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evilzyme

Tatar frustrated; says he will only play in NHL when contract done

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Nyq Dats Tats

Filp Z Brunner

Franzen Helm Bert

Abby Anders Eaves/Toots

Those lines would be a disaster.

First of all who on those top two lines is going to win the board battles? Who's going to the tough areas and is able to stay there? Who's opening up space with physical play? Putting the top 6 danglers on the top two lines is not going to equate to a more productive offence. Do guys like Tatar and Zetts have grit and play bigger than they are? Sure but it's not enough when you look at the line ups they would be matched up against. They would be eaten alive. We need a big body on those lines. Sadly Franzen and Abdelkader are our best options at the moment. Our only option thanks to Holland and Injuries.

Second of all, one of our biggest problems has been a lack of net front presence and too many perimeter shots. Those top two lines would only add to those problems.

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Those lines would be a disaster.

First of all who on those top two lines is going to win the board battles? Who's going to the tough areas and is able to stay there? Who's opening up space with physical play? Putting the top 6 danglers on the top two lines is not going to equate to a more productive offence. Do guys like Tatar and Zetts have grit and play bigger than they are? Sure but it's not enough when you look at the line ups they would be matched up against. They would be eaten alive. We need a big body on those lines. Sadly Franzen and Abdelkader are our best options at the moment. Our only option thanks to Holland and Injuries.

Second of all, one of our biggest problems has been a lack of net front presence and too many perimeter shots. Those top two lines would only add to those problems.

Disasterous? As oppossed to the success of our current 10th place standing and 3-5-2 in our last ten?

I understand what you're saying, completely. I just don't agree with it. Nyquist and Tatar have carried the water in GR; it's time to turn them loose with Datsyuk and enable them to take it to the next level. They know their way around in the corners.

Abby and Cleary in the top 6 hasn't gotten us into playoff standing, and is not going to bring the Cup home. We've got a better chance riding Young Guns.

Edited by T.Low

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Here's what I don't understand. Even if we cut all the fat from the forward corps. Let Cleary walk, buy out Bert or Sammy or both, and replace them will all the GR guys who deserve to come up, we're still one of the smallest and softest teams ever to be assembled. You can't have a top six of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Tatar, Brunner, Nyquist, Jarnkrok. They'll get forced to the outside, and wither away playing a perimeter game. So it's pretty obvious that at some point some of these guys are going to have to be moved out and replaced with gritty guys with size right?

Do you remember the time when:

- Lashoff played big minutes with Kronwall

- Brunner played with Zetterberg

- Franzen played with Datsjuk

- Quincey was injured

- Tatar was in our NHL roster

...tell you what? This was the time when Wings played successfully. Plus see how well the Canuck's played this season despite just one of their bottom six has more size than Zetterberg. We beat them twice, but sure not because of our toughness :lol:

Anyway, we've a lot of young talents and if we let go our useless defensemen (Ericsson, Quincey) and buy out Samuelsson we would have enough cap space to create offensive lines like that:

Tatar, Datsjuk, Jurco

Nyquist, Zetterberg, Brunner

Franzen, Filppula, Bertuzzi

Miller, Helm, Cleary

Not bad, eh? Even that 4th would create a lot of offense. And if one of the younger guy's struggling, we simply switch him with one of our veteran 3rd liners. No problem. I'm sure there's enough size in these lines. Especially if we hold Abby, Eaves or Tootoo as scratches and maybe give Sheahan another chance. The rest of our Prospects will maybe not be ready next season but that doesn't matter.

Disasterous? As oppossed to the success of our current 10th place standing and 3-5-2 in our last ten?

I understand what you're saying, completely. I just don't agree with it. Nyquist and Tatar have carried the water in GR; it's time to turn them loose with Datsyuk and enable them to take it to the next level. They know their way around in the corners.

Abby and Cleary in the top 6 hasn't gotten us into playoff standing, and is not going to bring the Cup home. We've got a better chance riding Young Guns.

Not bad, I agree. But despite the fact that Tatar plays very hard, you can't pair Datsjuk with Tatar and Nyquist. That would not work. Datsjuk needs Franzen or an other guy with size who drives to the net and creates some space for him. That's a fact and that's why he needs a guy like Jurco, Franzen or Bertuzzi.

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Exactly! The way I look at it our defense could definitely use help, don't get me wrong. But they are young and with a full offseason I think they will be a lot better.

Looking up front we would be WAY better! You'd have Pav, Z, Mule, Clarkson, stalberg, brunner as your main top 6 forwards. That top 6 has size, speed, and great skill! A blend of everything.

