2013 BlueAdams Where Are You, Line Thread

[BottleOfSmoke 5,965]

I've lurked for awhile but I thought I'd reg and reply to this.

Welcome!

[LeftWinger 4,936]

I've lurked for awhile but I thought I'd reg and reply to this. These are the lines I think we should roll with, not the ones I think we eventually will.

Nyquist-Datsyuk-Franzen

Filppula-Zetterberg-Brunner

Miller-Helm-Tootoo

Cleary-Abdelkader-Sammy

Bertuzzi

Mursak

The top six to me was fairly easy. Bert can't be there anymore. He's very skilled but he's an anchor (and if we could trade for a forward I'd drop Mule, too). Skilled anchors worked in the olden days but now, I'd rather have younger faster legs. Contact sports rely on the push/pull relationship between contact and speed. The more we reduce contact, the more the game becomes about speed. Gus and Brunner need to take spots from guys like Bert and Cleary. If Cleary can show he's gotten some speed back, I'm all for him moving around but his lack of speed killed his game the last couple seasons. Brunner's got to at least start and likely stay with Hank, and so does Fil after last season. First line could be solid gold if god willing Mule wants to try. Third line I think could be a total nightmare for any team in the league to play against. Miller usually adapts and plays like his linemates and Helm/Tootoo are wrecking balls. Miller's shown the ability to play fast and hard. Tootoo is that extra dimension we needed on our grind line. I honestly think this line could top out as best in the league for pure grinding. 4th line is blah, whatever, Bert and Sammy can battle it out.

Kronwall-White

E-Quincey

Coliacovo-Smith

Kindl

I don't think our D is as bad as some say but I do think it needs improving. However how many true top end dmen exist anymore? It seems we're swimming in a sea of really good but not great players with only Weber, Chara, Suter and maybe Doughty left as elite. I think our top D pairing won't hurt much, contrary to popular belief. Nik I think is capable of doing what Nick's done the last few seasons. It's the second pairing that will hurt badly. No matter what we do we won't get a second line as rock solid as Nik and Stu. E and Quincey are a scary drop-off, even if I think we underrate both of them a little bit. We need to make a trade or scoop up someone who has been bought out, or something. I think the bottom 4 may swap in and out with eachother until something works. Team D this year more than ever, I think.

Howard

Gustavsson

I'll also say that I'd bet the lines will change pretty frequently until Babcock starts thinking it's a bad idea to tinker too much, especially with the forwards.

First things first! Welcome aboard!

Second, I like the lines, but unfortuantely I think Bert gets the nod over Miller. I, also would trade Franzen (surprise there, eh?) I would offer him in a trade to Vancouver (where he would fit in well with the twins) in exchange for Alex Burrows. This may be something Vancouver would do just to team up Franzen with the twins. Burrows would flourish here and Franzine would flourish there and he could also be the guy to put them over the top in their quest for a Cup. Alex would come here and work his ass off night in and night out and possibly net 30 with Dats or Z or Flip as his center...plus he doesn't cry publically about getting bored playing hockey...

The D is tricky. I totally believe Kronner will hit 50-60 points next full season and that, coupled with his hitting and leadership should solidify his #1 status here. After this short season, there isn't ANYTHING really available to write home about outside of Ryan Whitney, so the Wings are going to have to draft D this summer and try to trade up in fact to get the next top 2 defender who MUST step in the league next season, no later than 2014-2015. I would love to see them be able to get Seth Jones, but that is one hell of a trade up...there are also some fine other D available, but I think it is time to draft that next instant NHL player and with the way the Wings played to end the season and the playoffs, they may just have themselves a top 15-10 pick... they could definately snag a Pulock or Hagg with a top 15.

[joesuffP 1,746]

I think flip-Datsyuk-Bert needs to be a line... They'll get production through hardwork and forecheck. they'll force a lot of turn overs

Zetterberg seems to find chemistry with everyone he plays with and I don't remember a time where Franzen got a lot of time playing on his wing...

Franzen-Zetterberg-Brunner will be well balanced and each player having the ability to beat goalies with their shot

[number9 3,297]

I think flip-Datsyuk-Bert needs to be a line... They'll get production through hardwork and forecheck. they'll force a lot of turn overs

Zetterberg seems to find chemistry with everyone he plays with and I don't remember a time where Franzen got a lot of time playing on his wing...

Franzen-Zetterberg-Brunner will be well balanced and each player having the ability to beat goalies with their shot

Would be an awesomeeeeeeeee line. Only a problem I see is then who plays on Datsyuks RW? Fil? Goose?

