nyquist-Zetterberg-Franzen

Miller-Helm-Cleary

Holmstrom-Abdelkader-Eaves/Mursak/Bertuzzi

Lidstrom-White

Kronwall-Stuart

Smith-Ericsson

made a bit of alterations to the dream lineup

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Due to popular demand here on the board...I'm starting one official 'blueadams lines thread,' and I'm going to update it throughout the season (as opposed to starting 50+ different lines threads).

Real Lineup:

Franzen-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi

Hudler-Zetterberg-Filppula

Miller-Helm-Cleary

Holmstrom-Abdelkader-Emmerton/Eaves/Mursak

Lidstrom-White

Kronwall-Stuart

Ericsson-Commodore/Kindl

Howard

Conklin

Blueadams' Dream Lineup:

Filppula-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi

Hudler-Zetterberg-Franzen

Miller-Helm-Cleary

Mursak-Abdelkader-Holmstrom

Emmerton

*Eaves

Lidstrom-White

Kronwall-Stuart

Smith-Ericsson

Kindl

Commodore

Howard

Conklin

...Nothing too drastic. 1) I think Flip is better with Pav, and I think Mule is better with Hank, so I switched those two. 2) Brendan Smith is so much better than Kindl and Commie...come on.

bump...made some changes.

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After last nights loss against the Habs, it has become apparent to me that Babs needs to make some line changes. Zetterberg has 1 goal in his last 19 games and that entire 2nd line, as a whole, has been ineffective. With that said, I think Babs needs to make the following changes.

Zetterberg- Datsyuk- Bertuzzi- I think Hank needs to play with Pavs so he can get going. Pavs is playing in a league of his own and he can feed Hank the puck. I think this will allow Hank to become dominant again, which is important for our success. Also, I want to keep Bert with Pavs because he is having a great year, and he is creating a lot of open ice for Pavs. I think that this would be a great and dominant top line.

Franzen- Filpulla- Hudler- Franzen always plays well with Fil, and Fil is playing very confidently this year, so I think he can man the 2nd line. Hudler has been working hard enough this season to stay on the 2nd line. I think that this will be a very solid 2nd line that can provide offense to go along with the top line.

Miller- Helm- Cleary- has been an extremely solid 3rd line and will eventually be able to score some goals from time to time

Eaves- Abdelkator- Homer- decent 4th line that will be able to establish a forecheck

Lidstrom- White- Arguably the best D pairing in the league, leave them together

Kronners- Stu- Have been solid together except last night

Ericsson- Commie- While I hate Ericsson, he has looked pretty solid when playing with Commie.

I think these lines would be the best bet for the Wings moving forward. Bare in mind, I think Kenny needs to make a move by the deadline.

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After last nights loss against the Habs, it has become apparent to me that Babs needs to make some line changes. Zetterberg has 1 goal in his last 19 games and that entire 2nd line, as a whole, has been ineffective. With that said, I think Babs needs to make the following changes.

Zetterberg- Datsyuk- Bertuzzi- I think Hank needs to play with Pavs so he can get going. Pavs is playing in a league of his own and he can feed Hank the puck. I think this will allow Hank to become dominant again, which is important for our success. Also, I want to keep Bert with Pavs because he is having a great year, and he is creating a lot of open ice for Pavs. I think that this would be a great and dominant top line.

Franzen- Filpulla- Hudler- Franzen always plays well with Fil, and Fil is playing very confidently this year, so I think he can man the 2nd line. Hudler has been working hard enough this season to stay on the 2nd line. I think that this will be a very solid 2nd line that can provide offense to go along with the top line.

Miller- Helm- Cleary- has been an extremely solid 3rd line and will eventually be able to score some goals from time to time

Eaves- Abdelkator- Homer- decent 4th line that will be able to establish a forecheck

Lidstrom- White- Arguably the best D pairing in the league, leave them together

Kronners- Stu- Have been solid together except last night

Ericsson- Commie- While I hate Ericsson, he has looked pretty solid when playing with Commie.

I think these lines would be the best bet for the Wings moving forward. Bare in mind, I think Kenny needs to make a move by the deadline.

Not a bad idea at all...I think the first line would roll...and if the second line got going, which it could, we would be drastically better.

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After last nights loss against the Habs, it has become apparent to me that Babs needs to make some line changes. Zetterberg has 1 goal in his last 19 games and that entire 2nd line, as a whole, has been ineffective. With that said, I think Babs needs to make the following changes.

Zetterberg- Datsyuk- Bertuzzi- I think Hank needs to play with Pavs so he can get going. Pavs is playing in a league of his own and he can feed Hank the puck. I think this will allow Hank to become dominant again, which is important for our success. Also, I want to keep Bert with Pavs because he is having a great year, and he is creating a lot of open ice for Pavs. I think that this would be a great and dominant top line.

Franzen- Filpulla- Hudler- Franzen always plays well with Fil, and Fil is playing very confidently this year, so I think he can man the 2nd line. Hudler has been working hard enough this season to stay on the 2nd line. I think that this will be a very solid 2nd line that can provide offense to go along with the top line.

Miller- Helm- Cleary- has been an extremely solid 3rd line and will eventually be able to score some goals from time to time

Eaves- Abdelkator- Homer- decent 4th line that will be able to establish a forecheck

Lidstrom- White- Arguably the best D pairing in the league, leave them together

Kronners- Stu- Have been solid together except last night

Ericsson- Commie- While I hate Ericsson, he has looked pretty solid when playing with Commie.