Then when you look at the third line you got skill, speed, and a whole lot of hunger! Nyquist, Tatar, and helm would be the best 3rd line in hockey!

Then the 4th is solid with Anderson up the middle add in Abby and tootoo and it's very physical.

Stalberg is also over 6 feet as well if i'm not mistaken, about the same size as Clarkson. I like those 2 cause Stalberg is fast as s*** and creates a lot of fast break scoring chances as a result. He'd also be great with Goose. Clarkson would be the perfect addition for Dats and Z. Tough as nails, can shoot and he's got skill around the net. He loves getting his nose dirty around the net.

And I agree, I want Sammy and his sore nipples bought out and Cleary not re-signed. White is as good as gone. That 3rd line of Tatar-Helm-Nyquist would be better and faster than Huds-Flip-Sammy and a hell of a lot more exciting to watch. And with Flips production, if he wants anymore than 3.5 mil (for a player type we have WAY too many of) take a walk. Like I said before, have fun in Calgary with Huds and enjoy obscurity.

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Stalberg is also over 6 feet as well if i'm not mistaken, about the same size as Clarkson. I like those 2 cause Stalberg is fast as s*** and creates a lot of fast break scoring chances as a result. He'd also be great with Goose. Clarkson would be the perfect addition for Dats and Z. Tough as nails, can shoot and he's got skill around the net. He loves getting his nose dirty around the net.

And I agree, I want Sammy and his sore nipples bought out and Cleary not re-signed. White is as good as gone. That 3rd line of Tatar-Helm-Nyquist would be better and faster than Huds-Flip-Sammy and a hell of a lot more exciting to watch. And with Flips production, if he wants anymore than 3.5 mil (for a player type we have WAY too many of) take a walk. Like I said before, have fun in Calgary with Huds and enjoy obscurity.

Exactly! Stalberg and clarkson are perfect fits for are top six. Both add things that we don't currently have. As well they are good enough offensively to play with guys like pavel and Z.

I dunno about you guys but with those forwards we would have a legit chance at a cup even with our defense. We are keeping pucks out of our net which is great to see. All we need is that offensive punch.

For around 8 million you bring in clarkson and stalberg! Lose fils 3.5, clearys 2.5, whites 2.5ish, colo's 2.5, Sammy's 3, millers 1, and eaves 1.2. Sorry don't know exact cap numbers!

Anyway you fill those spots with your youth. Nyquist for 950K, Tatar 950K, lashoff 850K, and give necessary raises to kindl and smith.

This is what good teams do. They have good top six players and fill the rest of there lineup with good young players on cheap contracts. We need to start doing this if we want to contend for cups IMO.

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Maybe thats why Kenny said he's not planning on signing anyone else this offseason. Cleary can go and our passion stays. He showed lot's of heart and if I was him id say the exact thing. Hockey isn't business when he see's himself playing in GR and a guy like cleary getting at some points this season, top 6 minutes....joke and thats my biggest complaint of thy coaching staff this season. The leafs weren't afraid to send down Connolly and keep Kadri...why are we so nice.


being nice n' patient could cost us our playoff streak

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I don't think size is the issue up front, I think that (to borrow from another thread) the top 6 lack "offensive creativity". I understand what Babcock's tried to do with Abdelkader (puck recovery... ala Saad in Chicago), but it just doesn't seem to be working out. I think we kind of have to wait and see what happens here, but Tatar should at least be on that 3rd line LW when next year starts. Depending on what happens will Filppula and Brunner, we'll have to see.

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I think we need a more size up front especially on the wings. If Flip wants more than 5 mil a season then Kenny should let him walk. In UFA Kenny will have to overpay to land 2 young power forwards in Clarkson and Horton. Are these guys worth paying? I'd sooner overpay them than I would Flip. I would get rid of Bert, Sammy, Cola, Cleary, White and Miller. Miller could be re-signed but I don't see Kenny giving him a spot over Emmerton and Andersson. Clarkson and Horton will be overpaid in UFA. Supply and demand will jack their prices up. Even with Horton having a down season with a history of concussions, he will be highly sought after. Are these guys worth giving up this much cap space? We already have Dats and Hank down the middle. Plus a healthy (hopefully) Helm. The EAT line looks good on paper at least. What do you think?

