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ogreslayer

2012 Lockout Watch

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I will admit that I am becoming more of a fan of Fehr's as time goes on. The proposal that they put forward seemed to be a good one to me. Its not surprising that the NHL owners turned it down. Still, I just cannot fathom why Fehr is traveling around right now at this critical junction. I know why people are rising as one against Uncle Gary, and rightfully so. At the same time though, I cannot give a pass to Fehr. Both of these guys should be in a room hammering out a deal. When I see these sides meeting for a couple hours and then breaking for the day or waiting for a week before sitting down again with a month left in the season, it just seems to me that both sides don't want to get a deal done in time. I don't care if both sides are posturing. Its going to be bad for the game if there is another lockout, and no one can say without a doubt that it was all Gary's fault. Both parties have got to be available and working towards a deal, and so far, it just feels half assed at this point.

especially when it was the NHL, not the NHLPA that waited until a couple weeks ago to finally table the initial proposal, which was basically insulting to the NHLPA.

If there is a lockout, start supporting your local high school teams, OHL teams, USHL teams, etc. I'm a big Saginaw Spirit fan and that just means I have more money to spend on attending those games.

CHL is awesome. Go to Brandon from time to time to watch the Wheat Kings.

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Anyone trying to blame Bettman fully is overreaching. Anyone saying Bettman is just a mouthpiece with no blame is understating. Gary Bettman makes 8M dollars a year to be a mouthpiece? I don't think so. From wiki:

"6.1 Office of Commissioner, Election and Term of Office The League shall employ a Commissioner selected by the Board of Governors. The Commissioner shall serve as the Chief Executive Officer of the League and is charged with protecting the integrity of the game of professional hockey and preserving public confidence in the League. The Board of Governors shall determine the term of office and compensation of the Commissioner. The Commissioner shall be elected a majority of the Governors present and voting at a League meeting at which a quorum was present when it was convened.“[1]

In Section 6.3, his duties are spelled out as having "responsibility for the general supervision and direction of all business and affairs of the League", co-ordinates matters between member clubs and serves as the principal public spokesman for the League. The Commissioner also has authority over dispute resolution, League committees, interpretation of League rules, appointment of League staff, NHL financial matters, contracting authority, scheduling, officials and disciplinary powers.[2] The Commissioner also determines the date and places of Board of Governor meetings."

Bettman has a HUGE influence on the league and isn't just some puppet to be controlled. He is providing a vision for the owner's and furthermore has FAILED at protecting the integrity of the game and preserving confidence in the league.

The worst part of Bettman is the smug look he has on his face when he tells bad news to the fans. He LOVES playing the villain it seems. He isn't bothered by fans booing and doesn't seem to care too much for the sport of hockey at all, which is part of his job description. This is one of the main reasons I hate Bettman so much but all the rest stands alone too.

P.S. if there is a lockout it would be cool if Z went to Brynas to play with Jarnkrok and groom him/develop a friendship. Fil could go play with Pulks in Jokerit to develop chemistry for the future.

Edited by dirtydangles

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Anyone trying to blame Bettman fully is overreaching. Anyone saying Bettman is just a mouthpiece with no blame is understating. Gary Bettman makes 8M dollars a year to be a mouthpiece? I don't think so. From wiki:

"6.1 Office of Commissioner, Election and Term of Office The League shall employ a Commissioner selected by the Board of Governors. The Commissioner shall serve as the Chief Executive Officer of the League and is charged with protecting the integrity of the game of professional hockey and preserving public confidence in the League. The Board of Governors shall determine the term of office and compensation of the Commissioner. The Commissioner shall be elected a majority of the Governors present and voting at a League meeting at which a quorum was present when it was convened.“[1]

In Section 6.3, his duties are spelled out as having "responsibility for the general supervision and direction of all business and affairs of the League", co-ordinates matters between member clubs and serves as the principal public spokesman for the League. The Commissioner also has authority over dispute resolution, League committees, interpretation of League rules, appointment of League staff, NHL financial matters, contracting authority, scheduling, officials and disciplinary powers.[2] The Commissioner also determines the date and places of Board of Governor meetings."

Bettman has a HUGE influence on the league and isn't just some puppet to be controlled. He is providing a vision for the owner's and furthermore has FAILED at protecting the integrity of the game and preserving confidence in the league.