I think these lines would be the best bet for the Wings moving forward. Bare in mind, I think Kenny needs to make a move by the deadline.

Dats and Z haven't worked together in like 3 seasons now, I'm unsure why people keep mentioning to put them back together, it's been done, and doesn't work. The 2nd line has pretty much carried the play at home, but has been terrible on the road, so they're only ineffective on the road (granted, this is still a problem, just not as big as what you've said). Bottom line is, at this point our top 2 lines look fairly mediocre. Having to put Bert on a top line is awful. Hudler has been better, but he's still where I think he needs to be. Hank has been just plain bad for how much he's getting paid. His skating, passing, and shooting have all been really bad this year. If Franzen could be a little more consistent a lot of the problems would be gone, but he's a streaky player. At least he's doing alright in points this year.

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No you are missing the fact. Bertuzzi, first of all, is playing outstanding on Pavel's line this season, so he should continue to do so. Also, if we want to win, we NEED Hank to reach the potential that we know he is capable of, and that is not happening by playing with Huds and Fil. Yes, the Eurotwins were together with Cleary at the beginning of hte season and it did not work? Why did it not work? Because CLeary was playing horrible, Hank was playing horrible, and Pavel was playing okay, but not well enough for his standards. Now, Pavel is playing in a league of his own, and Bert is meshing perfectly on his line andI think both will benefit Hank tremendously.

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Dats and Z haven't worked together in like 3 seasons now, I'm unsure why people keep mentioning to put them back together, it's been done, and doesn't work. The 2nd line has pretty much carried the play at home, but has been terrible on the road, so they're only ineffective on the road (granted, this is still a problem, just not as big as what you've said). Bottom line is, at this point our top 2 lines look fairly mediocre. Having to put Bert on a top line is awful. Hudler has been better, but he's still where I think he needs to be. Hank has been just plain bad for how much he's getting paid. His skating, passing, and shooting have all been really bad this year. If Franzen could be a little more consistent a lot of the problems would be gone, but he's a streaky player. At least he's doing alright in points this year.

Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Holmstrom/Cleary hasn't worked out. For some reason, I also think that Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Bertuzzi could be lethal together.

Then if you acquire a real good winger at the deadline, and that second line becomes Filppula, Franzen and *(mystery stud)*...then we might have two lethal lines.

I'd feel very good going into the playoffs under those circumstances.

...assuming Hudler gets dealt

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi

Franzen-Filppula-*Parise* (for instance)

Miller-Helm-Cleary

Abdelkader-Holmstrom/Emmerton/Mursak/Eaves/etc.

Edited by blueadams

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Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Holmstrom/Cleary hasn't worked out. For some reason, I also think that Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Bertuzzi could be lethal together.

Then if you acquire a real good winger at the deadline, and that second line becomes Filppula, Franzen and *(mystery stud)*...then we might have two lethal lines.

I'd feel very good going into the playoffs under those circumstances.

...assuming Hudler gets dealt

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi

Franzen-Filppula-*Parise* (for instance)

Miller-Helm-Cleary

Abdelkader-Holmstrom/Emmerton/Mursak/Eaves/etc.

Hudler dealt for Parise?

Lamoriello isn't that crazy. Who else would be in the deal? Stuart? He wants to play in California and wouldn't waive his no-trade clause to go to Hoboken. None of our prospects or picks would be enough for a Parise.

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He suggested Parise as an example. Obviously it would take more than just Hudler, but he used Hudler as an example of part of what it would take. I agree fully with him in that Hank- Pavs- Bert could become the most dominant line in hockey if given a chance. But I go on to agree with him that I would feel a lot better if Kenny makes a move at the deadline to aquire someone to play on the 2nd line that can chip in offensively. Here are some possibilities on what the 2nd line could look like based on rumors of who the Wings have looked into.

Parise- Fil- Franzen (Obvs the best choice, but very unlikely to happen)

Selenne- Fil- Franzen (Selenne has said he might be willing to waive his clause for a chance to go to a playoff team and the Wings were one of the teams- - I think this would be a GREAT fit and would benefit the Wings huge... he is CLUTCH)

Hemsky- Fil- Franzen (lots of rumors about this, but personally I do not see Kenny going for this, nor do I want him to)

Semin- Fil- Franzen (I don't see the Caps getting rid of him until the offseason, but it could be a good pickup, but again I doubt it)

Ruuto- Fil- Franzen (would be a nice pickup and make the line more solid)

* Based on all of these, I think if Kenny could manage to get Selenne it would make us instant cup favorites as we would have 2 dynamite lines, filled with offense and defense skilled forwards. The Wings problem in the playoffs has been only Pavs, Hank and Nick carrying the load, while there is little scoring elsewhere. The addition of a guy like Selenne could be HUGE for this team.

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Hudler dealt for Parise?

Lamoriello isn't that crazy. Who else would be in the deal? Stuart? He wants to play in California and wouldn't waive his no-trade clause to go to Hoboken. None of our prospects or picks would be enough for a Parise.

If they come to terms with the fact that he's going to leave for nothing as a FA after the season, the price will go down steeply. Hudler...+Kindl (hopefully not Smith)...+Mursak (hopefully not Nyquist or Tatar)...+Emmerton or something (Cleary)?...+1st rd pick

I think we could put something decent enough together.

Edited by blueadams

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