.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / David Clarkson ($5.500m)
Nathan Horton ($5.500m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Damien Brunner ($2.750m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.950m)/ Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Tomas Tatar ($0.840m)
Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)
Joakim Andersson ($0.800m) / Cory Emmerton ($0.533m)
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Kyle Quincey ($3.775m) / Brendan Smith ($0.950m)
Danny DeKeyser ($1.350m) / Jakub Kindl ($0.950m)
Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($5.292m)
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,177,879; BONUSES: $1,010,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $2,132,121

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I think we need a more size up front especially on the wings. If Flip wants more than 5 mil a season then Kenny should let him walk. In UFA Kenny will have to overpay to land 2 young power forwards in Clarkson and Horton. Are these guys worth paying? I'd sooner overpay them than I would Flip. I would get rid of Bert, Sammy, Cola, Cleary, White and Miller. Miller could be re-signed but I don't see Kenny giving him a spot over Emmerton and Andersson. Clarkson and Horton will be overpaid in UFA. Supply and demand will jack their prices up. Even with Horton having a down season with a history of concussions, he will be highly sought after. Are these guys worth giving up this much cap space? We already have Dats and Hank down the middle. Plus a healthy (hopefully) Helm. The EAT line looks good on paper at least. What do you think?

.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER

My Custom Lineup

FORWARDS

Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / David Clarkson ($5.500m)

Nathan Horton ($5.500m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Damien Brunner ($2.750m)

Gustav Nyquist ($0.950m)/ Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Tomas Tatar ($0.840m)

Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)

Joakim Andersson ($0.800m) / Cory Emmerton ($0.533m)

DEFENSEMEN

Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)

Kyle Quincey ($3.775m) / Brendan Smith ($0.950m)

Danny DeKeyser ($1.350m) / Jakub Kindl ($0.950m)

Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) /

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($5.292m)

Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)

------

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,177,879; BONUSES: $1,010,000

CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $2,132,121

Drop Horton. Resign flip for less than 5mill. Then pay Kindl and Smith more. Kindl as been our 2/3 best dman. the guy is getting a 3 year deal for 2mill per probably.

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I don't think size is the issue up front, I think that (to borrow from another thread) the top 6 lack "offensive creativity". I understand what Babcock's tried to do with Abdelkader (puck recovery... ala Saad in Chicago), but it just doesn't seem to be working out. I think we kind of have to wait and see what happens here, but Tatar should at least be on that 3rd line LW when next year starts. Depending on what happens will Filppula and Brunner, we'll have to see.

It's not just size, it's size and skill combined. Abby's got all the size you'd ever need but he doesn't know how to finish. Holmer could finish, Ryan Smyth can finish...Abby can't. He's got no knack for scoring at this level. What we need is a couple bigger bodies who know how to finish on a play. Guys like Horton, Stafford, Clarkson, Paajarvi, come to mind. They've got the size and skill to score down low, which is something we're sorely missing. Ideally I'd like a sniper too, and I think it would help with a lot of things, but until we get a legit net front presence on each of the top two lines I think we'll be kept entirely to the perimeter and therefore easily kept off the scoreboard in tight games.

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Exactly! Stalberg and clarkson are perfect fits for are top six. Both add things that we don't currently have. As well they are good enough offensively to play with guys like pavel and Z.

I dunno about you guys but with those forwards we would have a legit chance at a cup even with our defense. We are keeping pucks out of our net which is great to see. All we need is that offensive punch.

For around 8 million you bring in clarkson and stalberg! Lose fils 3.5, clearys 2.5, whites 2.5ish, colo's 2.5, Sammy's 3, millers 1, and eaves 1.2. Sorry don't know exact cap numbers!

Anyway you fill those spots with your youth. Nyquist for 950K, Tatar 950K, lashoff 850K, and give necessary raises to kindl and smith.

This is what good teams do. They have good top six players and fill the rest of there lineup with good young players on cheap contracts. We need to start doing this if we want to contend for cups IMO.

You are making way too much sense.

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Here's what I don't understand. Even if we cut all the fat from the forward corps. Let Cleary walk, buy out Bert or Sammy or both, and replace them will all the GR guys who deserve to come up, we're still one of the smallest and softest teams ever to be assembled. You can't have a top six of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Tatar, Brunner, Nyquist, Jarnkrok. They'll get forced to the outside, and wither away playing a perimeter game. So it's pretty obvious that at some point some of these guys are going to have to be moved out and replaced with gritty guys with size right?

My prediction: only one of Tartar and Nyquist will become permanent Red Wings. The other will be dealt.

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Disasterous? As oppossed to the success of our current 10th place standing and 3-5-2 in our last ten?

I understand what you're saying, completely. I just don't agree with it. Nyquist and Tatar have carried the water in GR; it's time to turn them loose with Datsyuk and enable them to take it to the next level. They know their way around in the corners.

Abby and Cleary in the top 6 hasn't gotten us into playoff standing, and is not going to bring the Cup home. We've got a better chance riding Young Guns.