[kipwinger 8,495]

I really don't understand why everyone is so interested in seeing Datsyuk and Nyquist together. Both are playmakers who need the puck on their stick to be effective. Both provide MANY more assists than they do goals. Neither are overly large and generally play on the perimeter. It's no secret that Datsyuk's best seasons came on a line with Zetterberg who loves to shoot. It doesn't do either of them any good to stickhandle around and create space only to pass to someone who doesn't want to shoot. I really like Nyquist, and obviously Datsyuk is a king, but putting them together just reinforces what many around here have recognized as a problem for a while...too many playmakers and not enough finishers. Both Dats and Nyquist need shooters to really maximize their potential, putting them together is a waste. I understand why people want to see Nyquist in the top six, and he will be soon, but barring injury he's better left in the AHL for this season.

Edited January 7, 2013 by kipwinger

[GoWings1905 2,694]

What about PK lines?

Helm-Miller

Kronwall-Ericsson

Abdelkader-Cleary/Filppula

Colaiacovo-Quincey (Yuck)

[shoobiedoobin 138]

Thanks for the welcome folks

I don't really have a specific reason to put Pav with Gus aside from not having many other options and not having enough time to really look at Gus. But they seemed to work well together. Pav I wouldn't be worried about, if you actually try he'll make you look good. Nyquist is more effective with the puck but hey, having the best passer feeding you can be nice.

[joesuffP 1,746]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="number9" data-cid="2338319" data-time="1357600629"><p>

<br />

Would be an awesomeeeeeeeee line. Only a problem I see is then who plays on Datsyuks RW? Fil? Goose? </p></blockquote>

Ya no real shooters but I think flip and pavs defense and tenacity will create scoring chances... If it doesn't work put Sammy on there and Bert on the 3rd. Pavs and flip playing together will get their points one way or another but our first line needs to be a game changer

[kipwinger 8,495]

Thanks for the welcome folks

I don't really have a specific reason to put Pav with Gus aside from not having many other options and not having enough time to really look at Gus. But they seemed to work well together. Pav I wouldn't be worried about, if you actually try he'll make you look good. Nyquist is more effective with the puck but hey, having the best passer feeding you can be nice.

I agree, Datsyuk makes everyone look better. But it's about maximizing effectiveness. Ideally you don't want two guys on the same line that do the same thing. When I think about really good line combos I think about Getzlaf, Perry, and Ryan...or Dats, Zetterberg, and Holmstrom. A playmaker, a shooter, and a crease guy. Now I wouldn't be opposed to having Dats play with Brunner, and Nyquist with Zetterberg, in each case you'd have a playmaker and a guy who likes to shoot, then fill in the third with whomever. But putting Nyquist with Dats is like putting Crosby with Malkin. Only one of them can be a wizard with the puck at any given time. You need guys that play well away from the puck to compliment these types of players.

Edit: Now that I think about it, we've seen what Brunner does with Zetterberg and it's been awesome, but there's every reason to believe that he'll be twice as slick with Datsyuk. I'll be really interested to see what those two will do together given the chance.

So here goes...

Brunner-Datsyuk-Franzen

Flip-Zetterberg-Bert/Cleary

Sammy-Helm-Bert/Cleary

Tootoo-Abby-Miller/Eaves/etc.

I like the look of these.

Edited January 8, 2013 by kipwinger

[Z and D for the C 712]

As long as Bertuzzi isn't in the top 6, I'm sure I'll be happy. I'd like to see Flip play with Pav though, that's something we don't often get to see, and would likely work wonders. That said, we know he's great with Z as well. What I'd like to see:

Flip Pav Franzen

Sammy/Nyquist Z Brunner

Nyquist/Sammy Helm Cleary

Miller/Bert Abds Tootoo

Bert/Miller

[kipwinger 8,495]

As long as Bertuzzi isn't in the top 6, I'm sure I'll be happy. I'd like to see Flip play with Pav though, that's something we don't often get to see, and would likely work wonders. That said, we know he's great with Z as well. What I'd like to see:

Flip Pav Franzen

Sammy/Nyquist Z Brunner

Nyquist/Sammy Helm Cleary

Miller/Bert Abds Tootoo

Bert/Miller

Why the Bertuzzi hate? Were his 38 pts. not impressive enough? He's a complimentary piece, with size, soft hands, and ability to cycle down low. Paired with the right linemates he's still a very effective player. Especially considering he's the only forward we have with any size who is strong on the puck and hard to take it away from. How do you justify putting him on a checking line at 38 years old and without good speed to begin with? Might as well not even play him if that's the plan, and presumably replace him with who? A small skilled forward? Sheahan? There's nobody else.

