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evilzyme

Tatar frustrated; says he will only play in NHL when contract done

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Here's what I don't understand. Even if we cut all the fat from the forward corps. Let Cleary walk, buy out Bert or Sammy or both, and replace them will all the GR guys who deserve to come up, we're still one of the smallest and softest teams ever to be assembled. You can't have a top six of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Tatar, Brunner, Nyquist, Jarnkrok. They'll get forced to the outside, and wither away playing a perimeter game. So it's pretty obvious that at some point some of these guys are going to have to be moved out and replaced with gritty guys with size right?

Edited by kipwinger

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It's good Tatar said this. Hopefully it will force Holland's hand to work him into the lineup next year or lose him over the likes of Cleary. We already knew he was getting complacent, didn't a Euro team obtain his rights for after his contract with Detroit is up?

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Here's what I don't understand. Even if we cut all the fat from the forward corps. Let Cleary walk, buy out Bert or Sammy or both, and replace them will all the GR guys who deserve to come up, we're still one of the smallest and softest teams ever to be assembled. You can't have a top six of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Tatar, Brunner, Nyquist, Jarnkrok. They'll get forced to the outside, and wither away playing a perimeter game. So it's pretty obvious that at some point some of these guys are going to have to be moved out and replaced with gritty guys with size right?

Big bodies? Like Anthony Stewart (6' 3'', 230 lbs) who whiffed right past Holland's nose on the way through waivers? Oh yeah, he's right handed too.

esteef

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Here's what I don't understand. Even if we cut all the fat from the forward corps. Let Cleary walk, buy out Bert or Sammy or both, and replace them will all the GR guys who deserve to come up, we're still one of the smallest and softest teams ever to be assembled. You can't have a top six of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Tatar, Brunner, Nyquist, Jarnkrok. They'll get forced to the outside, and wither away playing a perimeter game. So it's pretty obvious that at some point some of these guys are going to have to be moved out and replaced with gritty guys with size right?

I think a guy like Sheahan could go a long way if he develops into a top 6 guy. However, I don't think our toughness has to come just from the top 6 guys in the forward group. Dmen can also contribute to toughness and size and are on the ice at the same time as your top 6. 3/4th lines also can grind when they are out there. Not every team has a Lucic/Perry for their top 6 that can do it all. Montreal has gotten along nicely with a group of small players this year.

Edit: Size and gritty dont usually translate to top 6 player all that often. These guys are usually special and are highly regarded by their team. Anthony Stewart isn't a top 6 player. Franzen has potential to be that guy and maybe thats what holland was banking on when he signed him.

Edited by dirtydangles

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I think a guy like Sheahan could go a long way if he develops into a top 6 guy. However, I don't think our toughness has to come just from the top 6 guys in the forward group. Dmen can also contribute to toughness and size and are on the ice at the same time as your top 6. 3/4th lines also can grind when they are out there. Not every team has a Lucic/Perry for their top 6 that can do it all. Montreal has gotten along nicely with a group of small players this year.

Edit: Size and gritty dont usually translate to top 6 player all that often. These guys are usually special and are highly regarded by their team. Anthony Stewart isn't a top 6 player. Franzen has potential to be that guy and maybe thats what holland was banking on when he signed him.

I like Sheahan fine, but he's another center. I'm sick of watching this team move centers to the wing and then complain that they don't shoot/score enough. I want actual wingers with some size, who can put the puck in the net. They don't have to score 40 goals a season. But if they could score 20-25 and do it from the crease/slot area then it would open up the ice for everyone else. Ideally they'd play well on the boards and hang onto the puck as well.

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I like Sheahan fine, but he's another center. I'm sick of watching this team move centers to the wing and then complain that they don't shoot/score enough. I want actual wingers with some size, who can put the puck in the net. They don't have to score 40 goals a season. But if they could score 20-25 and do it from the crease/slot area then it would open up the ice for everyone else. Ideally they'd play well on the boards and hang onto the puck as well.

I imagine I'll get blasted for even mentioning that Cleary didn't always suck, but essentially what you're really saying is that we need someone to replace Cleary from when he played well. Which he really did at one point. He was exactly that sort of player that we so badly need right now. Of all of the pieces we've lost, I think people fail to acknowledge that he didn't always suck, and his descent has actually hurt us a lot. Then add to that Bertuzzi's injury and Franzen's...whatever you want to call it....and I think you see where the problem stems from.

