Lines Thread

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

We had a second line center on our team and let him walk in the offseason!!!!! He led our team in points. Think...really...hard...before...being dismissive.

Remember what David Legwand did with Franzen and Nyquist as wingers last year? The very same Franzen and Nyquist who would be his wingers rightf****** now if he were still on the team.

Why are you acting like it's cosmically impossible to imagine a scenario in which we've got a 2nd line center better than Darren Helm?

That's super but he's not here now and I'm not going to pretend we had the cap space to sign him...

Cap + Weiss situation + center abundance + Holland's history + willing trade partner = no 2nd line center added via trade.

[T.Low 1,011]

I seem to remember Legwand having an incredible first game with NyQ and Franzen , then fizzing out and going flat, then getting demoted.

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

Agreed that we're waiting to see if Weiss comes back and produces. But that shouldn't change Helm's fate. If Weiss does come back and is 100% and effective, then we've got two third line centers (Helm and Sheahan) and one needs to be traded. If Weiss doesn't come back then we've got one guy (Helm) who's a good third line center but not a good enough second line center. So pair him with prospects and/or picks and trade him for a better one. The only way Helm should stay on the team is if he (or Riley Sheahan) start producing like a second line center. Otherwise he's at best redundant, and at worst not good enough.

I still think he's valuable as a penalty killer because of his speed but, yea, he is to pricey for just that.

[kipwinger 8,524]

That's super but he's not here now and I'm not going to pretend we had the cap space to sign him...

Cap + Weiss situation + center abundance + Holland's history + willing trade partner = no 2nd line center added via trade.

What are you talking about, we nearly have the cap space to sign him still...right now...at his current price tag. You're just making excuses why it wasn't done. Maybe a better question is "why do we expect that"?

This is nothing new around LGW. It was the same thing that happened to the defense after Rafalski, then Lids and Stuart left. Everybody always had an excuse why none of the zillion quality defensemen that were signed or traded could have landed here. Yet every other contender finds a way.

Not us though. Getting any help from outside the organization is apparently impossible and literally nothing can be done to get Darren Helm out of the top six. Nothing.

I seem to remember Legwand having an incredible first game with NyQ and Franzen , then fizzing out and going flat, then getting demoted.

He had like 11 pts. in 21 games (.5 ppg, fine for a second line center) and more importantly was the center during Nyquist's remarkable run (so at the very least he wasn't impeding 2nd line production. So fizzled out is probably a bit inaccurate. He also, as stated, led our team in points with 51. So if he did "fizzle out", maybe it was our system/coach and not him.

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

What are you talking about, we nearly have the cap space to sign him still...right now...at his current price tag. You're just making excuses why it wasn't done. Maybe a better question is "why do we expect that"?

We don't. Not if we plan to sign a Top 4 RH D-Man and resign Nyquist next season.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

What are you talking about, we nearly have the cap space to sign him still...right now...at his current price tag. You're just making excuses why it wasn't done. Maybe a better question is "why do we expect that"?

This is nothing new around LGW. It was the same thing that happened to the defense after Rafalski, then Lids and Stuart left. Everybody always had an excuse why none of the zillion quality defensemen that were signed or traded could have landed here. Yet every other contender finds a way.

Not us though. Getting any help from outside the organization is apparently impossible and literally nothing can be done to get Darren Helm out of the top six. Nothing.

"Nearly the cap space" is still over the cap not to mention you need buffer room and you obviously haven't looked at next season and who we have to re-sign.

You really think after last season and all the injuries and lineup shuffling we're going to go that close to the cap?

Regardless I do not think a 35 yr old Legwand is much better than what we have.

[kipwinger 8,524]

We don't. Not if we plan to sign a Top 4 RH D-Man and resign Nyquist next season.

The point was we had the space in the offseason, and still do. Obviously it can't actually be done, he's signed to another team. Son of a Wing was trying to say we didn't have the space, which we did (and nearly still do) in the offseason.

Signing Legwand in the offseason wasn't the only conceivable way to get a 2nd line center. Just one way. But had we resigned him it's not unrealistic to think we could have saved money by 1) Not resigning Cleary, 2) not re-signing Quincey with a raise to play in on the third pair (really who didn't see that our top four were going to be Kronwall, Ericsson, Smith, and Dekeyser), 3) Waiving or trading Kindl and replacing him with our best young kid on an entry level contract, 4) trading Helm since signing Legwand would have made him redundant.

It's not like there weren't options.

