Guest The Axe Report post Posted February 21, 2013 What is the reason everyone is so down on this guy? He's not Nick Lidstrom. He's not Nick Kronwall. He's not even Jonathan Ericsson. You know what he is? A +6. I hope Babs is just giving him a rest tonight and not sending any messages. You can say what you want about +/- as a stat, but it does measure who's on the ice when your team scores vs. when the other team scores. If everyone was a +6 right now, we'd be in a lot better shape. Give Kindl and Quincey time, and I wouldnt be surprised to see them fill the roles we want to see them fill = 3rd/4th pairing defensemen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MabusIncarnate 5,359 Report post Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) As banged up as our defense is I don't think scratching him tonight isn't just giving him a rest. If he was paired with the lines that are on the ice the most I think we'd see a different picture. I could live without the plus minus stat and that stat really doesn't say a whole lot about anything. +1 for you though Axe for finally posting something reasonably positive, still not sure if it needed it's own thread though. Edited February 21, 2013 by BlazeYoungblood 1 MidMichSteve reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sputman 1,268 Report post Posted February 21, 2013 Kyle Quincey is currently tied for 1st on the team for plus/minus with Datsyuk. Does he stand out to you as being particularly good so far this year? 1 SiLkK19 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jollymania 162 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 He took 3 boneheaded penalties last game. That sucks. 1 PavelValerievichDatsyuk reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,755 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 As much as people complain about +/-, and there is some reason to mistrust it, it does tend to give an accurate picture of how involved guys are in team scoring over time. When guys consistently are in the positive over the course of a season, or a career, you get a pretty good idea that this person is generating offense. It doesn't, however, say too much about defense. In Kindl's case this is generally supported by Babcock's comments last week to the effect of..."Kindl moves the puck really well, but isn't playing too well on defense". I don't mind Kindl, and just like I've said with everyone from Bert to Flip to Abby. Put them in the right roles, which accentuate their skill sets rather than forcing them to play in a manner different than what got them to the NHL in the first place, and they'll succeed. Forcing them to be something they aren't is inefficient. Kindl is a decent puck mover who plays well in transition. Play him with a stay at home, reliable d-man like Huskins and he'll excell. Ask him to be Huskins and he'll fail. It shouldn't be either Kindl or Huskins, realistically is should be Kindl or Quincey, Coliacovo, or White. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haroldsnepsts 4,826 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 Kindl and Quincey being among the top in +/- only shows how mostly useless the stat is. After the first few games Quincey hasn't been as awful as people make him sound a lot of the time, but he's not been great. Kindl's been slightly more physical but just when I think he's starting to get it together he gets caught well out of position or just turns the puck over by shooting it up the boards in a panic. Kronwall is lowest on the team with a -9. He's clearly been struggling in his new role as a top D man, but he's also asked to do a lot more than Kindl and Quincey. So it's not like that stat shows they're playing better than Kronwall. When Datsyuk beat all the Preds on the ice to score, all the Wings on the ice got a plus 1. Likewise when White's stick broke and he was flailing around on the ice, everyone on the ice got a minus 1. there's just too many random factors for it to mean much of anything. Plus-minus and the secondary assist are the most misleading stats in hockey. 1 kipwinger reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MCleveland89 122 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 Lidstrom was a -2 last year. Would you take Kindl over Lidstrom? Didn't think so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,755 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) Kindl and Quincey being among the top in +/- only shows how mostly useless the stat is. After the first few games Quincey hasn't been as awful as people make him sound a lot of the time, but he's not been great. Kindl's been slightly more physical but just when I think he's starting to get it together he gets caught well out of position or just turns the puck over by shooting it up the boards in a panic. Kronwall is lowest on the team with a -9. He's clearly been struggling in his new role as a top D man, but he's also asked to do a lot more than Kindl and Quincey. So it's not like that stat shows they're playing better than Kronwall. When Datsyuk beat all the Preds on the ice to score, all the Wings on the ice got a plus 1. Likewise when White's stick broke and he was flailing around on the ice, everyone on the ice got a minus 1. there's just too many random factors for it to mean much of anything. Plus-minus and the secondary assist are the most misleading stats in hockey. I agree, he does get caught out of position a lot. However, I'm not always too bummed about about it considering it's usually when he's trying to make plays. And on a team that in my opinion is often too passive, guys who try to make something happen will generally get more of a pass from me. Same goes for penalties. I get super