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RedWingsRox

Holland losing his moxie? Is Detroit slipping as UFA destination?

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Best position that was possible? Yes. I thoroughly believe he did all he could to sign the only players that would have helped us win a Stanley Cup. I like the position we are in, we don't have to face the possibility of losing Horton/Seguin/Marchand/Lucic/Rask like Boston, they are right up on the cap and will probably lose someone. That's going on with a lot of the teams New York(7 forwards need to be re-signed in 14).

There is only so much you can do, Holland can't just make a good player appear in free agency, or trades. If Ryan, or Yandle gets traded for scraps then blame Holland, but these players haven't even moved yet. Semin is not going to fix any long term issues, Doan is going to be overpaid a lot which would be fine if the contract wasn't going to be long(4 years).

The future looks fine for Detroit even if you don't want to believe it's true.

If you're ONLY counting this offseason, then yes, he "tried". Way to go Kenny!

esteef

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If you're ONLY counting this offseason, then yes, he "tried". Way to go Kenny!

esteef

He did get Ian White who was the among if not the best defenseman out of his free agent class. Did you want Erhoff? That sure would help defensively especially with that delicious 10 year deal.

Who did you want? Can you name someone?

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He did get Ian White who was the among if not the best defenseman out of his free agent class. Did you want Erhoff? That sure would help defensively especially with that delicious 10 year deal.

Who did you want? Can you name someone?

Here we go again! :lol: I want him to address the team's needs as they arise, not wait until all of them have to be addressed in one offseason. Do the best GMs in the league do that? Wait til the last minute to address a buttload of needs when some of them have been obvious for years? Come now. Your relentless defense of everything Holland does (or does not do) is pathetic. He's a good GM but he has not put this team in the best position possible as you say.

esteef

pondrocket likes this

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Here we go again! :lol: I want him to address the team's needs as they arise, not wait until all of them have to be addressed in one offseason. Do the best GMs in the league do that? Wait til the last minute to address a buttload of needs when some of them have been obvious for years? Come now. Your relentless defense of everything Holland does (or does not do) is pathetic. He's a good GM but he has not put this team in the best position possible as you say.

esteef

It's so easy to be pessimistic, put yourself in his shoes. Search for what moves would have made sense, Instead of giving up, putting your head in the sand and saying he sucks seek out what he should have done. How was this situation avoidable? With little cap space last year would have sacrificed the last season of Lidstrom to try and get Luke Schenn? Do you think he would have been the answer for the long term? How about Brent Burns? Would the trades have put us in a better position. I'm not going to shoot any move down, I'm looking myself, I want to explore what his options were.

Are you not sold on 26 year old Quincey who has a .70 PPG season under his belt ever becoming good? Why does the situation have to be dire, why can't Datsyuk and Zetterberg have a 80+ point season? Why does Cleary have to underachieve again this year, why can't Howard take a step and become elite.

What reason is there that Smith can't become a very good rookie defenseman(He's proven just as much in AHL as any past rookie d man), Why was Samuelsson a bad signing? He's been productive and is proven over the course of his career to provide 40+ points.

Edited by Carman

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It's so easy to be pessimistic, put yourself in his shoes. Search for what moves would have made sense, Instead of giving up, putting your head in the sand and saying he sucks seek out what he should have done. How was this situation avoidable? With little cap space last year would have sacrificed the last season of Lidstrom to try and get Luke Schenn? Do you think he would have been the answer for the long term? How about Brent Burns? Would the trades have put us in a better position. I'm not going to shoot any move down, I'm looking myself, I want to explore what his options were.

Are you not sold on 26 year old Quincey who has a .70 PPG season under his belt ever becoming good? Why does the situation have to be dire, why can't Datsyuk and Zetterberg have a 80+ point season? Why does Cleary have to underachieve again this year, why can't Howard take a step and become elite.

What reason is there that Smith can't become a very good rookie defenseman(He's proven just as much in AHL as any past rookie d man), Why was Samuelsson a bad signing? He's been productive and is proven over the course of his career to provide 40+ points.

