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Ryan trade is a must!

trade bobby ryan red wings holland semin

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#1 DatSuhK

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:50 PM

Red Wings need a solid right hand shot on the first line to play with datsyuk. Trade Franzen, Nyquist, and draft picks.

#2 MabusIncarnate

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:53 PM

Thread topic searches are a must!

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#3 Crymson

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:30 PM

You're operating on one massive assumption: that Anaheim is willing to trade him. This appears to be untrue. More, you--like many others--are vastly overvaluing Ryan. Like Franzen, he is streaky and sometimes does not show up to compete.

#4 Salviaman

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:41 PM

Not going to happen
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#5 ShanahanMan

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:44 PM

As Crymson said, Anaheim's GM has come out and said, amidst all the Ryan talk, that they have no intentions of moving him.

Besides, a top pair defenseman is of more priority now.


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#6 Zonly1

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:07 AM

The Wings roster is set. Kenny is happy.

#7 FlashyG

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:43 AM

trading a large package like that for Ryan creates more holes than it fills.

We'd need another top 6 forward after the trade to replace Franzen. Then we'd need to address our biggest need, Defence, and we'd have to do it with very few tradeable assets.

#8 The Axe

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:58 AM

Why does anyone think another team is eyeballing Franzen? Hes a Datsyuk/ Zetterberg by-product. Every Hockey person knows this. If Datsyuks hot, then Franzens hot. Simple. No trade value whatsoever.
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#9 FlashyG

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:07 AM

Why does anyone think another team is eyeballing Franzen? Hes a Datsyuk/ Zetterberg by-product. Every Hockey person knows this. If Datsyuks hot, then Franzens hot. Simple. No trade value whatsoever.


Are you kidding? Franzen is easily the one of if not the best piece of trade bait the Wings have. The only drawback against him is the length of his contract, but considering his production vs his cap hit he's among the best valued players in the league.

Who cares if he needs a set-up man to produce, he's not paid to be a superstar, he's paid to do exactly what he does every season. Put up around 30 goals and produce around 50-60 pts.

What exactly do Franzens critics expect of him? 40-50 goals? If so he should be making a lot more than 3.95 million a season.

#10 Carman

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:27 AM

What exactly do Franzens critics expect of him? 40-50 goals? If so he should be making a lot more than 3.95 million a season.


But he plays with Datsyuk! He wouldn't be good otherwise. datsyuk can make a 5 goal player are 30 goal player duh
__________________________________________________________________________________

In other thread, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are old no one would want to come to detroit to play with them.

I love the contradictions.

#11 shorthanded

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:24 PM

Are you kidding? Franzen is easily the one of if not the best piece of trade bait the Wings have. The only drawback against him is the length of his contract, but considering his production vs his cap hit he's among the best valued players in the league.

Who cares if he needs a set-up man to produce, he's not paid to be a superstar, he's paid to do exactly what he does every season. Put up around 30 goals and produce around 50-60 pts.

What exactly do Franzens critics expect of him? 40-50 goals? If so he should be making a lot more than 3.95 million a season.


But. He shies away from contact. Opponents know this and are going after him more and more. Ergo, his production continues to decline and because he stays out of the corners the Wings are easier to defend when Franzen is out there.

#12 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:26 PM

Are you kidding? Franzen is easily the one of if not the best piece of trade bait the Wings have. The only drawback against him is the length of his contract, but considering his production vs his cap hit he's among the best valued players in the league.

Who cares if he needs a set-up man to produce, he's not paid to be a superstar, he's paid to do exactly what he does every season. Put up around 30 goals and produce around 50-60 pts.

What exactly do Franzens critics expect of him? 40-50 goals? If so he should be making a lot more than 3.95 million a season.

It's been stated several times what Franzen's critics would like from him. Sure 40-50 goals would be great, but I'd settle for a more consistent effort on the ice. When Zetterberg isn't scoring you can still see how hard he's working out there. Trying to get his shots, backchecking, carrying the puck in the high traffic areas.

At his worst Franzen is content to float around, not using his considerable size, and just wing the puck at the net from low-percentage areas.

#13 mjtm77

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:47 PM

Are you kidding? Franzen is easily the one of if not the best piece of trade bait the Wings have. The only drawback against him is the length of his contract, but considering his production vs his cap hit he's among the best valued players in the league.

Who cares if he needs a set-up man to produce, he's not paid to be a superstar, he's paid to do exactly what he does every season. Put up around 30 goals and produce around 50-60 pts.

