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stevkrause

Z basically says Bettman should be fired

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Well, they went a full year last time, which is really concerning to me. I truly do hope they are bluffing, because if they are not, they are just plain stupid + getting bad advice. I understand fighting for principle and if they go so far and "win", it won't be for them, it will be for the next players (but even then, there will be different CBA so it will be a waist anyway). The amount of money they will lose from even sitting out a year will never be recouped.

Hmmm... plain stupid? Ryan Sutter and Zach Parise just signed long term contracts worth approximately $100 million each. But I suspect Wild owner Leopold new damn well that the owners were going to ask for an immediate rollback. Is it stupid for Sutter and Parise to resist having their salary rolled back by $20 or $25 million dollars? Or should they be freed from their contracts to be free agents again. I suspect some owner would pay them nearly the same amount AFTER a new CBA. Same for our good friend Sidney Crosby... Do you really think he took maximum market value to sign long-term with the Pens? No way. Yet, I'm sure Mr. Lemiuex knew damn well that the owners were going to ask for a rollback at the time he signed the contract with Crosby. If the owners want to rollback, then any player who signed a contract in the last year should have the option of cancelling their contract and becoming a free agent again... Including players who extended their contract. It's the owners who won't honor the contracts they just signed... not the players.

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Contracts are not etched in stone folks. I'm a contractor myself and see modifications and changes to them in the middle of the contract period all the time. Just sayin'.

esteef

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Simply put, without the fans there wouldn't be an NHL and neither the owners or the players would be making the money they do. without the fans, there is no game to save.

i spend probably close to a $1,000 a year on tickets, merchandise, nhl center ice, etc. In return, i expect that the players are out there on the ice playing to their best abilities.

Take the winter classic for example, there are people from all over the world coming to this event who have already spent a lot of their hard earned money in travel and for hotels to come and watch these guys play. and all of that might be for nothing because millionaires and billionaires can't decide how to split up "our" money.

when it comes to a new cba, as a paying fan, i expect both sides to work their asses off and get a deal done, but neither side has shown any willingness to put aside their pride and egos to get a new deal done

Not sure I agree. The owners asked players to essentially stay in the same CBA system except at much worse levels... Owners asked players to kick in about 25% of their contracts; become ineligible for free agency until late in their career; and otherwise give in to the owners... While the players at least showed some initiative and proposed an alternative arrangement designed to start propping up the financially-stressed clubs. Did the players go far enough? No... But did the owners suggest anythng of merit? Absolutely not. Same system... worse conditions for players. The owners offered zero; nada; nothing in return for total capitulation from the players. The owner's position seems to be that since Columbus is losing a bazillion dollars a year, the salary of every single player in the leagure should be limited to a salary-level that guarantees Columbus break-even... Nevermind that under that solution the rich clubs like Toronto and New York just get richer and richer and richer. The players are limited to the lowest common denominator, while the owners make more and more money. It's the same insane argument that American workers have compete with slave labor in China and that's just how it is... because I (the owners) say so...

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Not sure I agree. The owners asked players to essentially stay in the same CBA system except at much worse levels... Owners asked players to kick in about 25% of their contracts; become ineligible for free agency until late in their career; and otherwise give in to the owners... While the players at least showed some initiative and proposed an alternative arrangement designed to start propping up the financially-stressed clubs. Did the players go far enough? No... But did the owners suggest anythng of merit? Absolutely not. Same system... worse conditions for players. The owners offered zero; nada; nothing in return for total capitulation from the players. The owner's position seems to be that since Columbus is losing a bazillion dollars a year, the salary of every single player in the leagure should be limited to a salary-level that guarantees Columbus break-even... Nevermind that under that solution the rich clubs like Toronto and New York just get richer and richer and richer. The players are limited to the lowest common denominator, while the owners make more and more money. It's the same insane argument that American workers have compete with slave labor in China and that's just how it is... because I (the owners) say so...

i was just responding to the post that said the players and the league don't owe the fans anything. i was not talking about who is right or who is wrong in these negotiation, but supporters of both sides cannot deny that all of them have showed no urgency at all to get this thing resolved up to this point. and that to me is the most frustrating part in all of this.

