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[Retired] Official Lockout Thread

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That's much easier to accomplish on the NHL's side than the PA's. The League only has to control the 30 owners, plus a few staff who might be "in the know". Which is even easier with the threat of a $250,000 fine for speaking out of place.

The fact that the NHLPA is made up of around 700 players and then their own internal staff, a leak such as this becomes much more likely. It would be all but impossible to tell where the leak came from, if it were sent anonymously.

LeBrun is reporting that the first meeting (of several today) has wrapped up. Talks to resume at 2pmET.

That's what I wondered. It could very easily be an intentional PR leak. But it could also be a former player like Aaron Ward talking to one of his buddies.

And Bettman can actually fine teams up to a million dollars. He just hit the Wings with $250k for Devallano's comments.

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Michael Russo@Russostrib

Sources: #NHL perplexed #NHLPA did not inform players they are willing to go 50/50 and "Make Whole" every cent + interest by Year 3

if this is true, and fehr is holding back information, this could get ugly really quick. could also just be nhl propaganda to try to weaken the union.

and this was a response by one of the players to that tweet

Krys Barch@krysbarch

@Russostrib can u please explain further?

talk about being uninformed lol

Edited by chances14

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here's russo's blog regarding the tweet

http://www.startribu.../178216921.html

I'm told one of the NHLPA's demands that the league is not willing to do is pay 100% of the salaries this season no matter how many games are played

sure hope that's not true or else we can kiss the season goodbye. no way the owners agree to that.

Edited by chances14

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I have a really bad feeling now. All I have been hearing about is Fehr withholding information from Union, but I don't think that's true....not the problem. Information was left out of memo due to knowing it woudl be leaked, didn't want full details in there....that's all fine, but my issue is that Bettman is now trying to put a wedge between Fehr and the players. To me, this means talks aren't going well and this certainly isn't going to make them go any better.

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I have a really bad feeling now. All I have been hearing about is Fehr withholding information from Union, but I don't think that's true....not the problem. Information was left out of memo due to knowing it woudl be leaked, didn't want full details in there....that's all fine, but my issue is that Bettman is now trying to put a wedge between Fehr and the players. To me, this means talks aren't going well and this certainly isn't going to make them go any better.

You don't believe that Fehr is withholding information, but you do believe that Bettman is now trying to put a wedge between Fehr and the players? I believe its a bit of both going on. If Fehr was communicating well, the players would be on the same page. Right now, some players are either out of the loop or there is confusion. I will say that Fehr's group is much bigger, but the players shouldn't be tweeting that they want clarification.

At the same time though, both Bettman and Fehr are bargaining with their sides in mind. I don't think that either side is really communicating with their respective sides in the detail that they need to. Still, its the majority that need to be addressed.

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lebrun on today's meetings

Sources on both sides confirmed to ESPN.com that the league’s Make Whole offer -- an attempt to honor players’ existing contracts -- amounts to $211 million of guaranteed money ($149 million in Year 1 and $62 million in Year 2, both deferred in payment by one year and payable with interest). The league’s belief is that by Year 3 of the deal, revenues will have likely grown enough that at 50 percent of HRR the players shouldn’t face much if any salary erosion in escrow. At which one NHLPA source countered, what if the revenues don’t grow that much? Then what? The union says in that case players aren’t made whole on their contracts

Listen, the league’ $211-million Make Whole offer is not anything to sniff at, it’s a tangible move on the league’s part. But it’s still nowhere close to where the NHLPA would be willing to sign off on. Try about $600 million or so. That might do it.

so wait. every pa proposal has been based on projected revenue growth, but when nhl makes a growth proposal, it's seen as nothing by the pa? where was this concern by the pa when they were presenting their own proposals based on revenue growth?

Edited by chances14

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I have a really bad feeling now. All I have been hearing about is Fehr withholding information from Union, but I don't think that's true....not the problem. Information was left out of memo due to knowing it woudl be leaked, didn't want full details in there....that's all fine, but my issue is that Bettman is now trying to put a wedge between Fehr and the players. To me, this means talks aren't going well and this certainly isn't going to make them go any better.

Your feeling sounds correct.

Per Aaron Ward's twitter:

According to multiple player sources,"the notion that players don't know what's in CBA proposal is a complete fabrication". Today's meeting was described as 'heated'. One observation,"they couldn't have tried harder to push us away".Sensing huge frustration with the league on share of 'Make Whole',and stood firm on player contracting issues..

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What is this "Well, if you're going to criticize Bettman, you have to hit D. Fehr with the same" business? No, I don't; Bettman is a known evil, a master manipulator.

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You don't believe that Fehr is withholding information, but you do believe that Bettman is now trying to put a wedge between Fehr and the players? I believe its a bit of both going on. If Fehr was communicating well, the players would be on the same page. Right now, some players are either out of the loop or there is confusion. I will say that Fehr's group is much bigger, but the players shouldn't be tweeting that they want clarification.

