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Or maybe don't make such radical conclusions on an 11-game sample size?

I'm not. Helm has never produced consistent offense his entire career. So why in hell would you put him on a scoring line wing...ya know, the position most directly responsible for scoring goals?

Nah man. Teach 'em to shoot right first, then make them play left wing.

While we're at it we can make Brendan Smith a power forward and Jonas Gustavsson a defenseman! It's a free for all!

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I agree. I was going to go back and say that Babcock AND HOLLAND were obsessed with the idea, but you had already quoted it so I didn't. But you're right. I've been clamoring for Holland to trade some of these guys for a winger or two for a while.

What's not to like about 4 assists (2 on the PP) in 11 games from a top six winger? It's not like their job is to put the puck in the net or anything lol.

He played one game at wing so those totals are not from time as a top six winger.

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I'm not. Helm has never produced consistent offense his entire career. So why in hell would you put him on a scoring line wing...ya know, the position most directly responsible for scoring goals?

Quite possibly for the same reason Abdelkader plays in the top 6.

If you haven't noticed by now, Babcock likes to have a digger/forchecker on his top lines.

Helps to roll 4 lines. This is nothing new.

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Quite possibly for the same reason Abdelkader plays in the top 6.

If you haven't noticed by now, Babcock likes to have a digger/forchecker on his top lines.

Helps to roll 4 lines. This is nothing new.

Yeah but Abdlekader is a big man. Helm isn't.

I agree with rolling four lines and I think having Helm and Franzen on the third line helps make this happen.

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Quite possibly for the same reason Abdelkader plays in the top 6.

If you haven't noticed by now, Babcock likes to have a digger/forchecker on his top lines.

Helps to roll 4 lines. This is nothing new.

Especially in the salary cap era. (Let me know if this comment actually needs explaination)

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Yeah but Abdlekader is a big man. Helm isn't.

I agree with rolling four lines and I think having Helm and Franzen on the third line helps make this happen.

I don't care how big Helm is. He's one of the best forcheckers on the team and is an absolute puck hound.

In order for Franzen and Helm to be on the 3rd line, we need Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco or Weiss to truly grab those second line spots.

They have yet to prove that level consistently without being a liability at times so we go with the next best player who's not a liability. ie. Helm.

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Kip, we clearly agree that he isn't playing the role he should be. We both think he should remain in the bottom six. However, I think he would be more effective on the wing rather than center in the bottom six... A third line of Helm - Sheahan and whoever else would be great in my opinion...

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THE KID LINE is NOT READY to EXCELL as a 2ND LINE.

Who's with me on this?

Yes, they can compete and hold their own, but they are still not ready to be counted on for scoring against 2nd pairing D, etc.

If they stay as a 2nd line, (ok, namely Tats and Shea) we will continue to experience a lot of one goal wins/losses.

Conversely, THE KID LINE will be an awesome 3rd line, providing energy, scoring, and all round "holy f***". They can push us over the top PROVIDED we get a legit 2c to slot between Franzen and NyQ, as Weiss was spossed to be.

We need to keep the 1st line together to continue their awesomeness (ZDA) and the Kid Line as 3rd to be awesome, and stick Helm in to hold the fort as 2c until...1) we get someone else, 2) Weiss gets his nads and mojo back, 3) Helm becomes the "Never saw this coming" story of the year.

Edited by T.Low
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I don't care how big Helm is. He's one of the best forcheckers on the team and is an absolute puck hound.

In order for Franzen and Helm to be on the 3rd line, we need Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco or Weiss to truly grab those second line spots.

They have yet to prove that level consistently without being a liability at times so we go with the next best player who's not a liability. ie. Helm.

Abdlekader is bigger, plays bigger, and looks at least for now like he has more going on offensively.

I love Helm, but 10 times out of 10 I'm putting him here:

Top 6

Helm

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Abdlekader is bigger, plays bigger, and looks at least for now like he has more going on offensively.

I love Helm, but 10 times out of 10 I'm putting him here:

Top 6

Helm

Oh I agree with you Rick on Helm not ideally being in the top 6.

I just think he's the "lesser of evils" until those other guys can truly earn the right to play there consistently.

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Oh I agree with you Rick on Helm not ideally being in the top 6.

I just think he's the "lesser of evils" until those other guys can truly earn the right to play there consistently.

Yeah. One thing to remember is that this team has a legit top line and a legit 4th line. The 2nd and third lines are quasi/interchangable. Tonight, for example, Helm's line could get more icetime than Sheahan's.