Edit: Oh, and Holmstrom.

Edited by Zetts

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I definitely wouldn't hate seeing a lineup like this next season.....

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Viktor Stalberg ($3.500m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Damien Brunner ($2.500m)
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / David Clarkson ($4.500m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.950m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Tomas Tatar ($0.950m)
Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m) / Joakim Andersson ($0.950m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)
Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) / Cory Emmerton ($0.533m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Kyle Quincey ($3.775m)
Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) / Jakub Kindl ($2.500m)
Danny DeKeyser ($1.350m) / Brian Lashoff ($0.725m)
Brendan Smith ($1.500m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($5.292m)
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)
OTHER
Buyout: Mikael Samuelsson ($0.000m)
Buyout: Carlo Colaiacovo ($0.000m)
Buried: Patrick Eaves ($0.275m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,437,879; BONUSES: $850,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,712,121

What would you all think of a lineup like that? Adding size and grit with stalberg and clarkson.

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The business side of the game should make Cleary clear waivers on his way to GR and Tatar should be a full time Wing. Anyone who thinks he can't make a bigger impact than Cleary, or anyone in our bottom 6 did not watch him while he was up, and that includes Wings' management. I'd be annoyed if I were him too.



I definitely wouldn't hate seeing a lineup like this next season.....

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Viktor Stalberg ($3.500m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Damien Brunner ($2.500m)
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / David Clarkson ($4.500m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.950m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Tomas Tatar ($0.950m)
Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m) / Joakim Andersson ($0.950m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)
Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) / Cory Emmerton ($0.533m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Kyle Quincey ($3.775m)
Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) / Jakub Kindl ($2.500m)
Danny DeKeyser ($1.350m) / Brian Lashoff ($0.725m)
Brendan Smith ($1.500m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($5.292m)
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)
OTHER
Buyout: Mikael Samuelsson ($0.000m)
Buyout: Carlo Colaiacovo ($0.000m)
Buried: Patrick Eaves ($0.275m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,437,879; BONUSES: $850,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,712,121

What would you all think of a lineup like that? Adding size and grit with stalberg and clarkson.

No way dude....we'd be a cup contender. :lol:

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Guest The Axe   
Guest The Axe

But Abdelkader has 9 goals.

Such crap this lineup is. That's why I don't like Holland. We don't need 29 average to above average players. We need 2 good centers, 2 good snipers, 2 good wingers, 6 young/fast/hungry guys.

Centers = We have Dats and Z.

Wingers = We have Franzen and Brunner.

Snipers = ???

Bottom 6 = Helm, Abdelkader, Andersson, Gus, Emdog, and Tatar

Fill Ins = Sheahan, Tootoo

There is no reason for Holland (or Babcock) to waste one more breath on Cleary, Bertuzzi, Samuelson, Colo, White, Eaves, Miller, or Filppula. Regardless of any value any of these players have, they do not help the Red Wings. We need GOALS.

Edited by The Axe

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The business side of the game should make Cleary clear waivers on his way to GR and Tatar should be a full time Wing. Anyone who thinks he can't make a bigger impact than Cleary, or anyone in our bottom 6 did not watch him while he was up, and that includes Wings' management. I'd be annoyed if I were him too.

No way dude....we'd be a cup contender. :lol:

Exactly! The way I look at it our defense could definitely use help, don't get me wrong. But they are young and with a full offseason I think they will be a lot better.

Looking up front we would be WAY better! You'd have Pav, Z, Mule, Clarkson, stalberg, brunner as your main top 6 forwards. That top 6 has size, speed, and great skill! A blend of everything.

Then when you look at the third line you got skill, speed, and a whole lot of hunger! Nyquist, Tatar, and helm would be the best 3rd line in hockey!

Then the 4th is solid with Anderson up the middle add in Abby and tootoo and it's very physical.

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I definitely wouldn't hate seeing a lineup like this next season.....