Edited by chances14

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I'm really starting to think that Bettman is in way over his head. I think the PA brought Fehr in to take Bettman out and save hockey from this dictator. Fehr has taken on MLB many times and won every time. Bettman and the NHL are small compared to MLB, so Fehr can win this without breaking to much of a sweat or losing to much sleep.

The owners have allowed Bettman's to get to powerful, and his self inflated ego is way to big to think straight. Along with being at a disadvantage against Fehr, Bettman is also facing this:

1) Most fans and media are on the side of the players, the longer this goes, the more pressure the owners face.

2) NBC signed a 10 year deal to show games on TV. NBC will pressure Bettman to get a deal done, or they'll do what ESPN didn't and not cover them anyone.

3) The outdoor game and HBO 24/7 is Wings-Leafs. If there's no outdoor game, that's a huge amount of revenue the League will miss out on.

4) 1/3 of the teams are bankrupt. I wouldn't be surprised the longer this goes, teams like Phoenix and Florida may not exists anymore. The owners of those teams may say, "forget it, I don't want to lose anymore money, I'm out"

I'd seriously be surprised if Bettman keeps his job after this lockout. I'd put money on it that this will be his undoing. Seriously how can he ever present the Cup again without his life being threatened? I know I'd be throwing stuff at him.

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Simply put, without the fans there wouldn't be an NHL and neither the owners or the players would be making the money they do. without the fans, there is no game to save.

i spend probably close to a $1,000 a year on tickets, merchandise, nhl center ice, etc. In return, i expect that the players are out there on the ice playing to their best abilities.

Take the winter classic for example, there are people from all over the world coming to this event who have already spent a lot of their hard earned money in travel and for hotels to come and watch these guys play. and all of that might be for nothing because millionaires and billionaires can't decide how to split up "our" money.

when it comes to a new cba, as a paying fan, i expect both sides to work their asses off and get a deal done, but neither side has shown any willingness to put aside their pride and egos to get a new deal done

Our money? Once you buy that jersey or pay for a ticket that money is no longer yours..it is the owners ..when you buy a chocolate bar is it your concern what the guy who owns the 7-11 does or how he spends the money?

Also this fallacy that Bettman is responsible for the lockout is so stupid..he answers to the owners for the 100th time..they tell him they aren't happy and want to lockout the players and it's his job as head of the league and rep of the owners to break the bad news and get the blood on his hands. I don't like the guy for a lot of the things he has done but this is solely on the owners and players and how they want to deal with it.

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Our money? Once you buy that jersey or pay for a ticket that money is no longer yours..it is the owners ..when you buy a chocolate bar is it your concern what the guy who owns the 7-11 does or how he spends the money?

and who do you think pays the players?

The owners do of course. Fans give money to the owners, owners pay the players in part with that money

Without the fans, the owners and players don't even have 3.3 billion dollars in revenue to argue about.

Edited by chances14

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Contracts are not etched in stone folks. I'm a contractor myself and see modifications and changes to them in the middle of the contract period all the time. Just sayin'.

esteef

You need a better contract lawyer. :)

NHL contracts can not be modified without changing the CBA. They are etched in stone.

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Flat out, anyone who uses the "Bettman is doing what the owners want and working for them" defense of him is just proving the point of why he should be removed. A GOOD commissioner of any league does what is the best for the league and makes the hard stances AGAINST the owners when need be, they do not just give the spoiled brats whatever they want, whenever they want and be a yes man. A commissioner works for the league, not the owners. Bettman is a spineless yes man that bends over at all of the bog's whims and never tells them no, even when it's what is best for the LEAGUE.

