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RedWingsRox

Holland losing his moxie? Is Detroit slipping as UFA destination?

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lmao nice redirection there.

This has nothing to do with hall of famers and not one of the players you listed is an overpaid has been anyway....with the exception of Samuelsson...and Homer won't be playing for us this season so yeah.

If you knew anything about the wings you'd know we are notorious for keeping our talent in the minors for long periods of time. Smith has been NHL ready for years and only now is getting his first shot at a full NHL season. Has nothing to do with the caliber of the prospect and everything to do with our development philosophy.

Yakupov would be starting the season in the minors on this team. Unless your the next Pavel Datsyuk that's the way things work.

I argue that if you knew anything about the wings, you now know that for years and years holding back talent in the minors was a luxury for this club. One that they are no longer able to afford i'm affriad. Whith so many oppertunities now available for these younger players, I feel that it will only thin our prospects pool even further.

esteef, centcougar07 and Red Crazy like this

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So we just "over-ripen" players for the hell of it. Even if they could help us win more games now because they're better than current players. We just wont let em play. Nope.

Youve been listening to the Wings announcers too long. The Wings farm system is full of mediocre talent that is not making an impact on the big club, and that "over-ripening" b.s. is just a way to put lipstick on the pig.

Really? cause pretty much every credible source on farm system talent would disagree with you. Our prospect pool is one of the highest ranked in the league. But lemme guess... you some how know better than they do right?

To the rest of your post I'll say it again.....

uhhhhhh cause we overipen them.....I don't think your understanding...this is not MY philosophy or MY interpretation, It's the franchises and they openly operate this way. Almost every wings fan knows this....some how I'm not surprised you don't. You can disagree with it all you want but its not going to change things. The wings always choose mature veterans over 18 - 23 yr olds, plain and simple. Guys like Jurco wouldn't do a better job at guys like Abdelkaders role anyway...

I argue that if you knew anything about the wings, you now know that for years and years holding back talent in the minors was a luxury for this club. One that they are no longer able to afford i'm affriad. Whith so many oppertunities now available for these younger players, I feel that it will only thin our prospects pool even further.

Not sure what your trying to argue here.....?

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I have to believe that the problem is not Holland or that the Wings are not the premier place for free agents but, that the city of detroit and all of its' problems have made the top free agents head to other cities, that have more to offer.

Completely disagree! While Detroit is a tragic mess the rest of the region has some realy nice cities and a collection of great places to live as a single person or raise a family.

The problem is that we don't have a collection of tallent that other players really want to play with. Kronner, Pav & Hsnk are not enough.

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In the players poll this past season Detroit was voted as the team players would most want to play for, and It's widely believed we were Suters #2 choice.....don't understand how that means were not a top UFA destination still

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Not sure what your trying to argue here.....?

Not arguing anything here. Just bringing light to the fact that what you know of the redwings and how they conducted buisness in the past is history. This "developmental philosophy" that you speak of is about to morph drastically too. This is the begining of life after Nick and Stevie. Those two guys were the reasons why we could draw free agents here. It had nothing to do with the suburbs or our claim to be "hockeytown". Those two were winners. Anybody would have followed them. Sad truth is, this team just isnt as attractive without them. In my opinion that changes EVERYTHING. I'm not saying it's going to be tough from here on out but i am saying, things are going to be allot different now.

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If our talent pool is so good, why resign Bertuzzi, sign Brunner, sign Samuelson, sign Tootoo, etc etc etc. I think Emmerton is the only guy we have that is a legit NHLer because of his spped. Hopefully, Brunner's speed will be as advertised as well. We need it. Holland not getting anybody this off-season has put us in sink or swim mode, which is probably going to be hard to stomach but is probably not a bad thing long term. At least we will know what these young guys can do instead of arguing about it!!!

Xraymind7781 and centcougar07 like this

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Not arguing anything here. Just bringing light to the fact that what you know of the redwings and how they conducted buisness in the past is history. This "developmental philosophy" that you speak of is about to morph drastically too. This is the begining of life after Nick and Stevie. Those two guys were the reasons why we could draw free agents here. It had nothing to do with the suburbs or our claim to be "hockeytown". Those two were winners. Anybody would have followed them. Sad truth is, this team just isnt as attractive without them. In my opinion that changes EVERYTHING. I'm not saying it's going to be tough from here on out but i am saying, things are going to be allot different now.

I see where your coming from but I completely disagree. Players come here to win....not to play with one man....Nick is gone yes but this is not a gutter team, we still have a very competitive roster and I'm willing to bet there will be more additions before February is over.

Also Hollands philosophy does not revolve around the comings and goings of Nick Lidstrom....If everything is "different now" then why did we sign Samuelsson? It's cause none of our prospects are ready in Hollands eyes yet so he signed a band-aid player.....We only have 1 prospect guaranteed to be trickling in and thats Smith....There are no holes our prospects MUST fill...they will continue to over-ripen as they've always done.