Ultimately though, the problem I have is that if this team were ever to get a legit 2nd line center, a Kesler type guy, the guy Weiss was supposed to be, where in the hell does Helm go? The only place you could put him is on the 4th line.

Zetterberg - Datsuk - Abdlekader

Franzen - Legit 2nd Line Center - Nyquist

Tatar - Sheahan - Jurco

Miller - Helm - Andersson

Glendenning

To me, he's under-used in this role. But that's the only place for him.

One of these years, Kenny has to make some trades, especially with Mantha coming (hopefully) and maybe Pulkinnen next year.

Edited by rick zombo

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Yeah. One thing to remember is that this team has a legit top line and a legit 4th line. The 2nd and third lines are quasi/interchangable. Tonight, for example, Helm's line could get more icetime than Sheahan's.

Ultimately though, the problem I have is that if this team were ever to get a legit 2nd line center, a Kesler type guy, the guy Weiss was supposed to be, where in the hell does Helm go? The only place you could put him is on the 4th line.

Zetterberg - Datsuk - Abdlekader

Franzen - Legit 2nd Line Center - Nyquist

Tatar - Sheahan - Jurco

Miller - Helm - Andersson

Glendenning

To me, he's under-used in this role. But that's the only place for him.

One of these years, Kenny has to make some trades, especially with Mantha coming (hopefully) and maybe Pulkinnen next year.

Do you really see that happening anytime soon though? You can't operate from a what-if mindset.

The only way that 2nd line center gets filled is through internal means. Not through trade. Especially with Weiss still on the payroll.

We'll do with what we have. Which is a top heavy offense with young, unproven secondary scoring and an abundance of proven bottom 6 talent.

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Quite possibly for the same reason Abdelkader plays in the top 6.

If you haven't noticed by now, Babcock likes to have a digger/forchecker on his top lines.

Helps to roll 4 lines. This is nothing new.

When Helm starts producing like Abby I'll stop saying it's a bad idea.

Ultimately though, the problem I have is that if this team were ever to get a legit 2nd line center, a Kesler type guy, the guy Weiss was supposed to be, where in the hell does Helm go? The only place you could put him is on the 4th line.

Or trade him for something you need. He's got some value. Every other team in the history of professional sports trades the thing they've got too much of, for the thing they don't have enough of. Why is it that we feel the need to cram guys into roles they're unsuited for rather than move them for the things we need?

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I'm not. Helm has never produced consistent offense his entire career. So why in hell would you put him on a scoring line wing...ya know, the position most directly responsible for scoring goals?

Some here say the same about Franzen. ;) No one is opting for a free for all here, but as long as our supposed second line center is out we have to make compromises and play guys on positions that aren't optimal. Helm isn't the perfect winger for sure but he should be better than Shehan who imho isn't ready to center a top 6 line yet.

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He played one game at wing so those totals are not from time as a top six winger.

So he can't even produce offense consistently at his natural position? All the more reason to never let Darren Helm anywhere near the top six...ever. He certainly hasn't been playing on the third line (where he should be).

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Some here say the same about Franzen. ;) No one is opting for a free for all here, but as long as our supposed second line center is out we have to make compromises and play guys on positions that aren't optimal. Helm isn't the perfect winger for sure but he should be better than Shehan who imho isn't ready to center a top 6 line yet.

Whoever says that Franzen doesn't produce consistent offense is ******* retarded. That's the only thing he's done consistently his entire career. Barring injury you'll get 20+ goals, and 40-50 pts. out of him like clock work.

If you ever encounter someone who says Franzen doesn't produce consistent offense you should hit them in the head with a hammer.

Conversely if you meet someone who says Helm doesn't produce consistent offense you should get them to tell you more things that are incredibly obvious and quantifiable statistically.

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So he can't even produce offense consistently at his natural position? All the more reason to never let Darren Helm anywhere near the top six...ever. He certainly hasn't been playing on the third line (where he should be).

Ok so who exactly IS putting up points to justify a top 6 position over Helm. Don't see many guys stepping up...

Aside from the obvious guys...

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Ok so who exactly IS putting up points to justify a top 6 position over Helm. Don't see many guys stepping up...

I know this is a stretch, but here goes.

Why don't we leave the top line like it is. And then pair Darren Helm with one or two of the 10,000,000 high quality NHL prospects we've got (that we don't have room for) and trade them for a second line center.

Then you could have

Z-Dats-Abby

Franzen-2nd line center-Nyquist

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Miller-Glendening-Andersson.

Jason Spezza and Ryan Kesler got moved for offers that we could have matched or beaten and we didn't make offers (Kesler had Detroit on his short list at last years' deadline, but not after we fell flat in the playoffs). Not saying it had to be one of those guys...but lets not pretend like it's impossible to trade for a center.

