Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

[kipwinger 8,755]

SP, while I like people thinking outside of the box you have to be somewhat realistic. Weiss, the 2014 2nd round pick-which we don't own, and a 2015 3rd round pick is not going to get us berglund or anyone else in the NHL.

TBH not sure we need or should resign Legwand either. He looks bad vs Bos and has been very average since coming over. He is a 3c at best at this point in his career-33 years old. 2-3 year deal for no more than 3.5 million per is the max I would offer, and that is only if I had to to fill a hole after a trade.

How does Legwand look bad against Boston? If you demoted Datsyuk down to the fourth line, moved him to his unnatural position, and gave him 15 shifts with Miller and Glendening as linemates I imagine he'd probably not make much of a difference either. Doesn't mean he's bad, it just means he's been put in a position he can't possibly succeed in.

Also, he has an awful lot of points for a "3c at best".

Edited April 23, 2014 by kipwinger

[nawein 324]

Franzen and Almquist for the rights to Dwight King.

[DSM 114]

Brian McGrattan, Colton Orr, Steve MacIntyre, Patrick Bordelaux someone of that pack is hugely needed

then - which is hard to find - defensive help Pittsburgh likely won't have the money to re-sign him so maybe there is a slight chance at Niskanen but I would prefer someone like Luke Schenn (big mean, physical and nasty)

While I'm no longer one of those "WINGS NEED AN ENFORCER" types, I do think Holland/Babcock should consider having someone on the team that can keep the flies off.

It has to say something when EVERY team that has won a Cup in the salary cap era did so while carrying a player or players of that ilk on their roster for the entire season. Included our beloved 2008 Red Wings team.

I know one of the common laments is that the player takes a roster spot from a better player, but a better playing sitting as #14 forward isn't going to play much anyway...

[DSM 114]

I'm on the fence regarding re-signing Legwand. I do firmly believe that without getting him at the deadline, this team wouldn't be playing right now. I know everyone is just incensed over losing Waynlle Jarnkretzky, but I think this team is showing right now that they'll be better off without another smallish forward on the team.

I do have to wonder if he'll test the market. Behind Stasny, the UFA market is extremely thin for top 6 capable centers. Legwand could stand to get a hefty offer from another team looking for a 2nd line center. I also for some reason don't think the whole "playing in his hometown" thing is factoring in much. In his first game here, they interviewed his Dad at the Joe who made it seem like playing here wasn't the biggest deal.

If you subtract the Red Wings UFA's and assume that all notable RFA's get re-signed, the team has 12 forwards and 6 dmen in the fold. If they re-sign Quincey, Legwand and Alfredsson, they go into the season with the same team that is getting out muscled by the Bruins and can't produce on the PP, except for the additions of a healthy Zetterberg, Weiss and Ericsson. Is that enough to make this team any better?

[_SP_ 129]

Why in the world would he play on the top line, the coach just demoted him to the fourth line and won't move him despite the team's obvious offensive struggles? You think he's going to take less than market value, coming off one of his best years ever, to play for a coach who treats him like a scrub? Good luck.

What's market value? Who's deciding that? Certainly not you. And you have no idea why the coach is playing him on that line- could it be that he's trying to get Legwand to play with people he's comfortable with? We've had one of the most active rosters over the last four weeks, with a crazy number of different lines. Nobody seems to be comfortable out there right now.

SP, while I like people thinking outside of the box you have to be somewhat realistic. Weiss, the 2014 2nd round pick-which we don't own, and a 2015 3rd round pick is not going to get us berglund or anyone else in the NHL.

TBH not sure we need or should resign Legwand either. He looks bad vs Bos and has been very average since coming over. He is a 3c at best at this point in his career-33 years old. 2-3 year deal for no more than 3.5 million per is the max I would offer, and that is only if I had to to fill a hole after a trade.

I'm sorry, I was reviewing the Legwand trade and got mixed up. It should be a 1st and 3rd, plus the better center (Berglund is better on the wing) which is what the RFA deal calls for at that price point. I still believe in Legwand.

Edited April 23, 2014 by _SP_

[Buppy 1,720]

I have mixed feelings about your post. Sure, fans overreact when their team looks as bad as we have the last couple of games. And obviously, the sky is not falling. You're right, we've made the playoffs a whole bunch of times and in general we're lucky we never have to watch a bottom feeder.

But you also make it seem like we should pat ourselves on the back for making the playoffs as if that's some victory in and of itself. It would be...for the Lions. But given that the Red Wings ALWAYS make it, there's some expectation that periodically they'll challenge for a Cup, or make it to the finals, or even make it to the conference finals...none of which we've done since 2009.

