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Holland losing his moxie? Is Detroit slipping as UFA destination?

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You know what bugs me? This mentality that Holland is, essentially, infallible, and that anyone who criticizes him and/or the Wings at large is smoking crack, or spoiled, or insane, etc. I like Holland as much as the next guy. No, really, I do. But, objectively? We're in a hole. A big one. And if there's anyone to blame, it's Holland. Now, in saying that, am I calling for Holland's head? No. Am I saying the sky is falling? No. Am I "hating" this team and being a "fairweather fan"? No. Am I disregarding his career accomplishments? No. Am I saying he's anything less than the best GM in the league? No. I'm saying he has s*** the bed, and it bothers me. One of the main reasons why it bothers me is that I do like Holland as much as the next guy, and I do respect and appreciate him and the work he has done (and does on a mostly daily basis). So, for me to look at where things are now and try to reconcile that with "Best GM Ever, Man With The Plan"...it's troubling. I'm all for cutting him slack, and believing in a Master Plan which subsumes all of these smaller "failures." But at the same time - GMing 101, man! We've had trouble scoring in the postseason for how long? Our bottom-6 has been too small and short on secondary scoring threats for how long? Our D - everyone knew Stuart would be leaving and that Nick would be gone any offseason now, very possibly even this offseason. So where are the moves? Where are the steps taken to rectify, or at least seriously address, (or hell, even just acknowledge), these problems? Why is Kyle Quincey our one new-blood on the back end? Why is Ian White our #2 defenseman? Why is our top-6 literally all "skilled" Euros, when our whole problem with scoring in the postseason is we're easily pushed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone (as we've seen happen in the postseason about 90 times)? The top-6 is a real sore point for me. We need new ingredients in the top-6, new dimensions, new looks we can throw, new ways we can hurt. What we've added this offseason is a retread who may not even be a regular in the top-6, a guy who's never played a single game in the NHL, and Nyquist. And we're calling it a Youth Movement - when, in fact, it's really more of a "s***, what else can we do?" indirect admission of failure. Holland is great largely because he's always found a way to keep us from falling into exactly this sort of black hole of "necessary mediocrity" (i.e. having only 2-3 trade assets, losing luster as a FA destination, etc.) What do we do if we lose three key players to injury and they're out all at the same time? We realize this forward "depth" people keep bragging about is really more a matter of quantity than one of quality.

Ugh.

You know what bugs me? People who say we've s*** the bed and were in a "big hole" before they've even seen this team take the ice. Not saying Holland is infallible, just saying we should reserve judgement till Holland and this team have a chance to show what they're made of. I trust that Holland knows what he's doing better than you and I do....hence why he has an office in the best front office in all of hockey and we're in our armchairs.....I'll join the doom n gloomers like yourself when the ship ACTUALLY sinks....till then I'll wait and hope for the best come fall.

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Guest The Axe

Im fine with accepting not being able to get parise and suter if our offer was 10 mil per 12 years for both those guys and the Wild went to 10.5. Then I'd believe it wasnt a money thing and those guys just didnt want to play in Detroit. However, considering we dumped 10 mil plus into Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Tootoo, Gustavson, and Quincey = 5 NON-impact players, instead of making that money available for impact players, I firmly believe Holland doesnt know what he's doing.

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Im fine with accepting not being able to get parise and suter if our offer was 10 mil per 12 years for both those guys and the Wild went to 10.5. Then I'd believe it wasnt a money thing and those guys just didnt want to play in Detroit. However, considering we dumped 10 mil plus into Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Tootoo, Gustavson, and Quincey = 5 NON-impact players, instead of making that money available for impact players, I firmly believe Holland doesnt know what he's doing.

Like who?

Edited by Carman

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I don't think money was the issue, they picked Minnesota. Not for money, but because they wanted to play at "home".

Dude, we should have offered 150 mil 20 year contracts to Suter and Parise, and should have offer sheeted Weber 500 mil over 50 years. That's how you make a splash in FA!

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I trust that Holland knows what he's doing better than you and I do....hence why he has an office in the best front office in all of hockey and we're in our armchairs.....

Another one of my favorite ridiculous retorts these threads get. Like we all applied for Holland's job and he beat us out. :lol:

esteef

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I forgot you can tell the future.....for all you know Brunner is the real deal and Smith is the next coming.