"Nearly the cap space" is still over the cap not to mention you need buffer room and you obviously haven't looked at next season and who we have to re-sign.

You really think after last season and all the injuries and lineup shuffling we're going to go that close to the cap?

Regardless I do not think a 35 yr old Legwand is much better than what we have.

I concede. There is literally nothing that could be done to improve the 2nd line center position. There was not one single reasonable option. None. And there doesn't need to be one anyway, because Darren Helm is a great 2nd line center and is doing a hell of a job in the top six. He's playing right where he should, both of his, and the team's long term success.

I was wrong.

[T.Low 1,011]

Zetterberg Datsyuk Abby

Hossa Kesler Nyquist

Tatar Sheahan Jurco

Miller Glenny Callaghan

Must...let...go...

[kipwinger 8,524]

Zetterberg Datsyuk Abby

Hossa Kesler Nyquist

Tatar Sheahan Jurco

Miller Glenny Callaghan

Must...let...go...

Just an example of the types of options available, lest anyone fall into the trap of thinking that "2nd line centers never get moved". They do. That's just a recent one.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Yup and we got Weiss.

[kipwinger 8,524]

Yup and we got Weiss.

Yup. And that didn't work out. So maybe we should think about what to do next. Either that or sit around making excuses about why it can't be any other way than what it is.

And guess what, Darren Helm probably isn't the answer.

Edit: Now watch, Helm will go off for a goal or two tonight and make me look like a complete ******* lol.

Edited November 4, 2014 by kipwinger

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Stephen Weiss' latest injury not long-term, might return to practice for Red Wings this weekend

Link

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Yup. And that didn't work out. So maybe we should think about what to do next. Either that or sit around making excuses about why it can't be any other way than what it is.

And guess what, Darren Helm probably isn't the answer.

Edit: Now watch, Helm will go off for a goal or two tonight and make me look like a complete ******* lol.

But, Helm is playing 3rd line center tonight, lol. I think Helm will pick it up soon - people forget that he was injured and missed most of training camp and preseason. He's been playing well recently.

After having this conversation with you a few times, kip, I think I understand you more and I think most people's opinions are not really that different. The big problem is that we don't have 6 sure-thing top 6 player. (We've got Z,D,Mule,Nyquist) that leaves 2 holes (1 if you allow Abby in his role). We also have too many centers. With this situation, Babcock has to get creative. The one thing I don't understand is why you usually curse Babcock when he's just dealing with what he's got. I think supporters of Helm on the second line wing are thinking about managing the players we have. You were vehemently apposed to Abby on the first line and he seems to claiming his spot. Helm has always put up more points than Abby so it is not inconceivable that he could work in that role.

Conversely, I think most would agree that making a trade to fix our two offensive problems could be good. This is where I think the real conversation is, I think. And I think there's a few specific issues:

1. Which of the extra centers do we trade? Sheahan or Helm (I don't think Glen is getting us much) Trading Weiss is looking to be the most ideal situation, but that would likely just be a salary dump.

2. Do we trade for a #2 Center or a scoring winger? If you're still holding out hope for Weiss then Winger would probably be the choice. But if Weiss is still here, I don't really see any way we can sign another center. We also have Mantha who we hope will take one of those spots next year. Any trade will have to give up good assets - Is it worth it if we have a top winger coming next year?

3. Shouldn't we be trading for a RH offensive defenceman? Mantha is on the horizon - If he pans out and Weiss regains his form, our top 6 problem is solved without making any moves up front. If that looks likely than I'd rather have Abby and Helm hold down the fort until that happens. Maybe Alfie still plugs one of those holes for a bit this year, as well.

And...I think all of that leads to Weiss being the real problem - we need to know where he's at before we know which direction to go. Until then Babs will be creative and we'll either see Helm on the wing with Z or Dats - or this 2A 2B line thing that we've got tonight.

Edited November 4, 2014 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

You read my mind...

[kipwinger 8,524]

I'm a genius and I just solved all the Red Wings problems. Ok, actually I just felt likef****** around on Capgeek. So here's a custom roster which will have no trouble scoring (but which admittedly would never fly with Babs as head coach). I explained all my moves below.