So that's it? Wait til the last minute and when you get nothing you want, simply claim everyone will overachieve? Whatever dood. The situation ain't "dire" but it damn sure ain't the best possible position either.

esteef

pondrocket likes this

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a lot of you are forgetting that Howard was easily the best player on the ice last year in a good number of games for us....pre injury decimation included.

yet he had a sub .90 save %. Our team collectively played great in the middle of the season and played sub par the last part of the season and the whole 5 playoff games.

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My point exactly. I want to see how he does post Lidstrom and without a good defense in front of him. He's proven he can be steady when he's got the best defenseman in the game in front of him but lets be honest what goaltender wouldn't look better with Lidstrom on the team. Not to mention Stuart who is much better than Kronwall in my opinion. I don't expect Howard will be awful, but I'm guessing his numbers will drop.

Lidstrom plays 24-25 mins a night. The rest of the night there's other dmen in front of Howard not named Nick Lidstrom. Just sayin'

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So that's it? Wait til the last minute and when you get nothing you want, simply claim everyone will overachieve? Whatever dood. The situation ain't "dire" but it damn sure ain't the best possible position either.

esteef

Maybe not "best possible" if you have the luxury of hindsight to base your decisions on, but we were in damn good position coming into this offseason. I doubt you or anyone else would be complaining about the "plan" had we landed Suter and Parise, or even just Suter.

Thing is, if you don't know beforeheand how everything will work out, you can't make a plan to account for every contingency. Any plan, or set of plans, can still fail. Especially when the rules are designed against you, and 29 other teams competing against you. Some things are just out of your control. Maybe if he'd known beforehand that none of Ehrhoff, Bieksa, Pitkanen, or Wisniewski would actually make it to free agency he would have been willing to trade for their rights. But on the other hand, maybe he'd have done that and not have been able to sign them anyway, wasting a pick. Or maybe had we signed one, we wouldn't have signed White or traded for Quincey, leaving us still in a very similar situation. Maybe we trade Flip, Smith, and a 1st for Burns...and don't sign White, and without Jurco and Ouellet in the system we don't give up a 1st for Quincey, then Burns doesn't re-sign and our defense now is Kronwall, Ericsson, and Kindl. Or maybe we do add one of them and everything works out great. Point is, having plans doesn't mean they will work.

Furthermore, you're ignoring what he has done, acting like his failure to make a move to your satisfaction is the same as not doing anything at all. He re-signed Kronwall and Ericsson. Added White and Quincey. Held on to Smith when he might easily have traded him. Avoided "just because" cap spending so we'd be in position to go after Suter, and would have been even without the big cap increase and/or if Nick had decided to play another season. Suter was a good plan. Unfortunately, it didn't work. Life goes on. Off-season isn't even over yet, nor do we know yet how the team will come together or how the younger guys will perform. For that matter, I still don't see what's so catastrophic about maybe having a down year or two. Philly went from 95-100+ point seasons to a league worst 56 (worst record since the lockout), right back to 95-100+ and playing in the finals a few years later.

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Lidstrom plays 24-25 mins a night. The rest of the night there's other dmen in front of Howard not named Nick Lidstrom. Just sayin'

Lidstrom takes care of the Getzlafs and Perrys. The other guys take care of the 3rd and 4th line scrubs. Howard will get lit up this year. And thats ok, as long as Smith, Kindl, and Ericsson learn how to come together and improve as a unit.

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Lidstrom takes care of the Getzlafs and Perrys. The other guys take care of the 3rd and 4th line scrubs. Howard will get lit up this year. And thats ok, as long as Smith, Kindl, and Ericsson learn how to come together and improve as a unit.

No, I've played and watched hockey all my life and yes matchups matter, but Lidstrom was never responsible for taking one or two players out of the game. It doesn't work like how your suggesting.

Z Winged Dangler likes this

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yet he had a sub .90 save %. Our team collectively played great in the middle of the season and played sub par the last part of the season and the whole 5 playoff games.