[LidstromIsASuperhero 29]

Why not three scoring lines? We have the personnel to do it.

Franzen-Zetterberg-Brunner

Bertuzzi-Datsyuk-Samuelsson

Nyquist-Filppula-Cleary

Miller-Helm-Tootoo

Mursak-Abdelkader-Eaves

Kronwall-Quincey

White-Ericsson

Smith-Colaicovo

Kindl

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Why the Bertuzzi hate? Were his 38 pts. not impressive enough? He's a complimentary piece, with size, soft hands, and ability to cycle down low. Paired with the right linemates he's still a very effective player. Especially considering he's the only forward we have with any size who is strong on the puck and hard to take it away from. How do you justify putting him on a checking line at 38 years old and without good speed to begin with? Might as well not even play him if that's the plan, and presumably replace him with who? A small skilled forward? Sheahan? There's nobody else.

No, considering how he played with Datsyuk or Zetterberg at various points in the season.

If you can't score more than 38 points playing with those players, you shouldn't be on the top two lines. Just means he was dragging those guys back from scoring even more.

[Guest fat guy in a maltby jersey]

Bertuzzi-Datsyuk-Samuelsson

can you imagine what might go through datsyuk's head as he skates out for the game 1 opening faceoff with these 2 wingers?

i'd be on the first plane back to russia if i were him.

[LeftWinger 4,936]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="number9" data-cid="2338319" data-time="1357600629"><p>

<br />

Would be an awesomeeeeeeeee line. Only a problem I see is then who plays on Datsyuks RW? Fil? Goose? </p></blockquote>

Ya no real shooters but I think flip and pavs defense and tenacity will create scoring chances... If it doesn't work put Sammy on there and Bert on the 3rd. Pavs and flip playing together will get their points one way or another but our first line needs to be a game changer

Which would have been such with Rick Nash or Bobby Ryan on it...Hell even Semin. It will be one of the lower level first lines with Franzine or Bertuzzi on it... May as well go with:

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Brunner

Franzine - Filppula - Bertuzzi

Cleary - Helm - Sammy

Miller - Abby - Tootoo

...especially if Nyquist is gonna stay in GR for a bit longer...

[kipwinger 8,495]

No, considering how he played with Datsyuk or Zetterberg at various points in the season.

If you can't score more than 38 points playing with those players, you shouldn't be on the top two lines. Just means he was dragging those guys back from scoring even more.

So who would you replace him with? Also, perhaps he didn't score more because he played the majority of the season on a line with Frazen, who plays the exact same game as Bert, only younger. As I've previously stated, if you have two guys on a line that play the same game, one of them will suffer.

Edited January 8, 2013 by kipwinger

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

So who would you replace him with?

Anyone younger than 38, with more talent and work ethic. Shouldn't be hard.

I don't know if Holland plans on doing anything at this point. I know he didn't do much last offseason to bolster this team.

As far as our current roster goes, I gave you what I thought was the best lineup. I never said I liked the lineup. Bert is another player like Sammy that doesn't belong well on any line.

Maybe we can just dress him for those cheap shootout points we're going to need in this short season.

[Z and D for the C 712]

We have the personnel to do it.

Not by a long shot.

[kipwinger 8,495]

Anyone younger than 38, with more talent and work ethic. Shouldn't be hard.

I don't know if Holland plans on doing anything at this point. I know he didn't do much last offseason to bolster this team.

As far as our current roster goes, I gave you what I thought was the best lineup. I never said I liked the lineup. Bert is another player like Sammy that doesn't belong well on any line.

Maybe we can just dress him for those cheap shootout points we're going to need in this short season.

Are there lots of guys on our roster, or in the league for that matter, who have the same size as Bert with more talent and work ethic? As a matter of fact where does this belief that he's not talented or doesn't work hard come from? I can recall multiple interviews in which Babcock lauds Bertuzzi's work ethic.

Edited January 8, 2013 by kipwinger

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Are there lots of guys on our roster, or in the league for that matter, who have the same size as Bert with more talent and work ethic. As a matter of fact where does this belief that he's not talented or doesn't work hard come from? I can recall multiple interviews in which Babcock lauds Bertuzzi's work ethic.