If it's an overreaction to assume that everything about the team sucks and the Wings are terrible, its an equally bad under-reaction to assume that nothing is wrong with the team, and if not for a few less injuries we'd have been competing for Cups these last few years.

I guess all I'm saying is that if you look at it objectively, there is some reason to worry that the team is trending in the wrong direction (e.g. barely making the playoffs, stinking up their first round series' against Nashville and now Boston, blowing 3-1 series leads, etc.)

We should pat ourselves on the back. Making the playoffs last season and even more so this season, is a victory. We should be proud of our playoff performance last year, even if we did "blow" a 3-1 lead. Even if we lose in 5 to the PT winners, a team that won a Cup a few years ago and went to the finals last year, it's nothing to be ashamed of.

Having some pride in what we've been able to accomplish during the beginning of our transition is not the same as assuming nothing is wrong with the team. Nothing lasts forever, and that includes being content with marginal achievements. Saying, "we did well this year, all things considered", is in no way, shape, or form a statement that we should never try or expect to improve.

You say "trending in the wrong direction", but by definition you have to go down before you can head back up. To suggest that we should already be getting back to the top is saying we never should have fallen in the first place, or at least that our floor should have been a top 7 overall finish and a 2nd round loss. The expectations most people have for this team are ridiculously unrealistic. We've barely even declined (at least relative to what "decline" means for the rest of the league), and by the look of our kids this year we may already be moving back up (at least in the short-term). It's actually pretty damn impressive, and it's a shame more people can't appreciate it.

[kipwinger 8,755]

We should pat ourselves on the back. Making the playoffs last season and even more so this season, is a victory. We should be proud of our playoff performance last year, even if we did "blow" a 3-1 lead. Even if we lose in 5 to the PT winners, a team that won a Cup a few years ago and went to the finals last year, it's nothing to be ashamed of.

Having some pride in what we've been able to accomplish during the beginning of our transition is not the same as assuming nothing is wrong with the team. Nothing lasts forever, and that includes being content with marginal achievements. Saying, "we did well this year, all things considered", is in no way, shape, or form a statement that we should never try or expect to improve.

You say "trending in the wrong direction", but by definition you have to go down before you can head back up. To suggest that we should already be getting back to the top is saying we never should have fallen in the first place, or at least that our floor should have been a top 7 overall finish and a 2nd round loss. The expectations most people have for this team are ridiculously unrealistic. We've barely even declined (at least relative to what "decline" means for the rest of the league), and by the look of our kids this year we may already be moving back up (at least in the short-term). It's actually pretty damn impressive, and it's a shame more people can't appreciate it.

I certainly don't mean to suggest (or sound like I'm suggesting) that there's something wrong with making the playoffs, or that it's not an accomplishment. I'm saying that failing to acknowledge (and to the extent possible, rectify) existing issues or mistakes, simply because we've made the playoffs, is not an especially productive way to approach getting over the hump. For instance, if I say "I think Holland and Babs have an issue because one keeps acquiring players that the other doesn't use", and you reply "Whoot! We made the playoffs didn't we? 23 Baby!", then a real issue is glossed over which could potentially cost us. In this instance, the problem may well have cost us a very promising young prospect for nothing as I'd be amazed if Legwand resigns given that he waived his NTC to come to a team only to be demoted to the fourth line after having (nearly) career best year.

But nobody seems to give a s*** because hey...23 Baby!

Edited April 23, 2014 by kipwinger

[kipwinger 8,755]

What's market value? Who's deciding that? Certainly not you. And you have no idea why the coach is playing him on that line- could it be that he's trying to get Legwand to play with people he's comfortable with? We've had one of the most active rosters over the last four weeks, with a crazy number of different lines. Nobody seems to be comfortable out there right now.

I don't dictate the market. Supply and Demand does. And there aren't a lot of 50 pt. centers on the market. Expecting Legwand to make the same money in a thin free agent class after putting up 51 pts. as well as being a quality veteran, leader, and 2 way player is silly. If you don't think so, I don't know what to tell you.

You're right, I don't know why Babcock is playing him down there, but I do know that Legwand looked plenty comfortable with Nyquist and Franzen when that line was singlehandedly carrying us into the playoffs.

Edited April 23, 2014 by kipwinger

[frankgrimes 1,836]

While I'm no longer one of those "WINGS NEED AN ENFORCER" types, I do think Holland/Babcock should consider having someone on the team that can keep the flies off.

