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ogreslayer

2012 Lockout Watch

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Bad, bad news, if true:

"It looks like there will be no more negotiations. Owners have already stated that they won't move away from their position. The lockout may be called even earlier than Sept. 15.

"But right now all the guys are already ready for the League to have a work stoppage. The NHLPA is arranging for insurance coverage for everyone, getting ready to make payments. Fehr told everyone in advance, and a lot of players will go to Europe. Maybe to Russia."

-Ilya Kovalchuk, in an interview with Dmitry Chesnokov. Full interview is here

Edited by Echolalia

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So, in the case of a lockout, how do the contracts work? I would figure they aren't paid but what about years left on a contract?

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Bad, bad news, if true:

"It looks like there will be no more negotiations. Owners have already stated that they won't move away from their position. The lockout may be called even earlier than Sept. 15.

"But right now all the guys are already ready for the League to have a work stoppage. The NHLPA is arranging for insurance coverage for everyone, getting ready to make payments. Fehr told everyone in advance, and a lot of players will go to Europe. Maybe to Russia."

-Ilya Kovalchuk, in an interview with Dmitry Chesnokov. Full interview is here

tumblr_m8eolpAELM1r9uqax.gif

How is that negotiating in good faith? Refusing to let the players play until they cave to every single demand of the owners? I have stayed away from this topic because the whole thing absolutely infuriates me, but this whole strong arm "you'll do what I say when I say or you won't do anything at all" BS is sickening. I'm pissed that I'm most likely going to miss yet another season of the only sport I give two farts about. I'm pissed that I got so excited for the Winter Classic only to have it potentially never come to fruition. But mostly I'm pissed that the rich get richer or take their toys and go home, while the rest of us who pay our hard earned money to support the sport we love continue to get s*** on.

tumblr_m7ikj4VosE1qeti7k.gif

I really hope I'm overreacting and will have a major :blush: moment when the season starts on time, but more and more that's seeming increasingly unlikely...

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Please forgive my laziness, and ignorance, but is there a site that lists the 18 franchises?

Also - is that just "gate receipts", or is the revenue from parking, concessions, etc, etc included?

Here is the article i posted.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2012/05/30/lack-of-economic-parity-could-kill-nhl/

It doesn't list all the franchises, but it does say that 18 are losing money. Thats a lot of franchises. So, while the players are making great money, and 12 of the owners are also happy, there are 18 owners that are in deep trouble. As has been pointed out before, the proposal set forward by Bettman doesn't address the core problem. Same with the proposal by Fehr. Something needs to be done to help the 18 teams for the long haul, and what Bettman or Fehr proposes won't fix that.

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Something needs to be done to help the 18 teams for the long haul, and what Bettman or Fehr proposes won't fix that.

I'm sorry, I'll have to pick at your statement there. If they're going to have to consider keeping 18 teams afloat, then some sort of "contraction clause" has to be in there, so that another Phoenix Coyotes doesn't happen, all the while siphoning millions off the profitable teams. Possible contraction has to be on the table.

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I'm sorry, I'll have to pick at your statement there. If they're going to have to consider keeping 18 teams afloat, then some sort of "contraction clause" has to be in there, so that another Phoenix Coyotes doesn't happen, all the while siphoning millions off the profitable teams. Possible contraction has to be on the table.

We are in complete agreement. The issue here is that ownership isn't going to like that. Nevermind that sometimes, people make poor investment choices. Sometimes teams move in order to become profitable again, like the Thrashers move to Winnipeg.

Contraction has to be on the table

Same goes for a luxury tax system and a no cap floor so teams can spend as little as they want

I could go on and on here, but the simple fact of the matter is that both sides don't want to see the issues they have in front of them. One of the sides is just interested in dealing with rollbacks in salaries and limiting contract length. The other is just interested in giving up some salary for the next couple years, and then it ramps back up to 57% again. Neither of these solutions addresses the problem as a whole.

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Bad, bad news, if true:

"It looks like there will be no more negotiations. Owners have already stated that they won't move away from their position. The lockout may be called even earlier than Sept. 15.

"But right now all the guys are already ready for the League to have a work stoppage. The NHLPA is arranging for insurance coverage for everyone, getting ready to make payments. Fehr told everyone in advance, and a lot of players will go to Europe. Maybe to Russia."