The worst part of Bettman is the smug look he has on his face when he tells bad news to the fans. He LOVES playing the villain it seems. He isn't bothered by fans booing and doesn't seem to care too much for the sport of hockey at all, which is part of his job description. This is one of the main reasons I hate Bettman so much but all the rest stands alone too.

Love this post. You forgot to bold that part though. Push the meeting up Gary! We want to watch hockey. Football has too many idiots celebrating when they run for 2 yards, Baseball is really boring aside from home runs, and Basketball...I will not even comment on. Get me somef****** hockey in October. I hate the offseason!

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Anyone trying to blame Bettman fully is overreaching. Anyone saying Bettman is just a mouthpiece with no blame is understating. Gary Bettman makes 8M dollars a year to be a mouthpiece? I don't think so. From wiki:

"6.1 Office of Commissioner, Election and Term of Office The League shall employ a Commissioner selected by the Board of Governors. The Commissioner shall serve as the Chief Executive Officer of the League and is charged with protecting the integrity of the game of professional hockey and preserving public confidence in the League. The Board of Governors shall determine the term of office and compensation of the Commissioner. The Commissioner shall be elected a majority of the Governors present and voting at a League meeting at which a quorum was present when it was convened.“[1]

In Section 6.3, his duties are spelled out as having "responsibility for the general supervision and direction of all business and affairs of the League", co-ordinates matters between member clubs and serves as the principal public spokesman for the League. The Commissioner also has authority over dispute resolution, League committees, interpretation of League rules, appointment of League staff, NHL financial matters, contracting authority, scheduling, officials and disciplinary powers.[2] The Commissioner also determines the date and places of Board of Governor meetings."

Bettman has a HUGE influence on the league and isn't just some puppet to be controlled. He is providing a vision for the owner's and furthermore has FAILED at protecting the integrity of the game and preserving confidence in the league.

The worst part of Bettman is the smug look he has on his face when he tells bad news to the fans. He LOVES playing the villain it seems. He isn't bothered by fans booing and doesn't seem to care too much for the sport of hockey at all, which is part of his job description. This is one of the main reasons I hate Bettman so much but all the rest stands alone too.

P.S. if there is a lockout it would be cool if Z went to Brynas to play with Jarnkrok and groom him/develop a friendship. Fil could go play with Pulks in Jokerit to develop chemistry for the future.

Yes, he does a lot and has a lot of control, but that can easily be taken away if the owners are not happy with the job he is doing. He's like the president of a corporation....if the Board doesn't like the direction the president is taking, he will be fired by the Board. Bettman doesn't have the ultimate control over things, the board of govenors do. They are happy with him and what he is doing, that's why he is around and being compensated nicely. As soon as the owners feel he is damaging their product or doing something they don't like, he's gone. It's pretty simple.

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Yes, he does a lot and has a lot of control, but that can easily be taken away if the owners are not happy with the job he is doing. He's like the president of a corporation....if the Board doesn't like the direction the president is taking, he will be fired by the Board. Bettman doesn't have the ultimate control over things, the board of govenors do. They are happy with him and what he is doing, that's why he is around and being compensated nicely. As soon as the owners feel he is damaging their product or doing something they don't like, he's gone. It's pretty simple.

I never said Gary had control. But in spite of the financials, Bettman has failed in his other duties. NHL reffing and rules have been under huge scrutiny and the integrity of the game being questioned. He HAS failed to preserve public confidence. You always see Bettman providing threats in interviews to fans or owners or players etc rather than calmly saying that he hopes there can be an agreement or whatever. Look at his statement in Winnipeg where he called out the fanbase in an extremely negative way when they got their team back. He lacks the ability to make both sides happy. The job description isn't only to make the owners happy, the game as a whole must please the fans as well.

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especially when it was the NHL, not the NHLPA that waited until a couple weeks ago to finally table the initial proposal, which was basically insulting to the NHLPA.

Just the fact that both sides waited until the final hour to start negotiations, and now one party leader is traveling the US which prevents any real work from being done. As I said, no sense of urgency. I have taken the time to watch a lot of video on Fehr and I like how articulate he is. That doesn't help though if he is out traveling while a lockout is 3+ weeks away. We really are in trouble.

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Just the fact that both sides waited until the final hour to start negotiations, and now one party leader is traveling the US which prevents any real work from being done. As I said, no sense of urgency. I have taken the time to watch a lot of video on Fehr and I like how articulate he is. That doesn't help though if he is out traveling while a lockout is 3+ weeks away. We really are in trouble.