Disastrous was maybe a little dramatic but I do feel every line needs at least some physical presence. I do agree with you that Nyquist and Tatar have proven themselves enough in GR and deserve to be here full-time. I would just suggest a bit more balance through the lines. Something along the lines of this for this year and next year: (Assuming no buyouts or additions and resigning Brunner)

Tatar Datsyuk Franzen Bertuzzi Datsyuk Nyquist

Cleary/Abby Zetts Nyquist Tatar Zetts Sammy

Filppula Andersson Brunner Andersson Franzen Brunner

Mil/Eav/Emm Abby Tootoo Abby Helm Tootoo

Miller, Eaves, Emmerton rotating in.

3 fairly balanced scoring lines and a pretty good checking line. With the injuries to Bertuzzi and Sammy I feel either Cleary or Abby is forced into a higher role like we've seen most of the season.

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My prediction: only one of Tartar and Nyquist will become permanent Red Wings. The other will be dealt.

I agree. But I don't think it will make too much of a difference because at least in the short to medium term all of our prospects are undersize, pass first, perimeter guys, and most of them are centers or converted centers. I can't wait for a couple of years when we've got actual wingers with a little size (like Jurco, Frk, and Tvrdon) ready to be inserted into the lineup.

Edited by kipwinger
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Clowe - Zetterberg - Brunner

Tatar - Dats - Clarkson

Nyquist - Helm - Abdelkader

Miller - Andersson - Tootoo

Kronwall - E

Smith - DeKe

Q - McQuaid

Lashoff

Franzen, Eaves and CocaCola gets traded.

Flip, White and Cleary BYE BYE.

Sammy and Big Bert finished.

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Stalberg is also over 6 feet as well if i'm not mistaken, about the same size as Clarkson. I like those 2 cause Stalberg is fast as s*** and creates a lot of fast break scoring chances as a result.

Stalberg is a soft player who does not use his size. He is fast, yes, but he doesn't create nearly as many chances as you think. He seems to be a perennial 20-goal scorer at best.

Edited by Crymson
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Disastrous was maybe a little dramatic but I do feel every line needs at least some physical presence. I do agree with you that Nyquist and Tatar have proven themselves enough in GR and deserve to be here full-time. I would just suggest a bit more balance through the lines. Something along the lines of this for this year and next year: (Assuming no buyouts or additions and resigning Brunner)

Tatar Datsyuk Franzen Bertuzzi Datsyuk Nyquist

Cleary/Abby Zetts Nyquist Tatar Zetts Sammy

Filppula Andersson Brunner Andersson Franzen Brunner

Mil/Eav/Emm Abby Tootoo Abby Helm Tootoo

Miller, Eaves, Emmerton rotating in.

3 fairly balanced scoring lines and a pretty good checking line. With the injuries to Bertuzzi and Sammy I feel either Cleary or Abby is forced into a higher role like we've seen most of the season.

I'd switch Tatar and Nyquist. But I do kind of like the lines.

Also why does everyone hate Abby. He is not that bad. For whatever reason him, emmerton, kindl get/got so much hate for no reason. Its not abbys fault we got no big guys for the top lines. Abby is a second or third line guy not a top line so he as well as even fil or forced to play OUT OF POSITION.

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Stalberg is a soft player who does not use his size. He is fast, yes, but he doesn't create nearly as many chances as you think. He seems to be a perennial 20-goal scorer at best.

I've watched probably 20 Hawks games this year and even more last year and I completely disagree with you. He's a lot better than his days in Toronto showed. I'd take him over that meathead Clowe any day of the week. And I'd take a 20 goal season over most of what we have right now.

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Maybe thats why Kenny said he's not planning on signing anyone else this offseason. Cleary can go and our passion stays. He showed lot's of heart and if I was him id say the exact thing. Hockey isn't business when he see's himself playing in GR and a guy like cleary getting at some points this season, top 6 minutes....joke and thats my biggest complaint of thy coaching staff this season. The leafs weren't afraid to send down Connolly and keep Kadri...why are we so nice.

being nice n' patient could cost us our playoff streak

Connolly had played 1 year for Toronto. This is Cleary's 8th with Detroit. Connolly accomplished nothing in Toronto, not the case for Cleary. I'm not saying that I'm thrilled with Cleary's play this season or last. Or that I think he shouldn't have sat some games this year in favor of others. But he has earned more loyalty and second chance here than Connolly has in Toronto. Your comparison is not apples and apples.

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My prediction: only one of Tartar and Nyquist will become permanent Red Wings. The other will be dealt.

If they are still with us after the draft both will be in Detroit

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