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Whoever says that Franzen doesn't produce consistent offense isf****** retarded. That's the only thing he's done consistently his entire career. Barring injury you'll get 20+ goals, and 40-50 pts. out of him like clock work.

If you ever encounter someone who says Franzen doesn't produce consistent offense you should hit them in the head with a hammer.

Conversely if you meet someone who says Helm doesn't produce consistent offense you should get them to tell you more things that are incredibly obvious and quantifiable statistically.

I'm not. Helm has never produced consistent offense his entire career. So why in hell would you put him on a scoring line wing...ya know, the position most directly responsible for scoring goals?

While we're at it we can make Brendan Smith a power forward and Jonas Gustavsson a defenseman! It's a free for all!

Please...tell us more incredibly obvious things...

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Or trade him for something you need. He's got some value. Every other team in the history of professional sports trades the thing they've got too much of, for the thing they don't have enough of. Why is it that we feel the need to cram guys into roles they're unsuited for rather than move them for the things we need?

Agreed.

Which is why I said this:

Ultimately though, the problem I have is that if this team were ever to get a legit 2nd line center, a Kesler type guy, the guy Weiss was supposed to be, where in the hell does Helm go? The only place you could put him is on the 4th line.

Zetterberg - Datsuk - Abdlekader

Franzen - Legit 2nd Line Center - Nyquist

Tatar - Sheahan - Jurco

Miller - Helm - Andersson

Glendenning

To me, he's under-used in this role. But that's the only place for him.

One of these years, Kenny has to make some trades, especially with Mantha coming (hopefully) and maybe Pulkinnen next year.

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Please...tell us more incredibly obvious things...

I'm trying to, and you keep arguing against it. Darren Helm isn't good enough to be in the top six. In any capacity. Only Mike Babcock, Ken Holland, and you seem to think so.

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I'm not going to pretend that teams are lining up to trade second line centers.

One of the very things that are supposedly the highest in demand throughout the league. Top 6 proven centers.


I'm trying to, and you keep arguing against it. Darren Helm isn't good enough to be in the top six. In any capacity. Only Mike Babcock, Ken Holland, and you seem to think so.

On our roster he is. Until other guys consistently prove otherwise.

Yes a trade would fill that need. I think that's obvious to everyone.

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I'm not going to pretend that teams are lining up to trade second line centers.

One of the very things that are supposedly the highest in demand throughout the league. Top 6 proven centers.

We had a second line center on our team and let him walk in the offseason!!!!! He led our team in points. Think...really...hard...before...being dismissive.

Remember what David Legwand did with Franzen and Nyquist as wingers last year? The very same Franzen and Nyquist who would be his wingers right ******* now if he were still on the team.

Why are you acting like it's cosmically impossible to imagine a scenario in which we've got a 2nd line center better than Darren Helm?

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I know this is a stretch, but here goes.

Why don't we leave the top line like it is. And then pair Darren Helm with one or two of the 10,000,000 high quality NHL prospects we've got (that we don't have room for) and trade them for a second line center.

Then you could have

Z-Dats-Abby

Franzen-2nd line center-Nyquist

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Miller-Glendening-Andersson.

Jason Spezza and Ryan Kesler got moved for offers that we could have matched or beaten and we didn't make offers (Kesler had Detroit on his short list at last years' deadline, but not after we fell flat in the playoffs). Not saying it had to be one of those guys...but lets not pretend like it's impossible to trade for a center.

Simply because we already have a second line center waiting to return. And if he returns your scenario would put us in a ridiculous bad position. We both agree on Helms abilities or the lack of them respectively (and Franzen btw). But what we need is a short time solution to compensate for Weiss and in my opinion that means putting Helm on the wing.

Edited by derblaueClaus

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Simply because we already have a second line center waiting to return. And if he returns your scenario would put us in a ridiculous bad position. We both agree on Helms abilities or the lack of them respectively (and Franzen btw). But what we need is a short time solution to compensate for Weiss and in my opinion that means putting Helm on the wing.

Agreed that we're waiting to see if Weiss comes back and produces. But that shouldn't change Helm's fate. If Weiss does come back and is 100% and effective, then we've got two third line centers (Helm and Sheahan) and one needs to be traded. If Weiss doesn't come back then we've got one guy (Helm) who's a good third line center but not a good enough second line center. So pair him with prospects and/or picks and trade him for a better one. The only way Helm should stay on the team is if he (or Riley Sheahan) start producing like a second line center. Otherwise he's at best redundant, and at worst not good enough.

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