-Ilya Kovalchuk, in an interview with Dmitry Chesnokov. Full interview is here

Safe to say not much of that has truth to it....considering some of it isn't even legally possible (i.e. lockout before Sep. 15th). No more negotiations? Ummm, they are negotiating today.

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I'm sorry, I'll have to pick at your statement there. If they're going to have to consider keeping 18 teams afloat, then some sort of "contraction clause" has to be in there, so that another Phoenix Coyotes doesn't happen, all the while siphoning millions off the profitable teams. Possible contraction has to be on the table.

They are possibly the worst of the bunch, but teams like the Devils, Islanders and a couple others are creeping up awfully close to the Coyotes situation already. I think it's a possibility that Bettman will have to cave and finally move those 3 teams as a starting point. I'm all for the Yotes moving, but teams that actually have a history like like the Isles and Devils i'm not a fan of being moved, but if you have teams like that with no fan support and clearly terrible owners, then you gotta do what you gotta do.

We are in complete agreement. The issue here is that ownership isn't going to like that. Nevermind that sometimes, people make poor investment choices. Sometimes teams move in order to become profitable again, like the Thrashers move to Winnipeg.

Contraction has to be on the table

Same goes for a luxury tax system and a no cap floor so teams can spend as little as they want

I could go on and on here, but the simple fact of the matter is that both sides don't want to see the issues they have in front of them. One of the sides is just interested in dealing with rollbacks in salaries and limiting contract length. The other is just interested in giving up some salary for the next couple years, and then it ramps back up to 57% again. Neither of these solutions addresses the problem as a whole.

3rd paragraph pretty much sums up why we're not going to see hockey this year and why afternoon talks were cancelled yesterday after Buttman's secret squirrel talks.

bolded part....being from Winnipeg, i can see a huge riot in the future. Don't be surprised to see protests in every Canandian city where there's NHL teams.

Just wait for the headlines "What aboot the fans Eh?" :lol:

Edited by Z Winged Dangler

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Contraction has to be on the table

The NHLPA would never agree to contraction, nor would the BOG. The NHLPA would lose ~30 jobs, and the remaining owners would have to pony up to *buy* the team that they want to contract. "Yeah, yeah," you say, "the league already owns the Coyotes," but I doubt they're going to want to flush away the millions of dollars they have been paying over the past couple of seasons. So then you're talking about the Isles or Devils, and getting those teams out of bankruptcy so you can fold them? Not gonna happen.

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I think we're headed to a lockout. A collection of quotes from Twitter after today's meetings wrapped up...

The Forth Period

Bettman addressing media now. "I think it's fair to say that we're far apart (on contract issues)".
Bettman says real issue isn't revenue sharing, said sides are close in that department...

...Bettman says that "the fundamental economic issue" (player contracts, etc) are providing the biggest gap here.

Bettman says NHL and NHLPA will meet tuesday. He says it's "difficult" to make progress and "get on the same page" on economic issues.

Renaud P Lavoie

Gary Bettman: "we are focus on making a deal...nhlpa wants to keep things the way they are, and that is slowing the process."

And Bettman's worst line of all...

Mark Masters

Bettman on damage lockout could do: 'We recovered last time bc we have the world's greatest fans'

To which George Malik has a great response...

When Bettman tosses off the "Greatest Fans" crap, friends, it's time to worry. And pray.

IMO, it's quotes like the above mentioned that are leading to the NHLPA winning the PR war this time. Bettman, and the NHL by extension, are coming off as iron-clad "My way or the highway" types, while Fehr and the PA are sounding very sensible. As evidenced by...

Mark Masters (again)

Fehr: 'We have a lot to do. I have always believed there's enough time.'
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Standard Bettman playbook.

"Lockout lockout lockout. Passive aggressive pot shot at the union. We have the greatest fans, that's why I'm able to treat them like s***. Because I know they'll take the abuse and come crawling back for more."

The NHLPA's proposal certainly isn't perfect but it's a starting point. Throw in some contract limits and modify reverting to the current CBA and you're really close to being done.

The NHL's stance is "thanks for all those concessions in 2004 guys, now empty your pockets. This time we promise we'll figure out how to run a successful franchise."

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And the plot thickens.....http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/08/nhl_owners_will_receive_200_mi.html

Apparently, the owners have covered their ass with NBC. If there is a lockout (which thanks to Bettman and the owners it looks like there will be), NHL owners will receive $200 million from NBC despite not broadcasting a single game. WTF...