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER

My Custom Lineup

FORWARDS

Viktor Stalberg ($3.500m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Damien Brunner ($2.500m)

Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / David Clarkson ($4.500m)

Gustav Nyquist ($0.950m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Tomas Tatar ($0.950m)

Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m) / Joakim Andersson ($0.950m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)

Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) / Cory Emmerton ($0.533m) /

DEFENSEMEN

Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Kyle Quincey ($3.775m)

Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) / Jakub Kindl ($2.500m)

Danny DeKeyser ($1.350m) / Brian Lashoff ($0.725m)

Brendan Smith ($1.500m) /

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($5.292m)

Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)

OTHER

Buyout: Mikael Samuelsson ($0.000m)

Buyout: Carlo Colaiacovo ($0.000m)

Buried: Patrick Eaves ($0.275m)

------

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,437,879; BONUSES: $850,000

CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,712,121

What would you all think of a lineup like that? Adding size and grit with stalberg and clarkson.

If he's slotted properly, I'd want Samuelsson in there. Specifically, on the third line. Yeah, he can be frustrating, but he does score, he plays a simple game and is decent defensively. Getting a scoring push from our third line would be great. When we won the cup in '08, our third line a lot of the time was Sammy/Fil/Hudler. It was probably the best third line in the league.

Edit: And hopefully he can stay healthy. WTF is up with that this year? I don't recall him having injuries like that when he was here before.

Edited by Zetts

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If he's slotted properly, I'd want Samuelsson in there. Specifically, on the third line. Yeah, he can be frustrating, but he does score, he plays a simple game and is decent defensively. Getting a scoring push from our third line would be great. When we won the cup in '08, our third line a lot of the time was Sammy/Fil/Hudler. It was probably the best third line in the league.

So you'd rather have Sammy at the expense of stalberg/ clarkson/ nyquist/ Tatar? I don't think you'll see too many people agreeing with you on that. Plus having a line of goose- helm- Tatar will be the best 3rd line in hockey

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So you'd rather have Sammy at the expense of stalberg/ clarkson/ nyquist/ Tatar? I don't think you'll see too many people agreeing with you on that. Plus having a line of goose- helm- Tatar will be the best 3rd line in hockey

No, I don't see it that way. There's a few different things that lead to me to want to keep him:

1. Brunner is very much an unknown. Right now Samuelsson would be better than him. I wouldn't mind seeing Nyquist in the top 6 and a third line of Sammy-Helm-Tatar. Or something to that effect.

2. Tootoo isn't someone who will play every night.

3. If this season is any indication, there will be plenty of injuries.

I'd hardly be heartbroken if he left, but I'm just saying it might be worth considering keeping him around.

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I imagine I'll get blasted for even mentioning that Cleary didn't always suck, but essentially what you're really saying is that we need someone to replace Cleary from when he played well. Which he really did at one point. He was exactly that sort of player that we so badly need right now. Of all of the pieces we've lost, I think people fail to acknowledge that he didn't always suck, and his descent has actually hurt us a lot. Then add to that Bertuzzi's injury and Franzen's...whatever you want to call it....and I think you see where the problem stems from.

Edit: Oh, and Holmstrom.

I actually agree. Cleary was a very legit second line winger on this team a few years ago. His age and knee troubles have taken his game away from him, but it's not like it was never there. Back then he made the wings hard to play against, he was tenacious, he went to the net, he had enough offense in him to be a credible threat. Even though we didn't win in 09, I liked the composition of that forward corps a lot better than I like what we've got going on now. I'd like to see a high end goal scorer for Dats (a Gaborik/Hossa type of guy) and a couple of grinding type guys that will give you 15-25 goals and will be hard to play against. Then role with...

Goal Scorer-Dats-Grinder

Grinder-Z-Franzen

Nyquist-Flip-Brunner

Tootoo-Helm-Abby/Miller

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No, I don't see it that way. There's a few different things that lead to me to want to keep him:

1. Brunner is very much an unknown. Right now Samuelsson would be better than him. I wouldn't mind seeing Nyquist in the top 6 and a third line of Sammy-Helm-Tatar. Or something to that effect.

2. Tootoo isn't someone who will play every night.

3. If this season is any indication, there will be plenty of injuries.

I'd hardly be heartbroken if he left, but I'm just saying it might be worth considering keeping him around.