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
Red Wings
FORWARDS
Alexander Semin ($4.900m—30.00%) / Pavel Datsyuk ($7.500m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m)
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Gustav Nyquist ($0.950m)
Tomas Jurco ($0.709m) / Riley Sheahan ($0.950m) / Tomas Tatar ($2.750m)
Drew Miller ($1.350m) / Luke Glendening ($0.628m) / Joakim Andersson ($0.733m)
Andrej Nestrasil ($0.550m) / Danny Cleary ($1.500m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($4.250m)
Keith Yandle ($5.250m) / Danny DeKeyser ($2.188m)
Kyle Quincey ($4.250m) / Jakub Kindl ($2.400m)
Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($5.292m)
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.850m)
BUYOUTS
Carlo Colaiacovo ($0.000m)
Jordin Tootoo ($0.000m)
LTIR
Stephen Weiss ($4.900m)
BONUS OVERAGE
NaN
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15 crunched using simulation date of 2014-11-04)
SALARY CAP: $65,982,500; BONUSES: $1,215,833
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,112,840

Roster moves:

1. Traded 1st round pick and T. Pulkkinen for A. Semin (Carolina retains 30% of salary). (Would prefer to trade 2nd round pick, but upgraded to first because they retain salary).

2. S. Weiss to LTIR until end of season. (Regular buy out after season end).

3. D. Helm and B. Smith to Arizona for K. Yandle. (Would prefer to lose Quincey or Kindl rather than Smith, but have to give to get).

Edited November 5, 2014 by kipwinger

[Echolalia 2,961]

I'm a genius and I just solved all the Red Wings problems. Ok, actually I just felt likef****** around on Capgeek. So here's a custom roster which will have no trouble scoring (but which admittedly would never fly with Babs as head coach). I explained all my moves below.

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER

Red Wings

FORWARDS

Alexander Semin ($4.900m30.00%) / Pavel Datsyuk ($7.500m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m)

Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Gustav Nyquist ($0.950m)

Tomas Jurco ($0.709m) / Riley Sheahan ($0.950m) / Tomas Tatar ($2.750m)

Drew Miller ($1.350m) / Luke Glendening ($0.628m) / Joakim Andersson ($0.733m)

Andrej Nestrasil ($0.550m) / Danny Cleary ($1.500m) /

DEFENSEMEN

Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($4.250m)

Keith Yandle ($5.250m) / Danny DeKeyser ($2.188m)

Kyle Quincey ($4.250m) / Jakub Kindl ($2.400m)

Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) /

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($5.292m)

Jonas Gustavsson ($1.850m)

BUYOUTS

Carlo Colaiacovo ($0.000m)

Jordin Tootoo ($0.000m)

LTIR

Stephen Weiss ($4.900m)

BONUS OVERAGE

NaN

------

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(estimations for 2014-15 crunched using simulation date of 2014-11-04)

SALARY CAP: $65,982,500; BONUSES: $1,215,833

CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,112,840

Roster moves:

1. Traded 1st round pick and T. Pulkkinen for A. Semin (Carolina retains 30% of salary). (Would prefer to trade 2nd pick, but upgraded to first because they retain salary).

2. S. Weiss to LTIR until end of season. (Regular buy out after season end).

3. D. Helm and B. Smith to Arizona for K. Yandle. (Would prefer to lose Quincey or Kindl rather than Smith, but have to give to get).

Alex Semin? The same Alex Semin who's been a healthy scratch, and accumulated 0 goals and -7 in 9 games so far this year?

Yandle, yes, but I think the Coyotes would ask for more than Helm and Smith.

[kipwinger 8,524]

Alex Semin? The same Alex Semin who's been a healthy scratch, and accumulated 0 goals and -7 in 9 games so far this year?

Yandle, yes, but I think the Coyotes would ask for more than Helm and Smith.

Coyotes wouldn't ask for that much this year, because if they tank (and they're close to it already) they get a shot at McDavid and Eichel. They don't want to win. If they really need more give them ONE of our good defense prospects in addition.

Say what you want about Semin, but history has shown the guy scores goals. I know he's not doing s*** so far (Neither is anybody on Carolina's team), but he didn't forget how to score from last year (look as some of those snipes when you've got a minute). Keep in mind I've got them retaining salary. You don't think you could get enough goals out of him (with Datsyuk as his center) to justify 4.9 million? I do. Especially with that shot.

Edit: In 1994 the New York Rangers won the Stanley Cup. On their roster was Alexei Kovalev, the laziest, floaterest, defensive liabilitiest, good for nothing, bad teammate the NHL had ever seen. He had 22 goals and 33 assists in the regular season and 9 goals and 12 assists in the playoffs. Sound familiar.

Just imagine how good our PP would be.