Every time Fehr speaks its "we're trying, there's time, we want to improve the game, etc". Every time Uncle Gary speaks its "this is impossible, no one is listening, the players aren't being reasonable, we're doomed, etc". If that isn't an indication of who the bad guys are, I don't know what is.

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Standard Bettman playbook.

"Lockout lockout lockout. Passive aggressive pot shot at the union. We have the greatest fans, that's why I'm able to treat them like s***. Because I know they'll take the abuse and come crawling back for more."

The NHLPA's proposal certainly isn't perfect but it's a starting point. Throw in some contract limits and modify reverting to the current CBA and you're really close to being done.

The NHL's stance is "thanks for all those concessions in 2004 guys, now empty your pockets. This time we promise we'll figure out how to run a successful franchise."

Not sure what else to say but this....great post. The owners first mistake is trying to lower the cap by 14 million after raising it by 2-3 ish right before the deal expired. They shouldn't have a leg to stand on cause they cut them off themselves since the last CBA which was all their doing and the players just had to accept what the owners and NHL tabled and look how things turned out...

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Safe to say not much of that has truth to it....considering some of it isn't even legally possible (i.e. lockout before Sep. 15th). No more negotiations? Ummm, they are negotiating today.

They are meeting today, but if one side is refusing to budge on any issues, then they certainly are not negotiating.

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The two sides in the NHL labour negotiations are hoping to make some progress next week by putting the four main players in the talks in a room together.

NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and deputy commissioner Bill Daly will sit down with players' association executive director Donald Fehr and his brother Steve Fehr, the union's No. 2 man, in a small group session Tuesday.

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I wish swearing would be allowed sometimes - don't worry I know it is not but this dwarf can go f*** himself. Sorry to break your ilusions Gary but the NHLPA wont break like last time.

After reading all the quotes it is so obvious why things aren't going forward NHL wants the moon and players to pay again for Gary and his BS.....Fehr and his team a fair deal.

3 lockout in a row and I will block nhl.com and all official sites for a long time.

Enough is enough

Sent from my BlackBerry

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The two sides in the NHL labour negotiations are hoping to make some progress next week by putting the four main players in the talks in a room together.

NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and deputy commissioner Bill Daly will sit down with players' association executive director Donald Fehr and his brother Steve Fehr, the union's No. 2 man, in a small group session Tuesday.

So, pretty much the exact same thing that happened yesterday. Because that was so productive...

I suppose that if a deal is going to get hammered out, it will likely begin with small group meetings like this. I'm not optimistic, but at least the sides are still scheduling meetings with each other. I just wish they wouldn't wait 5 days between meetings like they have been recently...

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They are meeting today, but if one side is refusing to budge on any issues, then they certainly are not negotiating.

I wish I knew what was being discussed in those meetings and which side was not being flexible. I don't even want to speculate at this point, having only heard the two initial proposals. One proposal from the owners was "Go f*** yourself" and the players proposal was "Lets rollback the salaries a little bit, but in two years, show me the money!" A deal CAN get done here, but both sides have to see the problem first. So far, neither side wants to even acknowledge the real problem.

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I wish I knew what was being discussed in those meetings and which side was not being flexible. I don't even want to speculate at this point, having only heard the two initial proposals. One proposal from the owners was "Go f*** yourself" and the players proposal was "Lets rollback the salaries a little bit, but in two years, show me the money!" A deal CAN get done here, but both sides have to see the problem first. So far, neither side wants to even acknowledge the real problem.

What do you think is the real problem?

Because the union's offer addressed what is the biggest problem with revenue sharing. Their offer seemed basically like "we'll cut you guys a break for a few years and help you sort out these struggling franchises, then we'll revert back to the all the concessions we made 8 years ago." It didn't go far enough as I don't think reverting to the current CBA is a long term solution, but it was definitely acknowledging the problem, and is a solid starting point for negotiating.

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Here are the problems, in my mind.

1. Cap floor is too high.

2. Teams spending too much

3. Contract lengths too high

4. As a result, some teams not able to break even

The players association suggestion was decent, but it didn't go far enough. As you said, good starting point, but not a solution to the problem. What they need is more of a luxury tax system, a slight salary rollback by the players, limit contract terms to 8 years or so, and keep the arbitration. I could go on and on here, but thats the gist of things.