It has to say something when EVERY team that has won a Cup in the salary cap era did so while carrying a player or players of that ilk on their roster for the entire season. Included our beloved 2008 Red Wings team.

I know one of the common laments is that the player takes a roster spot from a better player, but a better playing sitting as #14 forward isn't going to play much anyway...

See and that's exactly the point. Such a player wouldn't take away much, a #14 forward doesn't offer anything a hardnosed "goontype" player at least keeps the other team honest. There is a reason why nobody is ******* around with Monahan or Baertschi and even if they try it, McGrattan steps in and the case is closed.

To me our young guns are looking intimidated and somewhat unsure of themselves, it's a good but a very tough learning experience for them. More importantly hopefully an eye-opener for Holland and his anti-enforcer/toughguy stance.

[DSM 114]

If it were me:

Forwards:

-Assume all notable RFA's are resigned at reasonable price

-Let Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary and Legwand walk

-Re-sign Alfredsson if he wants to return. If not, target an affordable UFA forward that can score (Jagr, Iginla, Moulson, Bolland, Vrbata, Michalek, Jussi Jokinen, Raymond).

-Sign cheap (>$750k for a year...) role player as #14 forward to keep the flies off when needed (Rupp, Glass, Parros, Konopka, Thorburn, Carcillo, Barch, Scott, Mike Brown, Bissonette, Westgarth, Janssen, etc.).

-Start Jurco in GR, but recall when injuries create openings

====

Defense:

-Re-sign DeKeyser obviously.

-Target Boyle or Zidlicky as a UFA top 4 RH PP Quarterback for 1-2 years

-Offer Quincey a reasonable deal to stay on as a third pairing guy.

-If Quincey walks, target a physical defensive UFA dman (Orpik, Mitchell, Morris, Green, Robidas, Doug Murray, Volchenkov (If NJ uses a compliance...))

-Find taker for Lashoff or expose to waivers before season start. I've got to think that with two solid UFA dmen added and Ouellet, Sproul and Marchenko in the mix, Lashoff and his easily buryable salary become expendable.

====

Goalie:

-Offer to re-sign Gustavsson for another year. If he walks and depending on cap space, explore the following options:

a) Sign for 1 year, an experienced 1B/backup goalie (Bryzgalov, Thomas, Emery) or an established backup (Elliot, Greiss, Montoya, Chad Johnson, Hutton, McIlhinney, Justin Peters)

b) Promote Mrazek to backup, but sign an NHL experienced goalie for depth/insurance (Dubnyk, JMac, LaBarbara, etc.)

====

Could look something like this:

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Abdelkader

Franzen - Weiss - Alfredsson/UFA

Nyquist - Sheahan - Tatar

Miller - Glendening/Andersson - Helm

UFA

Kronwall - Ericsson

DeKeyser - Boyle/Zidlicky/UFA

Some combination of UFA/Smith/Kindl

Howard

UFA/Mrazek

[greenrebellion 415]

I certainly don't mean to suggest (or sound like I'm suggesting) that there's something wrong with making the playoffs, or that it's not an accomplishment. I'm saying that failing to acknowledge (and to the extent possible, rectify) existing issues or mistakes, simply because we've made the playoffs, is not an especially productive way to approach getting over the hump. For instance, if I say "I think Holland and Babs have an issue because one keeps acquiring players that the other doesn't use", and you reply "Whoot! We made the playoffs didn't we? 23 Baby!", then a real issue is glossed over which could potentially cost us. In this instance, the problem may well have cost us a very promising young prospect for nothing as I'd be amazed if Legwand resigns given that he waived his NTC to come to a team only to be demoted to the fourth line after having (nearly) career best year.

But nobody seems to give a s*** because hey...23 Baby!

Why do so many think Babcock is Jack Adams worthy...are most people crazy, are we all missing something?

Are you saying that ice time for Holland acquisitions is your main issue with Babcock or was that just an example? Who are these players that aren't getting used that Holland wants used more? I'm sure that Holland didn't sign Samuellson and Cleary thinking that would play as bad as they did...and once they failed to perform, I doubt that Holland is sitting there going "Why oh Why are Cleary and Samuellson riding the pine."

Legwand played heavy minutes helping us to get into the playoffs and now his icetime has been reduced a bit with people getting healthy but he still played 14 minutes last game. You can argue you don't like his role currently, but to say that Holland is acquiring players that Babcock doesn't use just isn't accurately portraying the situation.