Edited by number9

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i'd buy the band aid argument if it was a one year deal. But its 3 years. So i think holland is losing.

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hahahah says the guy who obviously knows nothing about our development system

Howard

Kronwall

Filppula

Hudler

Quincey

Helm

Abdelkader

Ericsson

all developed with the griffins....

the only way you go straight to the wings is if your name is Datsyuk or Zetterberg....we over-ripen the rest of em

Based on that list, you'll have a lot of overrated, average and bottom six NHL'ers in a few years! I'm not sure that's the plan you wanna have.

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I see where your coming from but I completely disagree. Players come here to win....not to play with one man....Nick is gone yes but this is not a gutter team, we still have a very competitive roster and I'm willing to bet there will be more additions before February is over.

Also Hollands philosophy does not revolve around the comings and goings of Nick Lidstrom....If everything is "different now" then why did we sign Samuelsson? It's cause none of our prospects are ready in Hollands eyes yet so he signed a band-aid player.....We only have 1 prospect guaranteed to be trickling in and thats Smith....There are no holes our prospects MUST fill...they will continue to over-ripen as they've always done.

I agree with this in parts. Players did come here to win. As this team sits, it is not a contender. As of right now, players are not coming here to win. I realize this is just one off season. But the fact remains, this is not a cup contending team. Again anything can happen but you heard Babcocks complaints at the end of last year. Scoring hasnt improved and to boot the defense is allot weaker. This is not an atrractive scenario to anyhone who wants to win.

As for Hollands philosophy not revolving around the coming and going of Lidstrom; I don't know how this comment could be further from reality. Everything he does from here on out will revolve around suring up the void left by Lidstroms unworldly talent. Ken Holland is a great GM, but nobody could have prepaired for life after possibly the greatest defenseman to ever play the game. Ken Hollands philosophy just left the building. He's working hard now on building a new one.

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Based on that list, you'll have a lot of overrated, average and bottom six NHL'ers in a few years! I'm not sure that's the plan you wanna have.

Howard? premier #1 goaltender

Kronwall? top 2 D-man

Filppula? top 6 forward

Hudler? top 6 forward

Quincey? top 4 D-man

plz keep ur crack smoking in Minnesota

Z Winged Dangler likes this

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I agree with this in parts. Players did come here to win. As this team sits, it is not a contender. As of right now, players are not coming here to win. I realize this is just one off season. But the fact remains, this is not a cup contending team. Again anything can happen but you heard Babcocks complaints at the end of last year. Scoring hasnt improved and to boot the defense is allot weaker. This is not an atrractive scenario to anyhone who wants to win.

As for Hollands philosophy not revolving around the coming and going of Lidstrom; I don't know how this comment could be further from reality. Everything he does from here on out will revolve around suring up the void left by Lidstroms unworldly talent. Ken Holland is a great GM, but nobody could have prepaired for life after possibly the greatest defenseman to ever play the game. Ken Hollands philosophy just left the building. He's working hard now on building a new one.

I forgot you can tell the future.....for all you know Brunner is the real deal and Smith is the next coming.

And as for Lidstrom comments....yeah we lost Lidstrom....we dont have a Lidstrom anymore, BUT NIETHER DOES ANY OTHER TEAM. We have just as much of a chance to win the cup as any other premier team. for pete sake LA was an 8 seed and NJ was a 6. get real anything can happen int he playoffs.

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Exactly. We need some of these "prospects" that are "over-ripening" to actually turn out to be GOAL SCORERS.

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Number9, youre dreaming. I want to have your optimism, but we are 3 moves away from cup contention and everyone knows it. We need 1 really good defenseman (Yandle). We need one really good goal scorer (Ryan). And we need one really tough big guy (??). Problem is we have to make holes to fill holes with these players. With Parise and Suter it was just a matter of money. Holland wasnt willing to spend it.

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Number9, youre dreaming. I want to have your optimism, but we are 3 moves away from cup contention and everyone knows it. We need 1 really good defenseman (Yandle). We need one really good goal scorer (Ryan). And we need one really tough big guy (??). Problem is we have to make holes to fill holes with these players. With Parise and Suter it was just a matter of money. Holland wasnt willing to spend it.

so sorry, im done feeding the troll

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Your argument has failed with others, as well. So you resort to name calling? Tell me why a lot of us our nervous that these Griffins and new comers arent the answer and that trades are necessary now to ice a competitive team. Why do you feel different? Brunner has never played NHL hockey. Nyquist can count his NHL goals on one hand. Tootoo and Samuelsson were let go by other teams. And we didnt replace a 7 time Norris winner with anyone substantial. How do you feel good about all of this?