So what do you propose to do with brunner. And just curious but why can't tootoo play every night? I honestly for the life of me can't understand why babs healthy scratches him.

And ya I get that we have had a lot of injuries and he is a good insurance policy. But we can't afford to have the lineup that I suggested with also including Sammy. We just don't have the cap space for that.

Would you lose brunner for Sammy? Cause I sure as hell would not!

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So what do you propose to do with brunner. And just curious but why can't tootoo play every night? I honestly for the life of me can't understand why babs healthy scratches him.

And ya I get that we have had a lot of injuries and he is a good insurance policy. But we can't afford to have the lineup that I suggested with also including Sammy. We just don't have the cap space for that.

Would you lose brunner for Sammy? Cause I sure as hell would not!

I'll start off by saying that I don't think we'll aquire both (or likely either) of the players you mentioned, just because we haven't exactly had luck around here with our free agent wishes. In such a case, it's not so much of an issue anyways.

But on your roster, the numbers aren't too far off for Samuelsson working. Your roster had $1.7M in cap space and I don't see Brunner getting $2.5M. I'm also iffy about Bertuzzi returning. The fact is, prior to last season, Samuelsson had 4 consecutive seasons with a run of 40, 40 53 and 50 points. And he's decent defensively. Brunner isnt' so great defensively and it's very uncertain how he is offensively. He should probably work in from the fourth line (Tootoo's spot) and maybe get higher playing time in the case of injuries.

If we had to choose between keeping one or the other, I *might* come around to your side on keeping him over Sammy, but it's definitely not as clear-cut as you make it out to be.

Tootoo isn't an every night player because frankly he's just not that good. He brings some energy, which is nice. I like having that type of player. But he's not consistent enough, or smart enough with the puck, etc. He's not a regular.

Edited by Zetts

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Here's what I don't understand. Even if we cut all the fat from the forward corps. Let Cleary walk, buy out Bert or Sammy or both, and replace them will all the GR guys who deserve to come up, we're still one of the smallest and softest teams ever to be assembled. You can't have a top six of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Tatar, Brunner, Nyquist, Jarnkrok. They'll get forced to the outside, and wither away playing a perimeter game. So it's pretty obvious that at some point some of these guys are going to have to be moved out and replaced with gritty guys with size right?

I've been meaning to point this out.

Realistically, we're not losing Cleary, Bertuzzi, and Samuelsson all in one offseason - if only because, like we're saying, we'd have no size in the top six.

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Guest DeGraa55   
Guest DeGraa55

Watching Dan Cleary play instead of him makes me sick to my stomach, every game.

I couldn't agree more. And cleary isn't the only one.

What I don't get is Holland and Babcock say something along the lines of the best will play. But they keep throwing cleary and other junk out there and not Nyquist and/or Tatar.

No, I don't see it that way. There's a few different things that lead to me to want to keep him:

1. Brunner is very much an unknown. Right now Samuelsson would be better than him. I wouldn't mind seeing Nyquist in the top 6 and a third line of Sammy-Helm-Tatar. Or something to that effect.

2. Tootoo isn't someone who will play every night.

3. If this season is any indication, there will be plenty of injuries.

I'd hardly be heartbroken if he left, but I'm just saying it might be worth considering keeping him around.

Old and injury prone is so much better. I wish our team was full of berts sammies and helms.

No Sammy is not better than anyone on this team. All he is doing is wasting money and when he is actually healthy wasting a roster spot a young guy deserves. THE INLY THING he and Bert bring is size but were better of finding that via trade or fa. We need size but size that's reliable and young.

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What I don't get is Holland and Babcock say something along the lines of the best will play. But they keep throwing cleary and other junk out there and not Nyquist and/or Tatar.

Exactly! Even last night, nyquist was the best player on the ice last night! Yet he still doesn't get to play with our best players. Don't even get me started about Tatar! He was so good when he was up! Sickening to see guys like cleary playing ahead of these two

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SIDE NOTE:

My understanding is Lucic is in Julien's doghouse. Like, fourth-line doghouse.

Just sayin'.

Haha, keep dreaming. We'll be in the same division soon enough and nobody wants to play against that guy. I'd love him in the Winged Wheel though. Pretty much the only guy in the league that could deal effectively with Backes (whom I also would love to have). Damn.

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