[DSM 114]

See and that's exactly the point. Such a player wouldn't take away much, a #14 forward doesn't offer anything a hardnosed "goontype" player at least keeps the other team honest. There is a reason why nobody isf****** around with Monahan or Baertschi and even if they try it, McGrattan steps in and the case is closed.

To me our young guns are looking intimidated and somewhat unsure of themselves, it's a good but a very tough learning experience for them. More importantly hopefully an eye-opener for Holland and his anti-enforcer/toughguy stance.

Exactly.

It's not like if some injuries pile up and you come across a situation where you don't need your Role Guy, you can't call up Jurco/Pulkkinen/Mantha/whoever to take a regular shift or dress 7 dmen.

Holland should know full well the benefits. The only time he's carried a player of that ilk on his 23 man roster for an entire season since Joey Kocur retired, his team was still playing in June and he got to hoist this big shiny thing on the Penguins ice and got some nice gold ring that I'm sure he admires once in a blue moon...

[_SP_ 129]

I don't dictate the market. Supply and Demand does. And there aren't a lot of 50 pt. centers on the market. Expecting Legwand to make the same money in a thin free agent class after putting up 51 pts. as well as being a quality veteran, leader, and 2 way player is silly. If you don't think so, I don't know what to tell you.

You're right, I don't know why Babcock is playing him down there, but I do know that Legwand looked plenty comfortable with Nyquist and Franzen when that line was singlehandedly carrying us into the playoffs.

You don't know who is going to be targetting a #2/3 C or what the value of his contract is going to be. Would have have given $4.9M to Weiss? I wouldn't have. Would you have thought Cullen would only get 3.5M

You're right about that line... and then each was moved up, at various times, to play with Datsyuk when he returned. Which disrupted the chemistry.

[Jeff6851 168]

We don't really need any big name players, our prospects are the real deal. Get a second line winger for the PP and another D-man then let Pulkinnen get minutes in GR until the playoff push (unless he's still not ready).

[larionov_8 12]

We don't really need any big name players, our prospects are the real deal. Get a second line winger for the PP and another D-man then let Pulkinnen get minutes in GR until the playoff push (unless he's still not ready).

I would agree, don't need the flashiest names. I think a good fit upfront would be Nik Kulemin.

- He's a guy who can play in the corners, in front of the net, and in all situations

- has a very good shot

- has size and relative youth: about 6'1, 225lbs, 27 yrs old

- scheduled to be a UFA if Toronto doesn't or can't re-sign

- would cost much less than a guy like Callahan

On D, I like Matt Greene. Big right handed Michigan fella. Not having a great playoffs with LA right now, but if he tests free agency I think he'd be an upgrade over Lashoff or Quincey. Would be tempting to look at a vet offensive D man like Boyle or Zidlicky but we have so many offensive type guys that I would worry we'd be even more porous on the back end. Keeping Quincey is an option of course, though I suspect another team might offer him more than Detroit is willing to.

Lines could look something like:

Z - Dats - Kulemin (3 mil)

Nyquist - Weiss - Franzen

Abdelkader - Helm - Tatar

Miller - Andersson - Sheahan

Ferraro/Callahan

*Glendening, Jurco are call ups

Kronwall - Dekeyser

Ericsson - Smith

Kindl - Greene (3 mil)

Lashoff, (Almquist)

[Buppy 1,720]

I certainly don't mean to suggest (or sound like I'm suggesting) that there's something wrong with making the playoffs, or that it's not an accomplishment. I'm saying that failing to acknowledge (and to the extent possible, rectify) existing issues or mistakes, simply because we've made the playoffs, is not an especially productive way to approach getting over the hump. For instance, if I say "I think Holland and Babs have an issue because one keeps acquiring players that the other doesn't use", and you reply "Whoot! We made the playoffs didn't we? 23 Baby!", then a real issue is glossed over which could potentially cost us. In this instance, the problem may well have cost us a very promising young prospect for nothing as I'd be amazed if Legwand resigns given that he waived his NTC to come to a team only to be demoted to the fourth line after having (nearly) career best year.

But nobody seems to give a s*** because hey...23 Baby!

But acknowledging and appreciating the success we have had is not failing to acknowledge existing issues. Or, more accurately, suggesting that the level of criticism is over the top is not the same as saying nothing should be criticized.

And we are only fans. We have nothing to do with "getting over the hump", so there is no productive approach for any of us to take.

If all the criticism was actually as reasonably stated, and the counters as silly as your example, I might be more on your side. But the exact opposite is true more often. It's usually the critics making the irrational, emotion-fueled posts.