And as for Lidstrom comments....yeah we lost Lidstrom....we dont have a Lidstrom anymore, BUT NIETHER DOES ANY OTHER TEAM. We have just as much of a chance to win the cup as any other premier team. for pete sake LA was an 8 seed and NJ was a 6. get real anything can happen int he playoffs.

I'm not claiming that Brunner and Smith will not play well. But i'm also not claiming that Smith will win the calder and step in and score 20 goals like some people around here are. I happen to think Smith will see allot of ice time, but he's going to make allot of mistakes. Thats part of the development. Brunner, I have no clue what to expect. I'm just not comfortable with placing allot of expectations on these two. These types of players aren't going to make huge impacts in our lineup this year. I think its unfair to expect that at this point. Reallisticly speaking, if we had dropped Lidstrom and Stuart from our lineup for any extended period of time we would have been in big trouble last year. I realize its hard for some to grasp but this is going to be one of the weakest rosters we have seen as redwings fans for a long time.

As far as the Kings winning the cup, sure almost any team that gets in can get hot and win. But the Kings weren't a bunch of nobodies that shocked the world. They were a club with a ton of talent that under achieved most of the year. With the subtractions that came this offseason, i'm not sure I feel comfortable calling the wings a premier club right now.

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Another one of my favorite ridiculous retorts these threads get. Like we all applied for Holland's job and he beat us out. :lol:

esteef

yet we all know it's our dream job, excluding playing for the wings

Not like any of us actually have any real hockey business experience anyway....unless your counting capgeek

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Guest The Axe

Good call number9. Armchair quarterbacking is letsgowings at its finest. Holland cant do what we can do.

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yet we all know it's our dream job, excluding playing for the wings

Not like any of us actually have any real hockey business experience anyway....unless your counting capgeek

If he would only listen to us we would win the Cup every year!

esteef

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i remember before the 96-97 season wondering if I'd ever be privileged to see the red wings lift the cup and I've seen it done now 4 times.

in all likelihood everyone on this board has been alive for one of those cups or has watched a team that is perennially competitive and playoff bound.

there are people in toronto who love their team just as much as you do. imagine yourself talking hockey with one of those people and imagine the outcome. just for one minute.

I'm a spoiled hockey fan and i approve this message.

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You know what bugs me? This mentality that Holland is, essentially, infallible, and that anyone who criticizes him and/or the Wings at large is smoking crack, or spoiled, or insane, etc. I like Holland as much as the next guy. No, really, I do. But, objectively? We're in a hole. A big one. And if there's anyone to blame, it's Holland. Now, in saying that, am I calling for Holland's head? No. Am I saying the sky is falling? No. Am I "hating" this team and being a "fairweather fan"? No. Am I disregarding his career accomplishments? No. Am I saying he's anything less than the best GM in the league? No. I'm saying he has s*** the bed, and it bothers me. One of the main reasons why it bothers me is that I do like Holland as much as the next guy, and I do respect and appreciate him and the work he has done (and does on a mostly daily basis). So, for me to look at where things are now and try to reconcile that with "Best GM Ever, Man With The Plan"...it's troubling. I'm all for cutting him slack, and believing in a Master Plan which subsumes all of these smaller "failures." But at the same time - GMing 101, man! We've had trouble scoring in the postseason for how long? Our bottom-6 has been too small and short on secondary scoring threats for how long? Our D - everyone knew Stuart would be leaving and that Nick would be gone any offseason now, very possibly even this offseason. So where are the moves? Where are the steps taken to rectify, or at least seriously address, (or hell, even just acknowledge), these problems? Why is Kyle Quincey our one new-blood on the back end? Why is Ian White our #2 defenseman? Why is our top-6 literally all "skilled" Euros, when our whole problem with scoring in the postseason is we're easily pushed out to the perimeter in the offensive zone (as we've seen happen in the postseason about 90 times)? The top-6 is a real sore point for me. We need new ingredients in the top-6, new dimensions, new looks we can throw, new ways we can hurt. What we've added this offseason is a retread who may not even be a regular in the top-6, a guy who's never played a single game in the NHL, and Nyquist. And we're calling it a Youth Movement - when, in fact, it's really more of a "s***, what else can we do?" indirect admission of failure. Holland is great largely because he's always found a way to keep us from falling into exactly this sort of black hole of "necessary mediocrity" (i.e. having only 2-3 trade assets, losing luster as a FA destination, etc.) What do we do if we lose three key players to injury and they're out all at the same time? We realize this forward "depth" people keep bragging about is really more a matter of quantity than one of quality.