You contradict yourself. You said earlier that he scored 38 points last year. Now you suggest that he's big, talented and has a good work ethic. Wouldn't a big, talented forward with good work ethic score more than 38 points, especially if he's playing with Pavel or Hank? I would think so.

The truth is that he's a big time floater and is too streaky. That belief comes from watching him on the ice and from his point totals. And of course there's guys in the league who are 6'3 and have a better work ethic with more talent than Bert. He's almost 40 and offers nothing at this point, besides shootout goals. His point totals are dropping and I doubt his upside has increased during this lockout.

Babcock was being nice. He's not going to tell the media that Bert is lazy. I'm sure Babcock wishes Holland went out and bolstered the top 6 after the last several underwhelming playoffs from the team.

[LeftWinger 4,936]

Bert has not been the same since "The Incident." I don't know if he was on roids back then or what, but he is a docile puppy now. Talking about scoring points(or lack of) on our top line, you would think someone with the "scoring ability" of Franzen would score more than 56 points there too...nope, just another floater, but he has ZERO work ethic...Datsyuk needs a 50 goal scorer on his wing.

I cannot belive Bert is here for two more seasons and Franzine for 8...what a waste of money....at least it's only half a season this year...Franzine better get at least 50 points in this shortened season, maybe since its a sprint of a season, maybe he will have some drive to score everytime he is out there...I won't hold my breathe, but with him being the "sniper" on this roster, he needs to prove it.

Edited January 8, 2013 by LeftWinger

[kipwinger 8,495]

You contradict yourself. You said earlier that he scored 38 points last year. Now you suggest that he's big, talented and has a good work ethic. Wouldn't a big, talented forward with good work ethic score more than 38 points, especially if he's playing with Pavel or Hank? I would think so.

The truth is that he's a big time floater and is too streaky. That belief comes from watching him on the ice and from his point totals. And of course there's guys in the league who are 6'3 and have a better work ethic with more talent than Bert. He's almost 40 and offers nothing at this point, besides shootout goals. His point totals are dropping and I doubt his upside has increased during this lockout.

Babcock was being nice. He's not going to tell the media that Bert is lazy. I'm sure Babcock wishes Holland went out and bolstered the top 6 after the last several underwhelming playoffs from the team.

Here's Babcock talking about Bertuzzi's work ethic...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/02/red_wings_happy_with_todd_bert.html

Here's Lidstrom...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/01/red_wings_todd_bertuzzi_contin.html

Here's Ansar Khan...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/11/red_wings_scouting_report_miss.html

Babcock again...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/01/red_wings_todd_bertuzzi_game-w.html

Babcock again...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2009/11/forward_todd_bertuzzi_looking.html

Babcock and Brad Stuart...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2010/11/todd_bertuzzis_emphasis_on_def.html

Where's the link that suggests he's a loafer again? Or is this some sort of unsubstantiated opinion of yours? If Babcock was being nice where are the articles where he (out of the kindness of his heart) goes on at length about how hard Franzen works?

Two years ago, at 38 years old, and despite a waning skill set, Tomas Holmstrom scored 18 goals. Obviously old guys can still produce in the right roles. However, as I said, when Bert is on a line with Franzen who plays the exact same game, his points are going to suffer.

Bert has not been the same since "The Incident." I don't know if he was on roids back then or what, but he is a docile puppy now. Talking about scoring points(or lack of) on our top line, you would think someone with the "scoring ability" of Franzen would score more than 56 points there too...nope, just another floater, but he has ZERO work ethic...Datsyuk needs a 50 goal scorer on his wing.

I cannot belive Bert is here for two more seasons and Franzine for 8...what a waste of money....at least it's only half a season this year...Franzine better get at least 50 points in this shortened season, maybe since its a sprint of a season, maybe he will have some drive to score everytime he is out there...I won't hold my breathe, but with him being the "sniper" on this roster, he needs to prove it.

Nobody ever said Franzen was a sniper. He scores most of his goals around the crease and in high traffic areas, and always has. Steven Stamkos is a sniper, Franzen is a "power" forward. The only person who seems to hold his "not being a sniper" against him is you. That said, I agree that he doesn't work very hard.

Edit: 50 pts. in 48-50 games huh? Nobody on our team, including Dats and Z are a point per game player at this point. If that's your standard for success then almost everyone in the league is a failure.