What exactly do Franzens critics expect of him? 40-50 goals? If so he should be making a lot more than 3.95 million a season.


Thats his cap hit

The fact is he is makeing 5.250 million. That is why we expect more of him
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#14 FlashyG

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:51 PM

It's been stated several times what Franzen's critics would like from him. Sure 40-50 goals would be great, but I'd settle for a more consistent effort on the ice. When Zetterberg isn't scoring you can still see how hard he's working out there. Trying to get his shots, backchecking, carrying the puck in the high traffic areas.

At his worst Franzen is content to float around, not using his considerable size, and just wing the puck at the net from low-percentage areas.


You are comparing a 7 million dollar superstar vs a 50-60 pt top 6 forward. Franzen led the team in goals, +/- and was 2nd in SOG with a cap hit just over half what Zetterberg makes. You seem to be focusing more on what you perceive he can do better, rather than being happy with what he already does well.

I'll concede he didn't use his size as well this past season, but other than that his play has been the same since he came into the league. Most goal scorers are streaky, the ones who aren't get paid almost double what Franzen does.

But. He shies away from contact. Opponents know this and are going after him more and more. Ergo, his production continues to decline and because he stays out of the corners the Wings are easier to defend when Franzen is out there.


Franzen's production hasn't declined though, he was 3 pts and 5 goals away from his career highs last year. He's actually been one of the more consistent Wings during his career, and his style of play has never been centered around playing in the corners. He's a goal scorer, you don't score them from the corners. (Unless you have a bank shot mastered like Zetterberg seems to have)

If Franzen made the Wings easier to defend he wouldn't lead the team in goals. You could just as easily make the case that the Wings are easier to defend because teams know Datsyuk will look to pass rather than shoot. I personally don't think the problem with our top 6 is any one player, its that we only have 4 that are legitimate top 6 players. If you put another good scorer on a line with Franzen and Datsyuk, the complaints about Franzen would likely disappear completely.

Thats his cap hit

The fact is he is makeing 5.250 million. That is why we expect more of him


Why? are you paying him? The only thing that should matter from a fans perspective is his cap hit as its the only thing that effects the quality of the team.

Edited by FlashyG, 02 August 2012 - 01:52 PM.


#15 Carman

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:55 PM

It's been stated several times what Franzen's critics would like from him. Sure 40-50 goals would be great, but I'd settle for a more consistent effort on the ice. When Zetterberg isn't scoring you can still see how hard he's working out there. Trying to get his shots, backchecking, carrying the puck in the high traffic areas.

At his worst Franzen is content to float around, not using his considerable size, and just wing the puck at the net from low-percentage areas.


Agreed, it would be nice to have that all around winger, that's why I was sad to see Hossa go. But honestly if you look around the league wingers are a lot like Franzen, the top tier two way wingers are incredibly rare. Out of the top 30 goal wingers the player you are asking for are Parise, Hossa, Iginla, Couture, Clarkson, Giroux, Callahan . These are the wingers that don't take shifts off that I've seen.

Ryan, Nash, Gaborik, Neal, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Sharp, Eberle, Moulson, Perry, Kessel, Neal, Pavelski, Sedin, Marleau, and Pominville all have had the lazy tag put on them at some point,

And if you think Franzen takes bad percentage shots, you should take a look at Perry, Kessel or Nash who both take 100+ more shots and less shooting%, I don't think Franzen is so bad, if anything I want him taking more shots.

I agree I'd like to see a more consistent effort from Franzen, but I guess I'm just saying get used to it, it's far more common to have an incosistent winger than a dynamite two way one. Work with what you have, the grass isn't always greener. I do miss Hossa, that's one that I hold against kenny.

#16 kipwinger

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:59 PM

You are comparing a 7 million dollar superstar vs a 50-60 pt top 6 forward. Franzen led the team in goals, +/- and was 2nd in SOG with a cap hit just over half what Zetterberg makes. You seem to be focusing more on what you perceive he can do better, rather than being happy with what he already does well.

I'll concede he didn't use his size as well this past season, but other than that his play has been the same since he came into the league. Most goal scorers are streaky, the ones who aren't get paid almost double what Franzen does.