Ugh.

It bugs me that people are being negative about our team already and we haven't even hit the ice yet. I think our team is borderline but who knows really? And all this hostility towards Holland I dont think he's the greatest GM ever. Who is the greatest GM ever? Ken Holland is the Detroit Red Wings GM OUR GM and yes he's going to take all the abuse whether people like him or not. I understand that. What I don't understand this offseason is some fans but ok. Nothing against all the gloom and doom but lets's see how this season goes. I'm actually excited to see what unfolds, if we suck we suck ok. But if we are good. Uh-oh look out. Table could swing either way for us Wings and fans.

p.s. offseason isn't over yet either

but I'm not keeping my fingers crossed for a big trade or anything :P

Edited by St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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Guest The Axe

Im getting more excited to see Smith, Kindl, and Brunner. These guys are the guys that will make or break us.

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Howard? premier #1 goaltender

Kronwall? top 2 D-man

Filppula? top 6 forward

Hudler? top 6 forward

Quincey? top 4 D-man

plz keep ur crack smoking in Minnesota

Howard? Overrated. Let's see how he does with a porous defense where he might actually face a few shots.

Kronwall? Second pairing defenseman on a good team.

Filppula? Third liner. Guess how many times he's scored over 40 points? Once, last year. He has one good year and suddenly he's top 6 material? I don't think so.

Hudler? He's another third liner. Top 6 if he's playing with a good center maybe. Doesn't matter though, he walked.

Quincey? He's never scored more than 38 points in a season and has been a plus player only one time. He's a second or third pairing guy.

I think you're reaching A LOT here. None of these players are elite. Howard is the closest thing to it and even he can be pretty suspect at times.

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Guest Crymson

I think you're reaching A LOT here.

Knowing why you're here, exactly how much stock should we place in your level of objectivity? I'll answer for you: zero.

If not for the fact that I'd get into trouble for doing so, I'd tell you exactly what I think of your utterly puerile antics here.

You know what bugs me? This mentality that Holland is, essentially, infallible, and that anyone who criticizes him and/or the Wings at large is smoking crack, or spoiled, or insane, etc.

And it bothers me to see, from anyone whose rebukes of Holland are criticized, the well-used line you're now giving us.

It's especially without substance (and very rich) coming from you, being that you declared yourself "done" (here) with these forums and with the Wings at the 2008 trade deadline because you felt that Holland had blown the season by not making bigger moves. In the event, the Wings won the Cup less than four months afterward.

EDIT: I don't mean to insult you by bringing this up; I'm only trying to prove a point.

Edited by Crymson

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Howard? Overrated. Let's see how he does with a porous defense where he might actually face a few shots.

Kronwall? Second pairing defenseman on a good team.

Filppula? Third liner. Guess how many times he's scored over 40 points? Once, last year. He has one good year and suddenly he's top 6 material? I don't think so.

Hudler? He's another third liner. Top 6 if he's playing with a good center maybe. Doesn't matter though, he walked.

Quincey? He's never scored more than 38 points in a season and has been a plus player only one time. He's a second or third pairing guy.

I think you're reaching A LOT here. None of these players are elite. Howard is the closest thing to it and even he can be pretty suspect at times.

Howard is better than Backstrom in every conceivable way 2/3 past seasons. top 6 in GAA/SV% his first year, and 6th in SV% and 3rd in GAA in goalies playing 50 games. If anything he's underrated considering people still want to grant the Wings are an elite defensive club, when they led the lead in playoffs in odd man rushes against(22 to 4 in the series).

What good team's are you referring to? LA? Well Kronwall put up 5 more goals and had the same points as the 7 million dollar top pairing guy 24 minute guy for the Stanley Cup winning team. To put it in perspective Kronwall was 4th in the entire league in goals for defenseman, all while bring very good skating/puck moving ability and a dominate physical edge which the likes of other top defenseman wanes.