Mostly this was just for fun though. Obviously it's not happening...though it's feasible considering I gave good value AND didn't acquire anybody who isn't rumored to be available. Can you blame me? I sure as s*** wasn't entertained watching that stinker of a game.

Edited November 5, 2014 by kipwinger

[Guest DeGraa55]

Coyotes wouldn't ask for that much this year, because if they tank (and they're close to it already) they get a shot at McDavid and Eichel. They don't want to win. If they really need more give them ONE of our good defense prospects in addition.

Say what you want about Semin, but history has shown the guy scores goals. I know he's not doing s*** so far (Neither is anybody on Carolina's team), but he didn't forget how to score from last year (look as some of those snipes when you've got a minute). Keep in mind I've got them retaining salary. You don't think you could get enough goals out of him (with Datsyuk as his center) to justify 4.9 million? I do. Especially with that shot.

Edit: In 1994 the New York Rangers won the Stanley Cup. On their roster was Alexei Kovalev, the laziest, floaterest, defensive liabilitiest, good for nothing, bad teammate the NHL had ever seen. He had 22 goals and 33 assists in the regular season and 9 goals and 12 assists in the playoffs. Sound familiar.

Just imagine how good our PP would be.

Mostly this was just for fun though. Obviously it's not happening...though it's feasible considering I gave good value AND didn't acquire anybody who isn't rumored to be available. Can you blame me? I sure as s*** wasn't entertained watching that stinker of a game.

I wouldn't mind semin at all. The problem is the five years left in his deal after this season. Or maybe it's six?

Also no way would I move smith for yandle. That's actually a downgrade on defense. I would like helm packaged in a deal though.

[kipwinger 8,524]

I wouldn't mind semin at all. The problem is the five years left in his deal after this season. Or maybe it's six?

Also no way would I move smith for yandle. That's actually a downgrade on defense. I would like helm packaged in a deal though.

Semin has three years left on his contract after this year, and Yandle is about the same as Smith defensively (in that neither is terrible, nor are they great) and regularly puts up 50 pts. The difference being that Yandle is an amazing transition player and PP quarterback who shoots right. Weren't you the one bitching in the GDT about how our defensemen can't move the puck in transition? Well here you go, Yandle is on of the best in the entire league at producing offense from the back end.

Again, I'd rather move Quincey or Kindl than Smith, but you have to give to get. And anybody who thinks Smith >/= Yandle is nuts.

Edited November 5, 2014 by kipwinger

[hooon 1,089]

Coyotes wouldn't ask for that much this year, because if they tank (and they're close to it already) they get a shot at McDavid and Eichel. They don't want to win. If they really need more give them ONE of our good defense prospects in addition.

Say what you want about Semin, but history has shown the guy scores goals. I know he's not doing s*** so far (Neither is anybody on Carolina's team), but he didn't forget how to score from last year (look as some of those snipes when you've got a minute). Keep in mind I've got them retaining salary. You don't think you could get enough goals out of him (with Datsyuk as his center) to justify 4.9 million? I do. Especially with that shot.

Edit: In 1994 the New York Rangers won the Stanley Cup. On their roster was Alexei Kovalev, the laziest, floaterest, defensive liabilitiest, good for nothing, bad teammate the NHL had ever seen. He had 22 goals and 33 assists in the regular season and 9 goals and 12 assists in the playoffs. Sound familiar.

Just imagine how good our PP would be.

Mostly this was just for fun though. Obviously it's not happening...though it's feasible considering I gave good value AND didn't acquire anybody who isn't rumored to be available. Can you blame me? I sure as s*** wasn't entertained watching that stinker of a game.

Sorry, but no way I'd give up the 1st round pick in what people are calling one of the deepest drafts in years for Alex Semin... let alone add a darn good prospect on top of it. I'm not against Alex Semin by any means, and I'd take him on the team if we got a good deal, but no need to give up so much for a short term, high risk gamble.

[Guest DeGraa55]

Semin has three years left on his contract after this year, and Yandle is about the same as Smith defensively (in that neither is terrible, nor are they great) and regularly puts up 50 pts. The difference being that Yandle is an amazing transition player and PP quarterback who shoots right. Weren't you the one bitching in the GDT about how our defensemen can't move the puck in transition? Well here you go, Yandle is on of the best in the entire league at producing offense from the back end.

Again, I'd rather move Quincey or Kindl than Smith, but you have to give to get. And anybody who thinks Smith >/= Yandle is nuts.