pissed at hooking, tripping, etc. Or as I call them, the lazy penalties. But put someone hard into the glass and get an interference, or bury them into the net (both of which Kindl has done quite recently) and I'll give it a pass for the aggressiveness of it. None of which is to say that there isn't room to improve, but there are deficiencies that drive me crazy, and those that with a little more patience can be turned into positives. Edited February 22, 2013 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brett 1,029 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 while the stat doesnt mean s***, i think he has done good. f*** the haters Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Axe Report post Posted February 22, 2013 As banged up as our defense is I don't think scratching him tonight isn't just giving him a rest. If he was paired with the lines that are on the ice the most I think we'd see a different picture. I could live without the plus minus stat and that stat really doesn't say a whole lot about anything. +1 for you though Axe for finally posting something reasonably positive, still not sure if it needed it's own thread though. What's my plus/minus, out of curiosity? Ha! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hiei 192 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 Pairing our offensive defencemen together is a bad idea except on the power play. As good as Rafalski was at scoring, remember how many times he used to pinch as the other team was chipping the puck past him on a breakout?Kindl is an offensive defenceman, and he should be paired with a shutdown guy who can keep the play ahead of him. Huskins does good with that.Speaking of our defencemen doing things they shouldn't....Kronwall anyone? I haven't seen him motor over someone yet this year. He's trying too hard to be Lidstrom when he never was. Apart from Karlsson in Ottawa, there isn't another lidstrom out there. Put him as the Defensive with Ericsson's offensive side. Lashoff seems to have lots of puck upside. Quincey used to be good when he HIT people. put them as the 3rd pairing out, and get quincey hitting again! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shoobiedoobin 138 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 Axe, stats lie. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Axe Report post Posted February 22, 2013 Axe, stats lie. I'm a +180 on my personal page. Is that good? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wingzman91 134 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 I'm a +180 on my personal page. Is that good? You are only + anything because there is no negative, see user blueadams if you want people's opinion of your opinions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haroldsnepsts 4,826 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 I agree, he does get caught out of position a lot. However, I'm not always too bummed about about it considering it's usually when he's trying to make plays. And on a team that in my opinion is often too passive, guys who try to make something happen will generally get more of a pass from me. Same goes for penalties. I get super pissed at hooking, tripping, etc. Or as I call them, the lazy penalties. But put someone hard into the glass and get an interference, or bury them into the net (both of which Kindl has done quite recently) and I'll give it a pass for the aggressiveness of it. None of which is to say that there isn't room to improve, but there are deficiencies that drive me crazy, and those that with a little more patience can be turned into positives. I agree about the penalty thing. I have no problem with him or Ericsson or almost anyone really on the Wings blueline if they take a penalty for crosschecking the spleen out of a guy in the crease. The Wings need more snarl, particularly in front of their own net. And honestly guys like Ericsson, Q and Kindl are going to get called more just because of them being big but lower end D men. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,803 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 I'm a +180 on my personal page. Is that good? Somebody got an avatar.............. that must be it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evilmrt 636 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 People hate on Kindl because he was a 1st rounder way back in 2005. He should have been much better than this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 3 penalties in the 1st period last game got him benched. Now it wasn't all on him. 1 pen was on him, second a weak call-but the is the state of the game, and the 3rd was a pen he had to take coming back on a breakway after whites stick broke. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MabusIncarnate 5,359 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 What's my plus/minus, out of curiosity? Ha! If the neg button still existed probably a solid -700 by now.. 1 Euro_Twins reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Euro_Twins 4,485 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 Lidstrom was a -2 last year. Would you take Kindl over Lidstrom? Didn't think so. Lidstrom was a +21 last year, he was a -2 in 2010/2011 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Axe Report post Posted February 22, 2013 If the neg button still existed probably a solid -700 by now.. Damn! Im like Lebda. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rrasco 1,312 Report post Posted February 22, 2013 If Stinky fish taco still had a profile you could see how negative an account could get, when there was still a neg button. Ah, those were the days. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