Edited January 8, 2013 by kipwinger

[LeftWinger 4,936]

Here's Babcock talking about Bertuzzi's work ethic...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/02/red_wings_happy_with_todd_bert.html

Here's Lidstrom...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/01/red_wings_todd_bertuzzi_contin.html

Here's Ansar Khan...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/11/red_wings_scouting_report_miss.html

Babcock again...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/01/red_wings_todd_bertuzzi_game-w.html

Babcock again...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2009/11/forward_todd_bertuzzi_looking.html

Babcock and Brad Stuart...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2010/11/todd_bertuzzis_emphasis_on_def.html

Where's the link that suggests he's a loafer again? Or is this some sort of unsubstantiated opinion of yours? If Babcock was being nice where are the articles where he (out of the kindness of his heart) goes on at length about how hard Franzen works?

Nobody ever said Franzen was a sniper. He scores most of his goals around the crease and in high traffic areas, and always has. Steven Stamkos is a sniper, Franzen is a "power" forward. The only person who seems to hold his "not being a sniper" against him is you. That said, I agree that he doesn't work very hard.

True, but Hossa is a sniper and Franzen was chosen over him to be our Sniper, then he signed the contract and has gotten lazy. I guess they were hoping that Franzen would lift his game each year, yet it has stalled and now he cannot even score on a consistant level. Sure he had 29 goals, but he seems to score 20 before December and then falls off, only to not be able to pick it back up in the playoffs. Like I said, I hope this short season he stays motivated and nets 20 goals among 40-50 points to truely take over as the scorer he was signed to be. I cannot take another 8 years of the last 3 from Franzen... Sorry but with the disposal of Hudler, Frazine has slid right into the top spot for hatred from me, with Kindl right behind him. Hopefully they both do something this year to change my mind...

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Bert has not been the same since "The Incident." I don't know if he was on roids back then or what, but he is a docile puppy now. Talking about scoring points(or lack of) on our top line, you would think someone with the "scoring ability" of Franzen would score more than 56 points there too...nope, just another floater, but he has ZERO work ethic...Datsyuk needs a 50 goal scorer on his wing.

I cannot belive Bert is here for two more seasons and Franzine for 8...what a waste of money....at least it's only half a season this year...Franzine better get at least 50 points in this shortened season, maybe since its a sprint of a season, maybe he will have some drive to score everytime he is out there...I won't hold my breathe, but with him being the "sniper" on this roster, he needs to prove it.

What incident? Is there something I'm missing here?

Here's Babcock talking about Bertuzzi's work ethic...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/02/red_wings_happy_with_todd_bert.html

Here's Lidstrom...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/01/red_wings_todd_bertuzzi_contin.html

Here's Ansar Khan...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/11/red_wings_scouting_report_miss.html

Babcock again...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/01/red_wings_todd_bertuzzi_game-w.html

Babcock again...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2009/11/forward_todd_bertuzzi_looking.html

Babcock and Brad Stuart...http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2010/11/todd_bertuzzis_emphasis_on_def.html

Where's the link that suggests he's a loafer again? Or is this some sort of unsubstantiated opinion of yours? If Babcock was being nice where are the articles where he (out of the kindness of his heart) goes on at length about how hard Franzen works?

If that's Babcock's opinion, it's no wonder this team hasn't gone anywhere the last few seasons. He needs to take his blinders off and look at the product on the ice.

[kipwinger 8,495]

True, but Hossa is a sniper and Franzen was chosen over him to be our Sniper, then he signed the contract and has gotten lazy. I guess they were hoping that Franzen would lift his game each year, yet it has stalled and now he cannot even score on a consistant level. Sure he had 29 goals, but he seems to score 20 before December and then falls off, only to not be able to pick it back up in the playoffs. Like I said, I hope this short season he stays motivated and nets 20 goals among 40-50 points to truely take over as the scorer he was signed to be. I cannot take another 8 years of the last 3 from Franzen... Sorry but with the disposal of Hudler, Frazine has slid right into the top spot for hatred from me, with Kindl right behind him. Hopefully they both do something this year to change my mind...

He was not chosen over Hossa "to be our sniper". He was chosen over Hossa because at that point in their careers Franzen provided similar production for less money. Also because the Wings are typically loyal to those who perform well for them, which up to that point Franzen has. Again, you keep suggesting that the team expected him to be a sniper when the only person who feels that way is you.

What incident? Is there something I'm missing here?

If that's Babcock's opinion, it's no wonder this team hasn't gone anywhere the last few seasons. He needs to take his blinders off and look at the product on the ice.

Right, the most successful coach since the lockout should take pointers from you, good call.

Edited January 8, 2013 by kipwinger