And yes throw out Filpulla's best year where he matched Patrick Kane, beat Couture, Bergeron, Getzlaf, Stastsny, Plekanec, Lecavalier, Staal. Even if he regresses back to 40 points he'd still be will with in the top 50 in centers, all while giving you very good defensive presence. Not to mention the fact that he started playing 2 minutes more a game last year, and gained close to 50 more minutes of powerplay time compared to the year before, no that couldn't help him produce more points at all you are right,

Hudler, 50 point guy, puts him in the top 100 for forwards, which is easily fits him into the top 6. More points than Ladd, J.Staal, Doan, Simmonds, Kesler, Lecavlier, Voracek, Breire, Smyth, Clower, Skinner, which are pretty clear top 6 forward.

Quincey I'll give you the question is still out, however he has proved that he can put up a .7 ppg throughout a season before, which would put him easily in the top 10 for defenseman. As it stands with his 26 points, he's still in the top 60 that puts him as a top 4, albeit a bottom tier one.

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Guest The Axe

Howard will struggle this year if things stay the same. If you cant see that coming, youre high.

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Howard will struggle this year if things stay the same. If you cant see that coming, youre high.

Nope, I have yet to hit the bong today, but I will heartily disagree with you , Howard's proved himself to be a top 10 goalie in this league, and that's supported by the last 3 years of his play. We have not been a strong defensive club in the last couple seasons, yet his career numbers are well within the realm of "very good?" just for example here are some goalies that have been commonly labeled as elite the past few seasons , .917 and 2.41 respectively for Howard. Miller .915, 2.57, Price .916 2.56, Kiprusoff .914 2.45, Backstrom .918, 2.42, Luongo .919, 2.52, Fleury .909, 2.68, Ward .910, 2.74.

Just because you do not want to believe facts and projections don't mean they don't exist. He may not be Lundqviust(Who in my opinion has separated himself over this current generation after Brodeur), or Quick(yet) doesn't mean he's going to hurt us as a goaltender, he's a strength for our team and continues to improve year in year out.

Maybe the Wing's will stop being so aggressive offensively and stop giving up odd man rushes? We were caught pinching, with no forward high in the zone so many times last season and Howard still had a Vezina nomination type season especially before his injury.

Edited by Carman

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This thread is getting off topic and personal attacks are rearing their ugly heads. Please keep it on topic and stay above board on the personal stuff. That only makes YOU look insecure.

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we have lost no luster and still are one of the most hated franchises in sports.....hate comes from envy.

a lot of you armchairs would have been shotgunning Strohs and doing swan dives off the Amassador if u were around during the cup 'drought' .

the new england patriots and detroit red wings suck.

Rome is falling.

get a grip folks...regardless of the outcome of this coming season, ..i for one cant wait for all the thread 'bumps' once the season gets under way:)

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Howard? Overrated. Let's see how he does with a porous defense where he might actually face a few shots.

Kronwall? Second pairing defenseman on a good team.

Filppula? Third liner. Guess how many times he's scored over 40 points? Once, last year. He has one good year and suddenly he's top 6 material? I don't think so.

Hudler? He's another third liner. Top 6 if he's playing with a good center maybe. Doesn't matter though, he walked.

Quincey? He's never scored more than 38 points in a season and has been a plus player only one time. He's a second or third pairing guy.

I think you're reaching A LOT here. None of these players are elite. Howard is the closest thing to it and even he can be pretty suspect at times.

Wow champ...hard to believe you even PRETENDED to be a Wings fan. Oh wait, first and foremost you're a "fan of hockey"....whatever.

1-Howard was a Vezina frontrunner last year when the Wings were in 1st place before his injury and he played great in the playoffs.

2-Kronwall's points are fairly equivalent to the likes of Weber and Chara over the past 4-5 years and are better than your beloved Suter's if i'm not mistaken

3-Filppula IS a top 6 forward and 66 points that would lead the Wild last season BY 13 POINTS proves that fact. And that's his 1st year in the top 6 after he paid his dues

4-f*** Hudler in his face. he wasn't re-signed cause he's very replacable.

5-38 points on D is not 3rd pairing....give your head a shake. As much as i was disturbed by Q's play when he came back to the Wings last year, he's still a top 4 dman.

Take your constant Red Wing bashing back down the street to LETS GO WILD where you post about how great your team is even though they still have less depth than the Wings team you apparently love bashing so much.

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