We've been over how little substance his save percentage in that series has as an indicator of how well he played. And the fellow was likely mostly referring to the first half of the season, in which Howard kept the team out of the basement.

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Oh yes, I forgot, Sammy's gonna save us. And you think Kenny has this team in the "best position" right now? Good grief.

esteef

If you don't think Sammy if going to help YOU sir are the crazy one. The opposing team's goalie can only take so many shots to the chest it has to start hurting at some point. He will wear a hole in the goalies chest pads then what?...we win.=) hehe
WingsAlways likes this

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Maybe not "best possible" if you have the luxury of hindsight to base your decisions on, but we were in damn good position coming into this offseason. I doubt you or anyone else would be complaining about the "plan" had we landed Suter and Parise, or even just Suter.

Thing is, if you don't know beforeheand how everything will work out, you can't make a plan to account for every contingency. Any plan, or set of plans, can still fail. Especially when the rules are designed against you, and 29 other teams competing against you. Some things are just out of your control. Maybe if he'd known beforehand that none of Ehrhoff, Bieksa, Pitkanen, or Wisniewski would actually make it to free agency he would have been willing to trade for their rights. But on the other hand, maybe he'd have done that and not have been able to sign them anyway, wasting a pick. Or maybe had we signed one, we wouldn't have signed White or traded for Quincey, leaving us still in a very similar situation. Maybe we trade Flip, Smith, and a 1st for Burns...and don't sign White, and without Jurco and Ouellet in the system we don't give up a 1st for Quincey, then Burns doesn't re-sign and our defense now is Kronwall, Ericsson, and Kindl. Or maybe we do add one of them and everything works out great. Point is, having plans doesn't mean they will work.

Furthermore, you're ignoring what he has done, acting like his failure to make a move to your satisfaction is the same as not doing anything at all. He re-signed Kronwall and Ericsson. Added White and Quincey. Held on to Smith when he might easily have traded him. Avoided "just because" cap spending so we'd be in position to go after Suter, and would have been even without the big cap increase and/or if Nick had decided to play another season. Suter was a good plan. Unfortunately, it didn't work. Life goes on. Off-season isn't even over yet, nor do we know yet how the team will come together or how the younger guys will perform. For that matter, I still don't see what's so catastrophic about maybe having a down year or two. Philly went from 95-100+ point seasons to a league worst 56 (worst record since the lockout), right back to 95-100+ and playing in the finals a few years later.

I thinkk less people would be complaining if Holland had attempted to address team needs for the last three years. He thought Nick was coming back & was caught with his pants down. Who's head is in the sand? Howard will be lit up this year. We are not uniquely strong on D & we don't have the O to hang onto the puck like we used to. We don't suck. We are on par with Calgary. Are they good?

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The defence has been totally revamped in a matter of 3 years. This is a transition period. Holland at some point will spend up to the cap and a true #1 Dman will be on the team. There is reason to have a lot of optimism with this team, Holland is not going to hit the cap without seriously addressing all the teams issues.

I don't think you could consider Holland failing until he has all his salary spent and not a stanley cup contending team

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My point exactly. I want to see how he does post Lidstrom and without a good defense in front of him. He's proven he can be steady when he's got the best defenseman in the game in front of him but lets be honest what goaltender wouldn't look better with Lidstrom on the team. Not to mention Stuart who is much better than Kronwall in my opinion. I don't expect Howard will be awful, but I'm guessing his numbers will drop.

Howard has been more than steady. And Kronwall was much better than Stuart last season. Stuart was a loss, but he wasn't the same defenseman we saw in 2008 and 2009. Maybe his personal situation was catching up with him.

The good news is now the Wings (hopefully) have a steady backup who can give Howard some breaks throughout the season. Last year he got run into the ground until his injuries started because they needed the wins and couldn't count on anyone else in net.