More games lost than ALL of the other 3 major sports combined under Bettman's watch... Tell me again how he is doing a good job...

The NHL needs a leader and a visionary, not a spineless weasel that won't stand up to the owners in the best interest of the league when he needs to... and to put it quite bluntly, if you disagree with this post, then you are beyond logic and not worth debating with anyway.

Edited by stevkrause

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Contracts are not etched in stone folks. I'm a contractor myself and see modifications and changes to them in the middle of the contract period all the time. Just sayin'.

esteef

In your business, do the people who hired you typically modify your contract to pay you 10-20% less while expecting you to do the same amount of work?

Because I'm guessing you're talking about contract modifications to add or reduce work based on the changing needs of who hired you. Which also involves a proportionate increase or decrease in pay.

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More games lost than ALL of the other 3 major sports combined under Bettman's watch... Tell me again how he is doing a good job...

Record revenues. League won both previous lockouts, and will likely win this one. Tell me again how Bettman is not doing what the owners want?

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Flat out, anyone who users the "Bettman is doing what the owners want and working for them" defense of him is just proving the point of why he should be removed. A GOOD commissioner of any league does what is the best for the league and makes the hard stances AGAINST the owners when need be, they do not just give the spoiled brats whatever they want, whenever they want and be a yes man. A commissioner works for the league, not the owners. Bettman is a spineless yes man that bends over at all of the bog's whims and never tells them no, even when it's what is best for the LEAGUE.

More games lost than ALL of the other 3 major sports combined under Bettman's watch... Tell me again how he is doing a good job...

The NHL needs a leader and a visionary, not a spineless weasel that won't stand up to the owners in the best interest of the league when he needs to... and to put it quite bluntly, if you disagree with this post, then you are beyond logic and not worth debating with anyway.

Exactly we need a guy, who is willing to do the best for the sport, respect its integrity, tradition and style of play instead of wasting money on failed areas and trying to please a bunch of super greedy billionaires, who want to own a hockeyclub but aren't commited to invest in it despite revenue-sharing. There is simple no defense for Bettman, he is the best of example of someone with no atlethic skills, anti-hockey, special stereotype lawyer AND an absolute dirtbag when it comes to tough question on top of the that he hates Canada and players rights and yet.

There is no excuse for 3 lockouts in 10 decades, Ireally hope the players tsay strong and hold on to their let's go to war style, otherwhise we are going to have this crap every 6 years and that is simple unacceptable. Mr. Lockout needs to be fired for the good of the game. I think Gretzky would be the best person for the job, a living legend, loves the game and is respected by everyone.

Lemieux I am sure this guy would have been thrilled to sign a contract and then only months later, having it changed into less value, great days. Seriously a contract is something both sides have to agree by free will, if the contract gets changed there needs to be an outclause in it and I really hope some Russian stars are being serious about staying in the KHL. This lockout is different, the players are fed up, so is the media and they do have options to play elsewhere and making at least as much money if not more.

I know two super easy ways for the NHL to make more money:

fire a certain undersized bastard and reward QC with a team, voila two of the biggest problems solved.

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In your business, do the people who hired you typically modify your contract to pay you 10-20% less while expecting you to do the same amount of work?

Because I'm guessing you're talking about contract modifications to add or reduce work based on the changing needs of who hired you. Which also involves a proportionate increase or decrease in pay.

The changes are more in terms of what will continue to be done on contract and how long they will be done for. So specifically they don't address pay, but ultimately they certainly affect pay for the contract period. Sometimes the changes benefit me, sometimes they don't.

edit: So yes, the changes are not soley "salary" in nature. Just making the point that contracts change all the time for people who are "OMFG! They signed a contract!"

esteef

Edited by esteef

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Z should just .... be quiet. It is ridiculous and inadequate when an employee of one of the company in big holding speak publicly about firing CEO. Oh if he brave enough, speak about Ilitch or Holland... Why dont he step into Mike Ilitch office and ask him to fire Battman?