At the same time though, both Bettman and Fehr are bargaining with their sides in mind. I don't think that either side is really communicating with their respective sides in the detail that they need to. Still, its the majority that need to be addressed.

What confusion are you talking about? From all accounts that I can see...players are on the same page. Are you referring to the Krys Barch tweet? If so, not sure what that shows....I see it as him asking "what are you talking about?"

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I realize that there is a lot more that must be negotiated, but if the League isn't going to budge on either "make whole" or the "honouring of signed contracts" (or both), these negotiations are doomed.

I can't help but think that if Uncle Gary hadn't shouted "LOCKOUT", there would be hockey right now and negotiations would be at the very same

position.

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I realize that there is a lot more that must be negotiated, but if the League isn't going to budge on either "make whole" or the "honouring of signed contracts" (or both), these negotiations are doomed.

I can't help but think that if Uncle Gary hadn't shouted "LOCKOUT", there would be hockey right now and negotiations would be at the very same

position.

There would be hockey, but no negotiations if that happened. Fehr and the players had ZERO incentive to get a deal done under the last proposal. They would have played under that until the deal wasn't good for them anymore and then they would have stepped forward to the negotiating table.

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I realize that there is a lot more that must be negotiated, but if the League isn't going to budge on either "make whole" or the "honouring of signed contracts" (or both), these negotiations are doomed.

I can't help but think that if Uncle Gary hadn't shouted "LOCKOUT", there would be hockey right now and negotiations would be at the very same

position.

they have budged on the make whole but the pa didn't like that the nhl's proposal was based on projected growth. to me that's hypocrisy at it's finest. every pa proposal has been based on projected growth and they mentioned no concerns about if those numbers would be reached, but when the nhl throws the projected growth back at them, they all of a sudden have doubts about whether the numbers can be reached.

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There would be hockey, but no negotiations if that happened. Fehr and the players had ZERO incentive to get a deal done under the last proposal. They would have played under that until the deal wasn't good for them anymore and then they would have stepped forward to the negotiating table.

There is always ways to improve the employees' position during collective bargaining negotiations. They are working to create a deal that is best for themselves; there is absolutely nothing wrong with that line of thinking. The recently expired CBA was not the "end-all and be-all" deal. You can't get it unless you ask for it.

Uncle Gary's "trojan horse" routine isn't working.

The NHLPA's executive director is driving the NHL and its bargaining team crazy.

Good!

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There is always ways to improve the employees' position during collective bargaining negotiations. They are working to create a deal that is best for themselves; there is absolutely nothing wrong with that line of thinking. The recently expired CBA was not the "end-all and be-all" deal. You can't get it unless you ask for it.

I wasn't saying that the CBA was the end-all and be-all deal. I was saying that the players had zero incentive to change it because the deal benefited them the most. If the NHL played hockey this year, then the players would have just sat on the deal and not negotiated at all. Why negotiate a deal that benefits the players the most?

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The reality is that with the amount of concessions the owners are asking for, there's no way the union would ever agree to anything close to what the league wants until they've lost paychecks and had their careers shortened.

The owners are using lost games and paychecks as their best leverage. There's no way they'd ever start a season without a new CBA. In the exact same way, a deal wouldn't have been struck earlier no matter when they started negotiations. Players had paychecks coming and were busy playing hockey. There's no way they'd agree to the league's terms.

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Getting a better deal, in ALL aspects of a collective bargaining agreement, IS incentive to try and reach a new deal, no matter how long or when it gets done.

The players were not going to get a better deal. They knew that.

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fehr said yesterday that they were closer on economics than the nhl thought. yet in the memo leaked a night earlier, he said they was still a lot of work to be done, bridges to be crossed, and a significant gap in the make whole. not sure what that's all about.

this might be one of the reasons why negotiations didn't go well yesterday

Yesterday just started on bad footing when the league and union were supposed to meet at 10 a.m. The union kept the league waiting until 4 p.m., something the Fehrs have done a handful of times throughout this lockout.

Then, instead of responding to the NHL’s proposals on revenue sharing and split of revenues, Don Fehr tried to demonstrate on paper how the two sides mathematically were “much closer together” than the league thought. The league disagreed, and things were off to a bad start and almost instantaneously went into private caucuses.

Edited by chances14

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this might be one of the reasons why negotiations didn't go well yesterday

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Bettman and Fehr are not bargaining in good faith. Too much gamesmanship going on between the two. Which is why, when you factor in all of professional sports, the Fehr and Bettman lockouts have cost their respective clubs over 2,000 games combined.

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How long till Fehr is canned?

Why would Fehr be canned?

The NHLPA has been a mess over the years but this seems the most stable they've been in a while.

And though people like to point to Fehr's strike that cost the MLB playoffs in 95 they overlook the massive collusion he busted the league on and the fact that he negotiated to two CBA's after 95 and that there's been labor peace in baseball since that strike.

Gary Bettman has never negotiated a CBA without a work stoppage. Fehr has. Twice.

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