Its all a game of chicken. Who panics first. Its going to have to be the owners this time. They have the most to lose in this scenario.

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Remember when they piped Janet Jackson music into a compound to force the people inside to surrender?

Just sayin'.

I honestly think that they should send each other a list of the issues they want discussed, then compile it into one list so that every issue gets addressed, then each side gets to submit their position/stance/demands for each request, and then, if they don't agree in 2 weeks, send it to arbitration.

The arbitrated contract is good for each year until the sides agree on a mutual contract.

No hockey lost. If they don't like what the arbitrator says, or if they don't think they'll like it, then have a squirrel convention (aka get your nuts together).

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Remember when they piped Janet Jackson music into a compound to force the people inside to surrender?

Just sayin'.

I honestly think that they should send each other a list of the issues they want discussed, then compile it into one list so that every issue gets addressed, then each side gets to submit their position/stance/demands for each request, and then, if they don't agree in 2 weeks, send it to arbitration.

The arbitrated contract is good for each year until the sides agree on a mutual contract.

No hockey lost. If they don't like what the arbitrator says, or if they don't think they'll like it, then have a squirrel convention (aka get your nuts together).

the only problem is that Bettman would be considered the arbitrator as commissioner in all likelihood. and we all know what he wants.

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Oops. Meant to quote the person above me. :blush:

I figure it would have to be a neutral third party. Someone who knows little to nothing about the situation. Maybe a committee of the Spice Girls, Mr. Bean, and the Pope.

Edited by 55fan

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I never said Gary had control. But in spite of the financials, Bettman has failed in his other duties. NHL reffing and rules have been under huge scrutiny and the integrity of the game being questioned. He HAS failed to preserve public confidence. You always see Bettman providing threats in interviews to fans or owners or players etc rather than calmly saying that he hopes there can be an agreement or whatever. Look at his statement in Winnipeg where he called out the fanbase in an extremely negative way when they got their team back. He lacks the ability to make both sides happy. The job description isn't only to make the owners happy, the game as a whole must please the fans as well.

Exactly.

That's the point I've been trying to make. Yes Bettman has to answer to the owners, but that's not the limits of his job. He is responsible for the long term health and success of the NHL, which surprising as it may seem, some of these idiot owners down always have that same interest.

He ignored clutch and grab hockey that was ruining the game and hindering the most talented players in the world, saying fans love the game and there wasn't a problem. Then during the lost year of the lockout, suddenly there's all these adjustments being made to fix a problem Bettman wouldn't even acknowledge existed for ten years.

And I've reached the point in my life where I'm busy enough and there's enough other ways I could spend my time that refusing to watch or spend money on the NHL isn't just an idle threat, it's a definite option. As much as I love the sport, why follow a league that could give a crap about its fans?

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No league really gives a crap about its fans. They're big corporations. They could care less. As long as money keeps rolling in, they'll do what they want. When the money stops coming in, they'll make just enough changes to get the cash coming back in. To think anything else is really naivete.

The owners don't care about what you want. The executive offices of the NHL don't care about what you want. The players don't care about what you want. They all just want to make as much money as possible.

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No league really gives a crap about its fans. They're big corporations. They could care less. As long as money keeps rolling in, they'll do what they want. When the money stops coming in, they'll make just enough changes to get the cash coming back in. To think anything else is really naivete.

The owners don't care about what you want. The executive offices of the NHL don't care about what you want. The players don't care about what you want. They all just want to make as much money as possible.

I don't expect them to care about me as a person. But any business should pay attention to its customers and their wants and needs.

The NHL is counting on the fact that its customers love hockey more than they hate the way they're being treated and will come crawling back to continue supporting a business that has little regard for them.

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And the players *don't* want more money? They're being just as greedy as the owners here. I wish everyone would quit acting like the players are being altruistic, and are totally "just out for the fans." If that was the case, why not accept the initial deal? That would get a new CBA in place, and allow the season to start on time. The reason is, the players are greedy too. They see all that pie, and they want more of it than the other guys.

I don't expect them to care about me as a person. But any business should pay attention to its customers and their wants and needs.

The NHL is counting on the fact that its customers love hockey more than they hate the way they're being treated and will come crawling back to continue supporting a business that has little regard for them.

I didn't mean you as in you, just the general "you" that watches hockey. They don't care about the fans in general, because they don't have to. They know that the die hard fans will come back pretty much no matter what. How many changes were made after the last lockout that everyone was outraged about? Yet, league revenue has grown a ton. They won't take any notice or do anything good for fans because they don't have to. Not until they start experiencing some pain in the pocket book.