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Unlike the NBA, where a handful of teams are starting to dominate the FA market for numerous reasons, I don't think the Wings organization is slipping. Bottom line is money talks. Other's are spending it this off season and the Wings aren't. With that said, it's been a disappointing off season for me.

___________________________________________________________________

"I've had many problems in my life, most of which were imagined." - Mark Twain

Chuck Dee - AKA Chris

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This summer has been disappointing for Wings fans. However what would you guys have had Holland do? He tried for Parise and Suter and they both chose Minny. He made an offer for Rick Nash and Howson didn't even make a counter offer. He had interest in Weber but had had no chance to give him an Offer Sheet. He was not going to give Semin 7 mil a year. Pay Semin more than Dats and Z? He made an offer for Doan but he wants too much term and money. He is 35 years old not 30. So is he supposed to sign average players to ridiculous contracts just to get to the Cap? Would you guys like him to sign Kubina for 4 mil? Colaiacovo for 4 mil? Huselius for 5 mil? Does this really improve the team? I agree that Kenny does need to s*** or get off the pot. But I believe him when he says "it has to make sense." We don't know what other teams are offering. Maybe every trade discussion begins and ends with WE WANT BRENDAN SMITH. I just don't see what Kenny can do right now other than going with what we have and hoping guys can step up their play. Guys like Flip, Kron, Jimmy, Pavs, Z, Mule, Helm, Abs, Quincey, Ericsson, etc. Wouldn't it be nice to have all this Cap space during the season or at the deadline when other teams are capped out and a guy like Iginla suddenly becomes available? I'd take that over "we should trade for JBO."

Edited by Hatethedrake!

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I forgot you can tell the future.....for all you know Brunner is the real deal and Smith is the next coming.

And as for Lidstrom comments....yeah we lost Lidstrom....we dont have a Lidstrom anymore, BUT NIETHER DOES ANY OTHER TEAM. We have just as much of a chance to win the cup as any other premier team. for pete sake LA was an 8 seed and NJ was a 6. get real anything can happen int he playoffs.

that's exactly what i said when Lids retired, but we've been agreeing on things all summer while most people are discounting everyone in the Wings org from Holland to Brunner saying people need to be hanged and ALL of our prospects and signings aren't gonna measure up and will be busts. what a pathetic offseason...and not by Holland.

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Holland struck out with Suter and Parise. We will see what kind of a genius he is now.

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Not Holland's fault for no "big names" coming to Detroit since Hossa. People are smoking crack or something damn. This thread bugs me too. lol

You know what bugs me? This mentality that Holland is, essentially, infallible, and that anyone who criticizes him and/or the Wings at large is smoking crack, or spoiled, or insane, etc. I like Holland as much as the next guy. No, really, I do. But, objectively? We're in a hole. A big one. And if there's anyone to blame, it's Holland. Now, in saying that, am I calling for Holland's head? No. Am I saying the sky is falling? No. Am I "hating" this team and being a "fairweather fan"? No. Am I disregarding his career accomplishments? No. Am I saying he's anything less than the best GM in the league? No. I'm saying he has s*** the bed, and it bothers me. One of the main reasons why it bothers me is that I do like Holland as much as the next guy, and I do respect and appreciate him and the work he has done (and does on a mostly daily basis). So, for me to look at where things are now and try to reconcile that with "Best GM Ever, Man With The Plan"...it's troubling. I'm all for cutting him slack, and believing in a Master Plan which subsumes all of these smaller "failures." But at the same time - GMing 101, man! We've had trouble scoring in the postseason for how long? Our bottom-6 has been too small and short on secondary scoring threats for how long? Our D - everyone knew Stuart would be leaving and that Nick would be gone any offseason now, very possibly even this offseason. So where are the moves? Where are the steps taken to rectify, or at least seriously address, (or hell, even just acknowledge), these problems? Why is Kyle Quincey our one new-blood on the back end? Why is Ian White our #2 defenseman? Why is our top-6 literally all "skilled" Euros, when our whole problem with scoring in the postseason is we're easily pushed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone (as we've seen happen in the postseason about 90 times)? The top-6 is a real sore point for me. We need new ingredients in the top-6, new dimensions, new looks we can throw, new ways we can hurt. What we've added this offseason is a retread who may not even be a regular in the top-6, a guy who's never played a single game in the NHL, and Nyquist. And we're calling it a Youth Movement - when, in fact, it's really more of a "s***, what else can we do?" indirect admission of failure. Holland is great largely because he's always found a way to keep us from falling into exactly this sort of black hole of "necessary mediocrity" (i.e. having only 2-3 trade assets, losing luster as a FA destination, etc.) What do we do if we lose three key players to injury and they're out all at the same time? We realize this forward "depth" people keep bragging about is really more a matter of quantity than one of quality.

