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unsaddleddonald

Babs on last night's D: "...best we've had all year."

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Quincey +11, Kindl +9. The two best on the team. If these guys get bumped, then Babcock and/or Holland are stupid.

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Quincey +11, Kindl +9. The two best on the team. If these guys get bumped, then Babcock and/or Holland are stupid.

+/- means nothing...

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I think the most telling thing during Babcock's post-game interview was something along the lines of guys "bringing in energy, not sucking it out" and about a team sport "not being about you, but about the team". White really seems to be in the dog house.

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I think the most telling thing during Babcock's post-game interview was something along the lines of guys "bringing in energy, not sucking it out" and about a team sport "not being about you, but about the team". White really seems to be in the dog house.

it's always been all about White since he was in Toronto, he's an overgrown baby

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I don't like having small d man... I wouldn't give two s***s if colo and white never play again... Haskins is a better guy to step in if there's an injury or Kindl is playing poorly

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it's always been all about White since he was in Toronto, he's an overgrown baby

I agree. I took exception to Cleary's big mouth/comments during the lock-out, but White was yapping his mouth as well, which didn't sit well with me.

He would have lasted a week with Scotty Bowman. I think White will get a few more chances with Babs and if Bab's doesn't see a change....he's gone. And quickly. White is a veteran with a fairly solid reputation. I often hear other teams announcers and people involved in the league (Pierre McGuire referring to Wings veteran leadership, Esposito on Sirius, John Davidson interview on Columbus radio, to name a few) who speak very highly of White. So I believe there is a market out there for him....warranted or not. The way I see it is that he'll throw a fit and tank until he gets traded if Babs keeps him in the doghouse or even if Babs keeps benching him. This could get FUGLY!

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+/- means nothing...

It only means nothing to the people who want to ignore simple FACTS.

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I know his name's been mentioned in connection with Carolina, but I'm not sure where he'd fit on their blueline. I think the most management gets for him is a 2nd/3rd round pick, and that's being optimistic.

"It only means nothing to the people who want to ignore simple FACTS."

Ok, so 6 of the 10 top +/- players last year were Boston Bruins. I guess they were just individually awesome, and not part of a collective defensive juggernaut.

Edited by Jesusberg

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Quincey +11, Kindl +9. The two best on the team. If these guys get bumped, then Babcock and/or Holland are stupid.

+/- means nothing...

It only means nothing to the people who want to ignore simple FACTS.

Ok, so 6 of the 10 top +/- players last year were Boston Bruins. I guess they were just individually awesome, and not part of a collective defensive juggernaut.

Somebody has to be on the ice when goals are scored, right?

More interesting would be how those +/- numbers translate into goals and assists. Quincy: 1 point Kindl: 5.

oh! right... intangibles. :bye:

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It only means nothing to the people who want to ignore simple FACTS.

What facts exactly?

Plus-minus is a mostly useless statistic because there's too many random variables involved for it to demonstrated anything meaningful.

In 2011 Nick Lidstrom finished the season as a -2. Rafalski was the highest among D men with +11. So what does that mean? Rafi > Lidstrom?

Oh, that's also the year Lids won the Norris.

as a minus 2.

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Dudes are making valid points about over-valuing +/-

No one should be saying that a high +/- should be an automatic ticket to Awesomeland.

BUT, if Quincey was - 11 and Kindl was - 9, this would be used as LGW ammo to have them banished to Suck Island.

I base my opinion on what I see on the ice, and both guys are playing alright.

Z Winged Dangler and dobbles like this

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What facts exactly?

Plus-minus is a mostly useless statistic because there's too many random variables involved for it to demonstrated anything meaningful.

In 2011 Nick Lidstrom finished the season as a -2. Rafalski was the highest among D men with +11. So what does that mean? Rafi > Lidstrom?

Oh, that's also the year Lids won the Norris.

as a minus 2.

It's not a damning statistic but the fact is if you're a defensemen and you get a minus, there's at least a good chance that it was due to your poor defensive play. You can come up with a laundry list of reasons why it might not be. But at what point does the disparity between Kronwall's -6, or whatever it is now, (moving up from a shocking -10 before last week) and Quincey's +11 indicate that maybe someone is doing a better job at keeping the puck out of their own net?

And it's not a mathematical identity. 11 > -6; therefore, Quincey > Kronwall. But you can come to some qualitative intuitions based off an imprecise quantitive metric.

On the bigger picture. I think it was a mistake for Babs to say earlier in the year that the defense was Kronwall and then a committee. Kronwall's play was poorer for it and the committee showed no initiative. I haven't once in the past week seen Kronwall gesticulating and directing traffic in his own zone only to find that his man is now open and receiving a pass on route to scoring a goal.

Edited by Gusto
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I'll say it again: Somebody has to be on the ice when a goal is scored!

Kronwall as our number one defenseman (LIke Lidstrom before him) is going to be playing more minutes against other teams top lines and therefore more goals are likely to be scored. It's that simple.