But whatever. If there's one thing people really love it's misery. I don't feel up to fighting human nature.

[kipwinger 8,755]

But acknowledging and appreciating the success we have had is not failing to acknowledge existing issues. Or, more accurately, suggesting that the level of criticism is over the top is not the same as saying nothing should be criticized.

And we are only fans. We have nothing to do with "getting over the hump", so there is no productive approach for any of us to take.

If all the criticism was actually as reasonably stated, and the counters as silly as your example, I might be more on your side. But the exact opposite is true more often. It's usually the critics making the irrational, emotion-fueled posts.

But whatever. If there's one thing people really love it's misery. I don't feel up to fighting human nature.

Look back over the posts. It happened just like this. I criticized Babcock more misusing Legwand and got a "23 straight playoffs response". Be as combative as you want, but in the future maybe look back over what was said before climbing your soapbox.

Edited April 24, 2014 by kipwinger

[nawein 324]

Franzen, Smith, Pulks/Ouellet, this years first rounder for Ryan McDonagh. If they want Tatar instead of the first or prospect, I still might pull the trigger. A top 4 of McDonagh-DK and Kronner-E makes me much more comfortable than what we've got now. I can only hope Sather is overwhelmed be the sheer number of NHL pieces coming his way and accepts.

[Buppy 1,720]

Look back over the posts. It happened just like this. I criticized Babcock more misusing Legwand and got a "23 straight playoffs response". Be as combative as you want, but in the future maybe look back over what was said before climbing your soapbox.

I wasn't being combative at all. Sorry if it came off that way.

Franzen, Smith, Pulks/Ouellet, this years first rounder for Ryan McDonagh. If they want Tatar instead of the first or prospect, I still might pull the trigger. A top 4 of McDonagh-DK and Kronner-E makes me much more comfortable than what we've got now. I can only hope Sather is overwhelmed be the sheer number of NHL pieces coming his way and accepts.

Way too much.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Buppy

[Dabura 12,232]

Dustin Penner says he's willing to entertain any and every offer he might get this summer because he needs a job. Ken Holland's latest reclamation project?

A line of Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Penner could be interesting.

[Salviaman 104]

Goal scoring needs to be addressed. Scoring only 4 goals in 4 games is not very professional.

[Guest DeGraa55]

Franzen, Smith, Pulks/Ouellet, this years first rounder for Ryan McDonagh. If they want Tatar instead of the first or prospect, I still might pull the trigger. A top 4 of McDonagh-DK and Kronner-E makes me much more comfortable than what we've got now. I can only hope Sather is overwhelmed be the sheer number of NHL pieces coming his way and accepts.

I like McDonough but in the next year or two smith will be better. Oullete has the potential to be.

[nawein 324]

I like McDonough but in the next year or two smith will be better. Oullete has the potential to be.

I agree with the Ouellet part but at this point it's exactly what you said, potential. As for Smith being better that McDonagh in a year or two, no way. McDonagh is already a number one guy. He plays a better offensive game than Smith, he's miles ahead defensively and has a huge edge in the mental aspect. He plays both PP and PK, and about 25 minutes a night. And he's a bit younger than Smith. Smith will be a good offensive defenseman surely, but you're not going to get a young number one guy for Franzen.

[Guest DeGraa55]

I agree with the Ouellet part but at this point it's exactly what you said, potential. As for Smith being better that McDonagh in a year or two, no way. McDonagh is already a number one guy. He plays a better offensive game than Smith, he's miles ahead defensively and has a huge edge in the mental aspect. He plays both PP and PK, and about 25 minutes a night. And he's a bit younger than Smith. Smith will be a good offensive defenseman surely, but you're not going to get a young number one guy for Franzen.

I never said we could lol. Remember I was the one laughing when some clown suggested Franzen plus junk could get us Simmons. Franzen has very low value and everyone realizes it except for holland.

As for smith. That's my personal opinion. But offensively he is all ready THE BEST offensive defenseman on our team in 5 on 5. As well as made kronwall better. That's according to the stats someone posted at the end of regular season. Corsi stats I think it's called?

Edited April 26, 2014 by DeGraa55

[loutswings 47]

I say if I am Kenny I would let Bert, Cleary, Alfie, and Q walk. I would also free up more cap space by buying out Franzen.

Resign Legwand

Sign Niskanen

Sign Vanek

Sign Ott

I think with those additions you address the defense, grit, and scoring. But we know that about only 40-50% of that will probably will happen. I can see us over paying for Q, Franzen back for another year, and I would not be shocked if Cleary is signed for depth.