He is in no position to give such advise. What he should take care of is Fehr, as this clown is equally (or even more) responsible for what is happening.

Edited by ami

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Z should just .... be quiet. It is ridiculous and inadequate when an employee of one of the company in big holding speak publicly about firing CEO. Oh if he brave enough, speak about Ilitch or Holland... Why dont he step into Mike Ilitch office and ask him to fire Battman?

He is in no position to give such advise. What he should take care of is Fehr, as this clown is equally (or even more) responsible for what is happening.

Not true at all:

a.) this is an owners lockout. The players and NHLPA would have been willing to play under the old/temporary CBA

b.) midget and owners are responsible for placing teams into non hockey areas

c.) what the hell is this? dictationship how about the free speech? Z isn't the only one who is RIGHTFULLY fed up with a guy making 8 million a year without any athletic skills at all so are Toews, Crosby, Selanne

d.) I'd suggest reading Fehrs interview he gave a clear indication of how things really are instead of avoiding the tough ones like a certain commissioner

This lockout will break a lot of the expansion teams especially the sunbelt ones but whatever keep it going over multiple years, if it means Bettman is finally getting the hard boot and some I want to play it poor franchises are going to be relocated into hockeymarkets, it is well worth it.

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Gary Bettman admitted he'd never been to an NHL game in his life before becoming commissioner and has run the NHL like a guy who had never been to an NHL game before becoming Commissioner.

Any time Bettman says he feels for the fans or mentions the fans being the real losers in his lockout how would he know? He's not an NHL fan.

Edited by Jersey Wing
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a.) this is an owners lockout. ...

True. There is no such thing as 'players lockout'

a.) .... The players and NHLPA would have been willing to play under the old/temporary CBA

True, as it guarantees they keep getting their paychecks. Of course, they have. Who wouldn't want to receive paychecks while doing their jobs?!

However, the really important thing here is that businesses who pays these checks are loosing money and at some point of time won't be able to pay these checks anymore. and this point is not far away.

b.) midget and owners are responsible for placing teams into non hockey areas

I have to agree with you on this, provided you meant owner were being way too risky businesswise.

c.) what the hell is this? dictationship how about the free speech? Z isn't the only one who is RIGHTFULLY fed up with a guy making 8 million a year without any athletic skills at all so are Toews, Crosby, Selanne

I'd suggest you'd take Logic 101 course. For some reason, you accept owners assesment and willingness to pay $8 mln. to Toews, Crosby, Selanne etc., but won't agree with them paying Bettmen...

Anyway, it is not you or Z who pays, but businesses who are earning these money and that's why they are the once who decides.

On the other hand, Z's paying Fehr. And Fehr has failed to do what he was hired (by Z) to do. And now Z's complaining about everything, but Fehr... It sounds weird, doesn't it. As if he would compain that opposing team had won because they cheated all the way, while Z's team had played like a crap... :)

d.) I'd suggest reading Fehrs interview he gave a clear indication of how things really are instead of avoiding the tough ones like a certain commissioner

I have. And I don't believe him.

Why on the Earth would you believe this charachter Fehr, who knows nothing about hockey and has nothing to do with hockey and, on the other side, you would not believe Jim Devellano who has been living hockey all his live and has been running professional hockey organization for a long long time and knows everything about hockey? Why exactly?

Logic 101 may help.

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and who do you think pays the players?

The owners do of course. Fans give money to the owners, owners pay the players in part with that money

Without the fans, the owners and players don't even have 3.3 billion dollars in revenue to argue about.

Fans rarely give money to owners. Large chunks of that cash you gave for your jersey goes to Reebok, a large chunk of the ten buck you buy a beer with goes to Miller, etc. You think the Wings organisation get these things for free? Of course not. They buy them at wholesale prices and sell them for a bit of a profit. That's just consumer business. Tickets are similar in that a large chunk of revenue will go towards upkeep of the Joe, casual staff such as security and refreshment vendors, and rarely on player wages.