I'm not trying to apologize for Kronwall's play by any stretch of the measure. Of recent, you must admit, it has been better, but +/- is such a fuzzy stat.

Edited by e_prime

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I'll say it again: Somebody has to be on the ice when a goal is scored!

Kronwall as our number one defenseman (LIke Lidstrom before him) is going to be playing more minutes against other teams top lines and therefore more goals are likely to be scored. It's that simple.

I'm not trying to apologize for Kronwall's play by any stretch of the measure. Of recent, you must admit, it has been better, but +/- is such a fuzzy stat.

But the opposition scoring a goal, and you being on the ice aren't independent events. Sometimes the former is going to be because of the latter. And like I said there are many reasons why the two events may be coincidental, but how big does a + need to get and how small does a - need to get before the coincidences get considerably overtaken by the quality of play.

Kronwall also plays a lot with our best players and so should be on the ice when we are scoring goals. The two might not cancel each other out, but the point is in large enough numbers +/- starts to mean something, and over ~20 games a difference of 17 is not insignificant.

+/- does piss me off a lot too. So often I catch myself thinking; "Pav is going to pick up a minus there for no reason and someone is going to use that to give a Selke to Kesler, Bergeron or Towes"

Edited by Gusto

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Nice thread. It's great to be reading about the positives of the Wings' D. With all of the hits it's taken in the last few years, their future looks better than I ever could have imagined.

Now all we need is for a few players to put the puck in the net!

notenough.gif

Edited by MidMichSteve

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It's not an entirely useless stat, but like any stat, it can be misleading. By its very nature, the plus will be more relevant for a forward, and the negative will be more accurate for a defenseman. But at any rate, it's not perfect. If you have a high plus you should probably have a lot of points for it to indicate you were involved. Quincey's high plus hides the fact that he has not been a factor in many goals, which can be seen in his points. So Quincey's unique situation shows us how to interpret a plus minus.

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It's not an entirely useless stat, but like any stat, it can be misleading. By its very nature, the plus will be more relevant for a forward, and the negative will be more accurate for a defenseman. But at any rate, it's not perfect. If you have a high plus you should probably have a lot of points for it to indicate you were involved. Quincey's high plus hides the fact that he has not been a factor in many goals, which can be seen in his points. So Quincey's unique situation shows us how to interpret a plus minus.

Or maybe his solid neutral zone play keeps the puck on the other side of the red line where the forwards can pass to each other and gobble up the points. If the stat was so useless, they wouldnt keep it. Your argument fails.

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Yes The D has been improving. It started over the weekend, which I mentioned at the time. Kindl and Huskins played well together. The thing with Kindl everyone needs to remember is, he is only 25, not even close to his prime yet. How good was Ericsson 3 years ago? he was still making tons of mistakes. In fact, I think Kindl may be ahead of Ericsson at the same age.

As a goup: Kronwall, Ericsson, Kindle, lashoff, Smith, and Q are pretty good athletes. 5 of the 6 under 30. 5 of the 6 over 6ft tall. The only negative is, they are all lefthanded. If we are able to swap 2 for equal RH Dmen, we would be set. But that is about all we need on the blueline right now. They are mobile, big, enough toughness, and enough offense.

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The thing with Kindl everyone needs to remember is, he is only 25, not even close to his prime yet. How good was Ericsson 3 years ago? he was still making tons of mistakes. In fact, I think Kindl may be ahead of Ericsson at the same age.

As a goup: Kronwall, Ericsson, Kindle, lashoff, Smith, and Q are pretty good athletes. 5 of the 6 under 30. 5 of the 6 over 6ft tall. The only negative is, they are all lefthanded. If we are able to swap 2 for equal RH Dmen, we would be set. But that is about all we need on the blueline right now. They are mobile, big, enough toughness, and enough offense.

Just turned 26 actually. He should be ahead. Problem is he should be a lot ahead. Should be better than Ericsson by now. This is his 6th pro season and 3rd in the NHL. It's only Ericsson's 4th full year in the NHL. You expect better development from a 19th pick.

We already have to worry about growing pains with Smith and Lashoff, and a #2 man who's really nothing more than a decent #4, and Q not scoring... I appreciate your optimistic viewpoint, and I'm not saying our current group is terrible, but I think we need more than a swap for a couple equal RH's in order to be set.

kipwinger likes this

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MLive

“So this is the best our team has looked, in my opinion, all year. Not necessarily the way we've played, but the way we've looked.''

Okay, Mike.

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Ericsson has become a beaut, can't rave enough about his play this year. But Kindl... I don't care if he's still developing, he doesn't belong on NHL ice right now.

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Ericsson has become a beaut, can't rave enough about his play this year. But Kindl... I don't care if he's still developing, he doesn't belong on NHL ice right now.

The ironic thing is that people were saying this 3 years ago about Ericsson.

number9 likes this

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