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And the players *don't* want more money? They're being just as greedy as the owners here. I wish everyone would quit acting like the players are being altruistic, and are totally "just out for the fans." If that was the case, why not accept the initial deal? That would get a new CBA in place, and allow the season to start on time. The reason is, the players are greedy too. They see all that pie, and they want more of it than the other guys.

Who has said anything like that?

The reality is the owners are the ones saying they're still losing tons of money so they need to reduce their primary costs, players salaries. This is in spite of making massive amounts more revenue than in 2004.

Judging by the players proposal, they would be more than happy to stick with the current CBA. Instead the owners want to greatly rollback players percentage of hockey related revenue while also reducing the amount of money that is considered hockey related revenue.

Players aren't "in it for the fans." But they want to play hockey and they want their fair share of the money for bringing in billions of dollars for the owners.

I know people make the argument that millions of dollars they currently make is enough, but that's not really a realistic assessment. They are elite level talent and have a job that takes a high physical toll and risk on the their health. Yes they make great money doing it, but because $1 million is great money compared to what most of us make here, that doesn't mean they should just let owners take the rest. If you had an extremely specialized skill that generated billions of dollars in revenue, would you be okay with the owner of the company getting most of the revenue for your skill? Especially if your job was high risk?

Sorry, this ones more on ownership.

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Who has said anything like that?

The reality is the owners are the ones saying they're still losing tons of money so they need to reduce their primary costs, players salaries. This is in spite of making massive amounts more revenue than in 2004.

Judging by the players proposal, they would be more than happy to stick with the current CBA. Instead the owners want to greatly rollback players percentage of hockey related revenue while also reducing the amount of money that is considered hockey related revenue.

Players aren't "in it for the fans." But they want to play hockey and they want their fair share of the money for bringing in billions of dollars for the owners.

I know people make the argument that millions of dollars they currently make is enough, but that's not really a realistic assessment. They are elite level talent and have a job that takes a high physical toll and risk on the their health. Yes they make great money doing it, but because $1 million is great money compared to what most of us make here, that doesn't mean they should just let owners take the rest. If you had an extremely specialized skill that generated billions of dollars in revenue, would you be okay with the owner of the company getting most of the revenue for your skill? Especially if your job was high risk?

Sorry, this ones more on ownership.

Agreed. It would be silly to suggest the players or owners are not greedy. To be successful, you probably need to develop some form of greed. But it is clear the owners are looking for more money, I don't see that yet from the players. In fact, didn't their proposal reduce the amount of money currently coming their way? They are just trying to keep as much money as possible. They aren't trying to get more.

I have no problem with professional athletes making as much as they do. There are very, very, very few people in the world capable of doing what the do. If you look at almost any other profession, the very top people in their field are making millions. Fact is, the players generate billions in revenues, therefore, they should get a good chunk of that money....question is, how much?

I think the system needs to change. The current proposal from the league is fine, it will help the struggling franchises, but what happens when revenues increase dramatically again (largely driven by the good market teams)....increasing the cap floor again and putting those teams in trouble. The problem with the linkage to league revenues is that it assumes as league revenues grow, each teams' revenues grow at the same rate....which is definately not true. Some might say the solution to that would be to eliminate the floor, but that has 2 problems: 1) players won't like it because less money for them, but more importantly, 2) removes partity which the league was trying to get to as well.

The only solution that makes sense to me is revenue sharing, anything other solution that would help the smaller market teams would simply mean large chunks of money would come out of the players pockets and going into the pockets of the rich teams.

The richest teams in the league are much richer these days than they were 7 years ago, becuase their revenues grew a lot. The poor teams are in the same spot they were 7 years ago because the league revenues grew dramatically, but their didn't. If revenue was shared, there wouldn't be this problem.

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From QuantHockey.com:

Average Length of an NHL Player Career

A typical career of an NHL player can be summarized with one word. Its short! Over half of all NHL players play less that 100 games during their career and for approximately 5 percent of players, their first NHL game is also their last. If we look at this from a different angle, long careers are extremely rare. Only 4 percent of players (that's 1 out of 25) dress up for more than 1000 games.

They have to get it while they can.