No I hope it didn't come out like that I'll have to check for spelling errors. I actually said it's been pretty good for the most part from kronwall dekeyser smith and Quincey.

We just don't have the forwards to do much with it other then Abby z dat and nyquist.

I love the kids but Tatar is a turnover machine and jurco and Sheahan are just having bad luck. They're playing well and get good chances. Just no lucky bounces.

Here is my gdt post:

Our defense has actually been making great passes to leave the zone(smith dekeyser kronwall and Quincey) for the most part. Offense just SUCKS.

Now where was I complaining about the defense?

Edited November 5, 2014 by DeGraa55

[krsmith17 7,191]

A few things...

Helm is not a top 6 forward, and we're all aware of that. But we have a top 6 center injured right now (Weiss) so like any other team with injuries, we have to plug holes. And I agree that Helm is by far the best option to plug that hole right now. I don't think we're in any desperate need to shake things up. We have a lot of young talent coming and we need to see how these guys develop over the next year or so.

Although, I do think Yandle is an upgrade over Smith right now, I don't believe he will be in a few years from now. Smith is still young and growing as a defenseman, he will be fine. Also, Yandle doesn't shoot right, he's a lefty. If we're going to trade any of DeKeyser, Smith or Ouellet (which we won't) it needs to be for a right handed shot.

I'd love to have Semin on this team and I've been saying that for years. He's exactly what this team needs. No matter how little production he's had this year, imagine him on Pav's wing... He would be lethal on the power-play.

[kipwinger 8,524]

No I hope it didn't come out like that I'll have to check for spelling errors. I actually said it's been pretty good for the most part from kronwall dekeyser smith and Quincey.

We just don't have the forwards to do much with it other then Abby z dat and nyquist.

I love the kids but Tatar is a turnover machine and jurco and Sheahan are just having bad luck. They're playing well and get good chances. Just no lucky bounces.

Here is my gdt post:

Our defense has actually been making great passes to leave the zone(smith dekeyser kronwall and Quincey) for the most part. Offense just SUCKS.

Now where was I complaining about the defense?

You weren't. I was attributing someone else's thoughts to you. My mistake.

[e_prime 1,936]

A few things...

Helm is not a top 6 forward, and we're all aware of that. But we have a top 6 center injured right now (Weiss) so like any other team with injuries, we have to plug holes. And I agree that Helm is by far the best option to plug that hole right now. I don't think we're in any desperate need to shake things up. We have a lot of young talent coming and we need to see how these guys develop over the next year or so.

Although, I do think Yandle is an upgrade over Smith right now, I don't believe he will be in a few years from now. Smith is still young and growing as a defenseman, he will be fine. Also, Yandle doesn't shoot right, he's a lefty. If we're going to trade any of DeKeyser, Smith or Ouellet (which we won't) it needs to be for a right handed shot.

I'd love to have Semin on this team and I've been saying that for years. He's exactly what this team needs. No matter how little production he's had this year, imagine him on Pav's wing... He would be lethal on the power-play.

So... Helm for Semin?

Semin - Dats - Abby

Nyq - Zetterberg - Franzen

Jurco - Sheahan - Tatar

Miller - Glendeninininininining - Andersson

EDIT: I hate his contract.

Edited November 5, 2014 by e_prime

[kipwinger 8,524]

A few things...

Helm is not a top 6 forward, and we're all aware of that. But we have a top 6 center injured right now (Weiss) so like any other team with injuries, we have to plug holes. And I agree that Helm is by far the best option to plug that hole right now. I don't think we're in any desperate need to shake things up. We have a lot of young talent coming and we need to see how these guys develop over the next year or so.

Although, I do think Yandle is an upgrade over Smith right now, I don't believe he will be in a few years from now. Smith is still young and growing as a defenseman, he will be fine. Also, Yandle doesn't shoot right, he's a lefty. If we're going to trade any of DeKeyser, Smith or Ouellet (which we won't) it needs to be for a right handed shot.

I'd love to have Semin on this team and I've been saying that for years. He's exactly what this team needs. No matter how little production he's had this year, imagine him on Pav's wing... He would be lethal on the power-play.

Good call on Yandle shooting left. Either way, I dont' think it matters as much as many do, so long as your lefties are first rate (Yandle is).

Also, come on? Smith's played pretty well this season, but there's absolutely nothing to indicate that "he'll be better" than a two time all star, and one of the leading point producing defensemen in the national hockey league for the last 9 seasons. I think you're sleeping on Yandle and inflating Smith's potential just a little bit here.