Franzen's production hasn't declined though, he was 3 pts and 5 goals away from his career highs last year. He's actually been one of the more consistent Wings during his career, and his style of play has never been centered around playing in the corners. He's a goal scorer, you don't score them from the corners. (Unless you have a bank shot mastered like Zetterberg seems to have)

If Franzen made the Wings easier to defend he wouldn't lead the team in goals. You could just as easily make the case that the Wings are easier to defend because teams know Datsyuk will look to pass rather than shoot. I personally don't think the problem with our top 6 is any one player, its that we only have 4 that are legitimate top 6 players. If you put another good scorer on a line with Franzen and Datsyuk, the complaints about Franzen would likely disappear completely.



Why? are you paying him? The only thing that should matter from a fans perspective is his cap hit as its the only thing that effects the quality of the team.


Good post, I don't agree with every point you made, but I agree with most of them.

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#17 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 02:18 PM

You are comparing a 7 million dollar superstar vs a 50-60 pt top 6 forward. Franzen led the team in goals, +/- and was 2nd in SOG making just over half what Zetterberg makes. You seem to be focusing more on what you perceive he can do better, rather than being happy with what he already does well.

I'll concede he didn't use his size as well this past season, but other than that his play has been the same since he came into the league. Most goal scorers are streaky, the ones who aren't get paid almost double what Franzen does.

Of course I'm focusing on what he can do better. Isn't that the point? It's not like I'm asking him to be more talented. I don't fault Helm for his lack of finishing skills. It is what it is. But work ethic or "compete level" is something attainable to every player no matter their talent level.

I mentioned Zetterberg to try and make clear it's not about the goal scoring, it's about effort. Even when Zetterberg isn't scoring he's working hard and has value. When Franzen isn't scoring, he's not doing much other than carving up the ice surface. I could pick plenty of lower paid players on the team that work a lot harder than Mule does.

And I don't understand why the difference in cap hit makes a lack of consistent effort and failure to use his size okay. Because Holland circumvented the cap and structured a good deal, it's okay that Franzen half-asses it sometimes? Isn't that why people were ripping on Semin (even before he signed for $7 mill)?

Plus Franzen was paid $5.25 million last season. His cap hit is lower because of his ridiculously long contract. It's not really apples to apples to compare his cap hit to other goal scorers in the league with shorter term contracts. If we want to play the contract game, Toews was paid $6 million last season, scored the same number of goals as Franzen in 18 fewer games, had one more point, and is also the #1 PK forward on his team. So for $750k more, wouldn't you like a guy who busted his ass every night and is the leading PK guy on the team?

Im not saying the Wings should get Toews or a trade or anything like that. Just trying to make the point that lack of effort shouldn't be acceptable no matter what you're paid, and Franzen is a bargain because of his cap hit and contract structure. But that shouldn't excuse his play.

Agreed, it would be nice to have that all around winger, that's why I was sad to see Hossa go. But honestly if you look around the league wingers are a lot like Franzen, the top tier two way wingers are incredibly rare. Out of the top 30 goal wingers the player you are asking for are Parise, Hossa, Iginla, Couture, Clarkson, Giroux, Callahan . These are the wingers that don't take shifts off that I've seen.

Ryan, Nash, Gaborik, Neal, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Sharp, Eberle, Moulson, Perry, Kessel, Neal, Pavelski, Sedin, Marleau, and Pominville all have had the lazy tag put on them at some point,

And if you think Franzen takes bad percentage shots, you should take a look at Perry, Kessel or Nash who both take 100+ more shots and less shooting%, I don't think Franzen is so bad, if anything I want him taking more shots.

I agree I'd like to see a more consistent effort from Franzen, but I guess I'm just saying get used to it, it's far more common to have an incosistent winger than a dynamite two way one. Work with what you have, the grass isn't always greener. I do miss Hossa, that's one that I hold against kenny.

The difference is that Mule started as a two way player. It's not like it's outside his skillset or is something he's never done. And on that list of players you mention, most have put up a helluva lot more goals than Franzen does.

Normally I think people are exaggerating when they talk about a player coasting after getting a long term contract, but Franzen reinforces the stereotype. He's won a Cup, he's got guaranteed money through 2020. He seems content and it shows on the ice.

#18 esteef

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 02:18 PM

Saying Franzen led the Wings in scoring isn't really saying much. I mean who was his competition, Hudler?

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#19 St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 02:21 PM

Ryan trade for us is pipedream. Sorry.

#20 Carman

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 02:28 PM

Saying Franzen led the Wings in scoring isn't really saying much. I mean who was his competition, Hudler?

esteef


He would have lead the Kings, tied on Boston, and was1 goal behind D. Sedin on Vancouver. Pretty good teams, no?





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