Ugh.

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You know what bugs me? This mentality that Holland is, essentially, infallible, and that anyone who criticizes him and/or the Wings at large is smoking crack, or spoiled, or insane, etc. I like Holland as much as the next guy. No, really, I do. But, objectively? We're in a hole. A big one. And if there's anyone to blame, it's Holland. Now, in saying that, am I calling for Holland's head? No. Am I saying the sky is falling? No. Am I "hating" this team and being a "fairweather fan"? No. Am I disregarding his career accomplishments? No. Am I saying he's anything less than the best GM in the league? No. I'm saying he has s*** the bed, and it bothers me. One of the main reasons why it bothers me is that I do like Holland as much as the next guy, and I do respect and appreciate him and the work he has done (and does on a mostly daily basis). So, for me to look at where things are now and try to reconcile that with "Best GM Ever, Man With The Plan"...it's troubling. I'm all for cutting him slack, and believing in a Master Plan which subsumes all of these smaller "failures." But at the same time - GMing 101, man! We've had trouble scoring in the postseason for how long? Our bottom-6 has been too small and short on secondary scoring threats for how long? Our D - everyone knew Stuart would be leaving and that Nick would be gone any offseason now, very possibly even this offseason. So where are the moves? Where are the steps taken to rectify, or at least seriously address, (or hell, even just acknowledge), these problems? Why is Kyle Quincey our one new-blood on the back end? Why is Ian White our #2 defenseman? Why is our top-6 literally all "skilled" Euros, when our whole problem with scoring in the postseason is we're easily pushed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone (as we've seen happen in the postseason about 90 times)? The top-6 is a real sore point for me. We need new ingredients in the top-6, new dimensions, new looks we can throw, new ways we can hurt. What we've added this offseason is a retread who may not even be a regular in the top-6, a guy who's never played a single game in the NHL, and Nyquist. And we're calling it a Youth Movement - when, in fact, it's really more of a "s***, what else can we do?" indirect admission of failure. Holland is great largely because he's always found a way to keep us from falling into exactly this sort of black hole of "necessary mediocrity" (i.e. having only 2-3 trade assets, losing luster as a FA destination, etc.) What do we do if we lose three key players to injury and they're out all at the same time? We realize this forward "depth" people keep bragging about is really more a matter of quantity than one of quality.

Ugh.

It's a very difficult thing to keep a team a Stanley Cup contender for your entire time as a General Manager. Maybe this current situation was just unavoidable? Why does it have to be Holland failed to make the right moves, when it could very well be there was no moves to be made? Why do people have to attribute blame to someone for a situation they couldn't even begin to understand?

If you want to blame Holland for going after Quincey, that's understandable. It was a move that was documented and can be looked back on. Quincey was had for a non-roster player, and has shown glimpses of being a very good top 4 dman in the past. He's got size, speed, and puck skills just a matter of him understanding and getting comfortable in the system.

What moves did you want him to do to replace Lidstrom? There hasn't been a defenseman moved the past 5 years that can even be considered a top 10 defenseman? What ass do you want Holland to place his hand up to find one? Ian White was great signing this past year

Hard to change your top 6 through trade. Especially a top 6 that is intact of being Stanley Cup champions and helping the team make the playoff year in year out. Sure it would be nice to change it up, they've struggled the past few playoffs. But Nash wasn't an option, and personally I'm not sold on him. Semin would be a rental and I don't believe would ever help you win a Stanley Cup, and I'd rather give Nyquist/Brunner and shot at the top 6 than Semin. Just so we can see what we have and if we need to move on or what.

A game hasn't even been played, all of this is based on paper. On paper what if Datsyuk/Zetterberg go back to 90+ points, Filpulla reproduces 60, Quincey goes back to 09 and gets .7 ppg, Kronwall has a 50 point season, Howard continues to prove to be a top 10 goalie, Smith/Nyquist has a Calder caliber season, Sammy gives you 50 points, Bertuzzi, gives you 40. Things don't have to be all negative, these are all possibilities as each player has proved to do this(Smith/Nyquist may be a leap of faith, but they've proved to be very very good AHLers at a young age and that trends positively to their production in the NHL),

Then maybe players that have yet to prove themselves will, Ericsson could finally learn to block a shot, Kindl may figure out the NHL and use his talent, Helm might learn how to hit a corner and stickhandle, Abdelkader/Tootoo can feed off of each other and really make that 4th line into a force that helps the entire team, Franzen may decide to play 80 games at full speed.

It doesn't have to be negative, this situation isn't all bad, and saying our prospect pool is not good just proves that you are trying to find disappointment, and if that's the case you don't have to look hard at any team's situation.

Edited by Carman
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