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Agreed. It would be silly to suggest the players or owners are not greedy. To be successful, you probably need to develop some form of greed. But it is clear the owners are looking for more money, I don't see that yet from the players. In fact, didn't their proposal reduce the amount of money currently coming their way? They are just trying to keep as much money as possible. They aren't trying to get more.

I have no problem with professional athletes making as much as they do. There are very, very, very few people in the world capable of doing what the do. If you look at almost any other profession, the very top people in their field are making millions. Fact is, the players generate billions in revenues, therefore, they should get a good chunk of that money....question is, how much?

I think the system needs to change. The current proposal from the league is fine, it will help the struggling franchises, but what happens when revenues increase dramatically again (largely driven by the good market teams)....increasing the cap floor again and putting those teams in trouble. The problem with the linkage to league revenues is that it assumes as league revenues grow, each teams' revenues grow at the same rate....which is definately not true. Some might say the solution to that would be to eliminate the floor, but that has 2 problems: 1) players won't like it because less money for them, but more importantly, 2) removes partity which the league was trying to get to as well.

The only solution that makes sense to me is revenue sharing, anything other solution that would help the smaller market teams would simply mean large chunks of money would come out of the players pockets and going into the pockets of the rich teams.

The richest teams in the league are much richer these days than they were 7 years ago, becuase their revenues grew a lot. The poor teams are in the same spot they were 7 years ago because the league revenues grew dramatically, but their didn't. If revenue was shared, there wouldn't be this problem.

Don't we already have revenue sharing? I mean I thougth Nashville was taking advantage of that since they been in the league. What I think a bigger revenue share would do is just more so hide the Owners that are tight wads that don't want to spend the money. If Nashvilles small market couldn't afford all those players they let go in the past then how come they just gave weber one of the biggest deals in franchise history and one of the biggest front loaded deal in all of the history of the nhl? Edited by hillbillywingsfan

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And the players *don't* want more money? They're being just as greedy as the owners here. I wish everyone would quit acting like the players are being altruistic, and are totally "just out for the fans." If that was the case, why not accept the initial deal? That would get a new CBA in place, and allow the season to start on time. The reason is, the players are greedy too. They see all that pie, and they want more of it than the other guys.

I didn't mean you as in you, just the general "you" that watches hockey. They don't care about the fans in general, because they don't have to. They know that the die hard fans will come back pretty much no matter what. How many changes were made after the last lockout that everyone was outraged about? Yet, league revenue has grown a ton. They won't take any notice or do anything good for fans because they don't have to. Not until they start experiencing some pain in the pocket book.

Guilty...I fit in with the bolded part. My feelings are still very hurt when thinking about the lockout hat-trick though. The only thing that makes me feel any better is that I will have witnessed 1 more Red Wings Cup win than lockout....4-3.

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Don't we already have revenue sharing? I mean I thougth Nashville was taking advantage of that since they been in the league. What I think a bigger revenue share would do is just more so hide the Owners that are tight wads that don't want to spend the money. If Nashvilles small market couldn't afford all those players they let go in the past then how come they just gave weber one of the biggest deals in franchise history and one of the biggest front loaded deal in all of the history of the nhl?

They do, but apparently not enough.

Taking more and more money from the players is not really addressing the problem, which is the disparity among franchises. So it's either more revenue sharing, or letting some franchises fail (which seems unlikely).

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I say if it really comes down to it, let them fail. These owners are all rich as hell so if they overspend and fail to get the franchise on track its not the players fault, it is their own damn fault and the dwarf is absolute idiot for not acknowledging that fact. Fehr played it pretty well, now the NHL has to fight the players and itself :-)

There is already revenue sharing if franchises still can 't cut it do something against it, if we end up with less but overall more profitable teams so be it. Funny how the NBA and NFL are always getting mentioned but not the MLB with the luxury tax which is a way better system of course. This is hockey not the NBA, NFL and MLB so who cares what they are doing? Only one guy the dwarf, why not let him be the commissioner of these leagues? Hockey would benefit a great deal from this.

Personally the NHL will lose me for some time if its comes to a lockout, even as die hard fans we need to show them we do care and won't tolerate this s*** every 5 or 8 years.

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From Toronto Star:

Donald Fehr says he plans to speak with

Gary Bettman by phone before the NHL’s collective bargaining negotiations resume next week.

On a conference call with reporters, the executive director of the NHL Players’ Association indicated that he hopes to have a discussion with the NHL commissioner over the weekend.

Like any good pizzeria, Uncle Gary will let it ring a few times; lets people think he's busy.

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