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Blog Here

There are no good guys in the NHL’s labor dispute

There is an incessant need to assign blame in the way we analyze situations. We love our dichotomies. There are good guys and bad guys. People who are at fault and people who are victims. Winners. Losers. So on. So forth.

More often than not though, this isn’t how things work. Rarely, in the grand scheme of things, do things break up so conveniently. It would be magnificent for those of us who have to write about things, but it’s simply not the case. When it is broken up that way, it’s largely fabricated.

I’m here to tell you NHL Labor Dispute 2012 ™ is not Gary Bettman’s fault. It’s not Donald Fehr’s fault. It’s not the owners’ fault. It’s not the players’ fault. It’s their collective fault.

They are all utterly terrible.

Gary Bettman

Gary Bettman is a slime ball, I know this, you know this, your mother who hasn’t watched hockey since Bobby Orr’s rookie season knows this. There’s something incredibly offputting about his demeanor and general approach to dealing with human beings that ignites the rage furnace lying within each of us.

He is the Kurtz of this novel and the NHL, the league we watch 10 months of the year, is his vile abyss. He plucks teams from their homes, he locks the doors on seasons, he conducts boos from center ice like a maniacal conductor playing to the audience.

He postures on how the NHL is working diligently to solve the problems that they have played a starring role in creating. They’ve been ready to negotiate for months apparently, they want to talk it out, it’s that damn NHLPA holding up the process.

We just want to work to get the game back for our fans.

No, he doesn’t. He has a job to do and he doesn’t give a damn about you, or me, or your mother who hasn’t watched since Bobby Orr’s rookie season. He is a mouthpiece, nothing more. A smug, infuriating mouthpiece. Yet, for all of his cons, this is not his fault. He’s playing his part, doing his job and his job is to get what his bosses need and get out.

Donald Fehr

Donald Fehr is a weasel. For those of you who don’t follow the baseball circuit, you didn’t know this when he was hired, but you will soon find out. He causes problems. He did in baseball and he will maintain his performance across sports. Bo Jackson, meet your union head equivalent.

To clear up his track record, he presided over an MLB lockout and lost World Series in 1994 which put a hefty portion of people off the sport. This came before a nice segue into the Steroid Era which brought fans back to the game with DINGERS and alienated them at the same time when the fallout came.

If you’re a player you love this guy and it’s pretty clear why. He doesn’t take crap from the league, Bettman or the media. You know he’s going to get you closer to what you demand. And you know he literally doesn’t care what you think about him.

If you’re going to guess how many damns Donald Fehr gives, set the line at one and take the under.

Again though, like Bettman, he is a mouthpiece, nothing more. He is there to butt heads with Gary Bettman because the players pay him to, and regardless of how much of a jerk he appears to be, it’s barely more than a charade. Everybody has a mortgage to pay, and his need to pay the bill requires an unsavouryness that we have and will come to know.

The Owners

The owners are totally insufferable, aren’t they? I mean seriously. You get coaxed into signing these players for a decade plus and hundreds of millions of dollars and then cry poor come negotiation time. You weren’t poor two weeks ago, how are you poor now?

If you want a league with a sustainable economic structure, perhaps you shouldn’t be handing out contracts to the Rick DiPietro’s of the world which put them on various Forbes lists for the world’s wealthiest people despite the fact he doesn’t work very much. Wouldn’t it be nice to have 82 paid sick days a year?

Obviously this is hyperbole, but still. Completely ridiculous.

Again though, this is ultimately what the fans want from their teams. To assemble a winner at all costs, financial or otherwise. What do we care anyways? They’re loaded, they can afford it. Who cares if we’re stuck with Rick DiPietro for another 332 years? Or Alexei Yashin for the rest of his life? I want titles dammit!

Yet, we don’t want this. Nobody wants this. We have created a monster.

Charles Wang, you have set a dangerous precedent that became much much worse once you made Ed Snider think you were on to something.

The Players

I understand that it’s tough for people to see how the players are at fault in this scenario, but it’s really not that tough to understand. You can’t blame these guys for signing outrageous contracts because that’s not how things work. I have a hard time believing any of us wouldn’t take all of the money for several years if we had the offers, but the rhetoric gets tiring.