If you want to make a big fuss about who pays the players salary then cry for all the investors like Little Caesars, or Fox, or Amway, or any of the other corporate sponsors who pump money into this team which the organisation can freely spend on player acquisitions. Fan money goes so far as paying for an organisations retail division if you will, so cry when someone doesn't smile when they give you a beer or a pretzel, that's fine. But it can't really be claimed that fan money pays players as there really isn't enough fan money to do that. Case in point: if fans start to stay away from games, there is less of a need for retail staff - take in less money but spend less as well, it balances out. The problem with teams losing money isn't the fan base or teams like New Jersey wouldn't be in that situation. It's BIG money they have problems with.

Edited by Wing Across The Pond

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Fans rarely give money to owners. Large chunks of that cash you gave for your jersey goes to Reebok, a large chunk of the ten buck you buy a beer with goes to Miller, etc. You think the Wings organisation get these things for free? Of course not. They buy them at wholesale prices and sell them for a bit of a profit. That's just consumer business. Tickets are similar in that a large chunk of revenue will go towards upkeep of the Joe, casual staff such as security and refreshment vendors, and rarely on player wages.

If you want to make a big fuss about who pays the players salary then cry for all the investors like Little Caesars, or Fox, or Amway, or any of the other corporate sponsors who pump money into this team which the organisation can freely spend on player acquisitions. Fan money goes so far as paying for an organisations retail division if you will, so cry when someone doesn't smile when they give you a beer or a pretzel, that's fine. But it can't really be claimed that fan money pays players as there really isn't enough fan money to do that. Case in point: if fans start to stay away from games, there is less of a need for retail staff - take in less money but spend less as well, it balances out. The problem with teams losing money isn't the fan base or teams like New Jersey wouldn't be in that situation. It's BIG money they have problems with.

lack of fan support IS part of the problem. New Jersey, columbus, nashville, phoenix, atlanta before they moved to winninpeg, have all ranked in the bottom 10 of attendance every year since the lockout. so while it's not the only problem with these teams, it certainly is a part of it.

anyways back to the point in hand. Without the fans, there would be no corporate sponsors or tv deals. what company would want to sponsor or televise a league that nobody watches or cares about? do you honestly think that if there were no NHL fans, that the league would have made 3.3 billion dollars last year? i don't think so.

and if the league doesn't make money, how would they be able to afford to pay these players millions of dollars?

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Blaming Bettman is easy. He's annoying to look at (Very weasel-like), annoying to listen to and hes been around for 3 lock-outs/strikes. The problem is that its not really accurate. He is employed by the owners and does as they want him to do. I'm sure Gary has a lot of influence on some owners but its certianly at least a shared blame.

I am frankly very fed-up with both sides and I am seriously considering abandoning watching NHL hockey all together. The owners signed all these players to all these ridiculous contracts and are now crying about the very contracts they signed. Meanwhile the players seem to have lost touch with reality. They say they wont take less money but then sign contracts to play in Europe for mere fractions of what they were making in the NHL. The dollars they are splitting up would be like me and Esteef choosing who gets the Ferrari and who gets the Lamborghini.

Both sides need to grow the f%^k up, stop being so astronomically f%^king stupid and figure this out before they start losing REAL hockey fans.

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a large chunk of the ten buck you buy a beer with goes to Miller

I hate to nitpick on something off topic, but thats not true. A keg of Miller sells at RETAIL for $100, and appx $70-80 wholesale (ie. to bars, restaurants, hockey rinks, etc) and contains about 165 12oz servings. You can do the math and figure out how much bars, restaurants, sports venues, etc are making off of it.

Miller is actually only making a few cents per beer after expenses. They make their money by moving large volumes. Everyone else in the chain makes a lot more off the beer per ounce than the actual brewers do.

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