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I've never really understood the rationale behind this "so and so goalie hasn't proven anything because he plays for a good team" argument. According to that logic Brodeur, Hasek, Sawchuk, and Roy ought to be in the same category as Osgood, and Curtis Joseph or Ed Belfour should be considered the greatest goalie that ever lived.

Also, if Howard's a bum for having the seventh best defense in front of him last year, then are Elliot, Quick, and Lundqvist bums for backstopping the first, second, and third best defenses?

Edit: Actually, why stop there? If the only individual accomplishments that count are the ones made on terrible teams, then you'd have to say Rick Nash or John Tavares are the best forwards in the NHL today, and Carey Price is the NHL's top goalie.

Edited by kipwinger

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I thinkk less people would be complaining if Holland had attempted to address team needs for the last three years. He thought Nick was coming back & was caught with his pants down. Who's head is in the sand? Howard will be lit up this year. We are not uniquely strong on D & we don't have the O to hang onto the puck like we used to. We don't suck. We are on par with Calgary. Are they good?

Re-read the post you quoted for my response.

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I've never really understood the rationale behind this "so and so goalie hasn't proven anything because he plays for a good team" argument. According to that logic Brodeur, Hasek, Sawchuk, and Roy ought to be in the same category as Osgood, and Curtis Joseph or Ed Belfour should be considered the greatest goalie that ever lived.

Also, if Howard's a bum for having the seventh best defense in front of him last year, then are Elliot, Quick, and Lundqvist bums for backstopping the first, second, and third best defenses?

Edit: Actually, why stop there? If the only individual accomplishments that count are the ones made on terrible teams, then you'd have to say Rick Nash or John Tavares are the best forwards in the NHL today, and Carey Price is the NHL's top goalie.

Their defense was ranked that high because they were the ones playing out of their minds. Just take a look at the playoffs... Jonathan Quick stole several games even though his defense wasn't playing that well. Nobody is saying Howard is bad, just that he's not elite like a lot of people try and say he is. His numbers don't compare to goaltenders who are considered elite and are in the Vezina conversation.

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Their defense was ranked that high because they were the ones playing out of their minds. Just take a look at the playoffs... Jonathan Quick stole several games even though his defense wasn't playing that well. Nobody is saying Howard is bad, just that he's not elite like a lot of people try and say he is. His numbers don't compare to goaltenders who are considered elite and are in the Vezina conversation.

Like who? Backstrom and Harding?

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Like who? Backstrom and Harding?

:hysterical:

anyway...centcouger (new account?)

I think Detroit is still a desirable place for UFA's or nobody would ever come here...ever. There has been plenty of UFA's pass on Detroit throughout the last 20 years, has it made Detroit any less dominant? No, and the fact that Mary Kate and Ashley chose to play close to family (for more money too mind you) does not mean Detroit is not a destination desired by most NHL players. It is only the situation that are in and looking for that leads them to where they go.

Ask yourself this if Detroit was such a horrible destination, why is it when players are asked to submit a list of 5 or 6 teams they would waive their NTC/NMC for 95% of the time (if not 100%) Detroit is on their list...Seems to me I rarely see the likes of Minnesota or St. Louis on anyone's list... Sometimes, more cash and family are things that another city cannot compete with...I am good with that, and can understand.

I have pride in the fact that, when a UFA does sign here, he RARELY goes anywhere else after, unless it is for one of those reason's, family or just looking to cash in. The ONLY reason Hossa isn't here for 12 years rather than Chicago is the fact that Holland chose Franzine and wasn't sure what Hudler was going to do re-sign or explore RFA, he chose Russia instead and Hossa had already gone due to cap space or lack there of...One mistake Holland will not admit to making.

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We will see what Howard is this year. I say less than 30 wins. But we ought to at least give him a chance in the post #5 era.

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We will see what Howard is this year. I say less than 30 wins. But we ought to at least give him a chance in the post #5 era.

hahahahhahaha wanna know how i know u dont watch hockey?

Columbus was the only team who didnt get 30 wins last year....COLUMBUS

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