Just so we’re clear on a couple of things here… players complaining about the way rules are enforced for safety reasons is a joke. You want to stop getting hit in the head or plowed from behind? Don’t hit anyone in the head or plow them from behind. A riveting concept, I know.

Also, this hockey brotherhood business is a little confusing. I know they’re all brothers and such when the camera is rolling, but the on-ice atmosphere is considerably different. It’s very cute seeing guys with a history of run-ins bro-hugging their way through union meetings.

Also, do overseas players count as part of the hockey brotherhood? Because I don’t think it’ll feel that way when NHLers hop overseas to take their jobs during a lockout. I wouldn’t do that to my brother. Well, unless he was a real jerk.

The players here are completely self-interested and self-absorbed, like every other party here, only they have less riding on this than anyone because they will be hired no matter what. The players are just as guilty of jobbing the fans as our previous three nutbar parties and you better not let them off the hook in the court of public opinion.

Conclusions

Everybody in this situation sucks. They are all flat out terrible. Bettman is a fink, Fehr is a rat, the owners are hypocrites who need to be saved from themselves, and the players don’t give a damn because they’re going to get paid no matter what, it’s just a matter of where and whose job they’re taking.

The lockout, forthcoming at that, is not as simple as being Bettman’s fault, Fehr’s fault, the owners’ fault or the players’ fault. Anyone who tells you to zero in on one is lying to you and probably has an agenda. It’s not black and white but it is that simple.

Collective bargaining means collective blame.

Edited by drwscc
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Blog Here

There are no good guys in the NHL’s labor dispute

There is an incessant need to assign blame in the way we analyze situations. We love our dichotomies. There are good guys and bad guys. People who are at fault and people who are victims. Winners. Losers. So on. So forth.

There's a lot of flawed logic in this post, but I'll respond for now to the lowest hanging fruit, which is the players role in all of this.

The Players

I understand that it’s tough for people to see how the players are at fault in this scenario, but it’s really not that tough to understand. You can’t blame these guys for signing outrageous contracts because that’s not how things work. I have a hard time believing any of us wouldn’t take all of the money for several years if we had the offers, but the rhetoric gets tiring.

Just so we’re clear on a couple of things here… players complaining about the way rules are enforced for safety reasons is a joke. You want to stop getting hit in the head or plowed from behind? Don’t hit anyone in the head or plow them from behind. A riveting concept, I know.

Typically the players complaining about getting hit in the head aren't the ones who are headhunting. I don't remember Raffi Torres saying they need to protect players heads.

You're talking about hundreds upon hundreds of people here. They're not all going to speak with the same voice and play the game the same way. As long as headhunting and running at guys gets a 4th liner more minutes and an NHL contract, there'll be dirtbags willing to do it.

Also, this hockey brotherhood business is a little confusing. I know they’re all brothers and such when the camera is rolling, but the on-ice atmosphere is considerably different. It’s very cute seeing guys with a history of run-ins bro-hugging their way through union meetings.

That's pretty much how competition works. Most players want to do almost anything they can to win, but there's also a mutual respect (among most) as professional hockey players. Haven't you ever seen to guys drop the gloves and go at it, then pat each other on the back when the fight ends? There's a big difference between trying to win a game and dealing with your career and financial well being. In the latter they all have similar interests, the former they don't.

Also, do overseas players count as part of the hockey brotherhood? Because I don’t think it’ll feel that way when NHLers hop overseas to take their jobs during a lockout. I wouldn’t do that to my brother. Well, unless he was a real jerk.

The players here are completely self-interested and self-absorbed, like every other party here, only they have less riding on this than anyone because they will be hired no matter what. The players are just as guilty of jobbing the fans as our previous three nutbar parties and you better not let them off the hook in the court of public opinion.

How exactly are they self absorbed?? Are they too busy checking their reflection in a mirror or writing in their diaries to hear what Bettman is saying?

And I have no idea what playing overseas has to do with anything.

No one is portraying these guys to be saints, but the players are nowhere near as guilty as the other parties. They don't put a gun to anyones head when they're offered a contract. They made massive concessions in the last CBA. Not just the cap, but linking that cap to revenue while having absolutely zero say in how the team or league is run.

Yes of course they're self interested. They want their fair share of the pie. But in the list of culprits for a potential lockout, Bettman and most franchise owners are at the very top and the players are at the very bottom. Fehr and the union leadership are somewhere in the middle.

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