Next Seasons Needs/Team Future

[wings87 1,290]

Ericsson has been a pretty effective new Stuart. Raffi and Lids are really the gaping holes. Smith and Kindl have done nothing to replace them so far

E has been good, but we really miss Stuart's shot blocking.

[number9 3,297]

E has been good, but we really miss Stuart's shot blocking.

I really miss Raffi and Lids combined 70+ points a season. Kindl and Smiths combined 30+ a season makes #9 a sad panda.

[wings87 1,290]

I really miss Raffi and Lids combined 70+ points a season. Kindl and Smiths combined 30+ a season makes #9 a sad panda.

I feel your pain.

[Buppy 1,720]

I really miss Raffi and Lids combined 70+ points a season. Kindl and Smiths combined 30+ a season makes #9 a sad panda.

Heh, our defense this year has a combined 22 goals and 112 points.

Nick and Rafi combined for:

07-08: 23g, 125p

08-09: 26g, 118p

09-10: 17g, 91p

10-11: 20g, 110p

Rest of our defense added:

07-08: 17g, 79p

08-09: 19g, 106p

09-10: 19g, 73p

10-11: 21g, 96p

...

As far as what I'd like to see done: starting with not resigning any of our UFA's, getting a new 4th, 5th, and 6th defenceman. And singing at least 2 new forwards, but I'm not naive I know most of it won't happen.

I wouldn't really consider that an overhaul.

Looking at our UFAs, only Alfie and Quincey really play an important role. Sammy was barely even part of the team. Likely wouldn't have been had we been able to buy him out. Had we been able to, Nyquist probably would have been up all year. So we can consider that spot already filled. Cleary was, I believe, resigned at least in part due to Helm's lingering injury from last year. Sheahan being out of options takes his spot (I assume you want to bring back Sheahan and Tatar). Then we have a spot at the bottom of the forward roster, formerly filled by Eaves, Tootoo, Glendening, Emmerton, etc., and the spots of Bert in the bottom 6 and Alfie in the top 6. It's hard to consider Legwand's position, since he's only here because of all the injuries. He doesn't really have his own spot, he's just a stand-in for Zetterberg.

So three spots; one at the bottom, one in the middle and one at the top (low-end of the top at least). Hardly a "new face", whether we fill any or all with new UFAs. Same goes for filling the #4 defenseman spot or backup goalie, as well as the third pair. Even if you fill all 7 of those spots with new people I don't think it really changes the complexion of the team all that much. At least no more than just tweaking those two important spots.

[Guest DeGraa55]

I'd say I should have been more clear. Maybe I should have said "personnel decisions" rather than organizational philosophy.

I don't think missing or making the playoffs will affect any of those decisions. Some aren't decisions that need to be made, some will be made by simple necessity, some are just unimportant.

We're a team in transition, and it's absurd to think our management doesn't realize that. I think we're an organization that wants to remain competetive, but also committed to building through the draft. And I think we'll continue to try to balance both, until we either transition back into a contender or into a team that's much less feasible to keep competetive.

There is no sure-fire formula for building a cup team. If there was, sure...do that. But there isn't. Our philosophy, which seems to be, "try to scrape by as best we can while hoarding youth and hoping for the best", may not sound very good. But really it's no less likely to work than anything else we might try, and if it does work it likely means another long period of being a contender.

That's not really true. Prior to this year, the only "stop-gap" type players we've had have been in minor roles. Alfie is really the first to play a somewhat key role, and even he was only our 4th forward (maybe even 5th).

White and Quincey I think were more due to a lack of options rather than an unwillingness to make a bigger commitment.

And just out of curiosity, what would your idea of "an overhaul" be?

Actually being bad for awhile getting really high draft picks and dining a key free agent or two is the tripe for succes look at us Chicago and Pittsburgh. Being terrible for a period helped each team become what they were. Detroit got Stevie y and a few key trades like shanahan then continued to draft talent with later picks. Pittsburgh got Crosby and malkin. Chicago got toews and Kane.

So to me it seems somewhat clear. You tank and get a superstar to become relevant but then need a competent front office to continue and build upon that success.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

The wings don't need a center. They don't need a winger. They don't need a defenseman or goalie. All they need is a new trainer and a new offseason workout plan. This team is competitive with half the team injured. Imagine if everyone was healthy.

They didn't set the NHL on fire when all were healthy either, no matter the outcome of this season changes are needed. The team needs a new playstyle and a couple of new but fitting faces.

As for Roberts

I really don't understand why some of the undersized player aren't going to his camp every year if Stamkos can add 30 lbs (although I don't think that's true) other should be able to at least add 15 lbs. Almquist isn't tall nor big enough for the NHL till he corrects that I wouldn't call him up. Also it's not about just keep adding weight the + weight needs to be turned into muscles otherwise the players becomes slower/sluggish kind of what happened to Luke Schenn after his enormous weight improvement went from 205 to 235 in ~ 18 months.

Edited March 19, 2014 by frankgrimes

[LeftWinger 4,962]

really, the only injured players this team misses are Datsyuk, Jurco and Zetterberg and Abby to an extent. The forwards that are playing now, sans Bertuzzi, are what is making this team competitive. Focus on D, D, D this July or even maybe at the draft, then if a forward pops up that you can use, then maybe check it out. We need D, D, D for sure! A legit top 2 guy and 1 maybe 2 SOLID, DEFENSIVE guys to make this team hard to play against again. I would trade for Edler, then sign Morris and Mitchell.

[Dabura 12,207]

Holland said some stuff:

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/a-pair-of-interesting-late-night-red-wings-listens-from-the-fan-590

I didn't listen, because every time he gives an interview I come away miffed and disappointed.

I will say this: if he's not going to address our blue line's issues because we've got some kids coming up soon (which would likely just be a euphemism for "It's really hard to get a good defenseman. I'd rather not doing anything and just wait, because it's easier and because I get paid the same salary either way"), he needs to be punched in the face repeatedly.

[VM1138 1,921]

really, the only injured players this team misses are Datsyuk, Jurco and Zetterberg and Abby to an extent.

Helm, too. There is no doubt this team plays more dynamically with Helm than without. Weiss would also be solid secondary playmaker when healthy.

A healthy team with Tatar, Sheahan and Nyquist instead of Cleary, Sammy, and Tootoo/Eaves/Bertuzzi is far more competitive.

We all know they struggled to start tee year but we forget those new players who have earned a spot.

To start the season we didn't have an effective third line or second line. Now we have both.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Holland said some stuff:

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/a-pair-of-interesting-late-night-red-wings-listens-from-the-fan-590

I didn't listen, because every time he gives an interview I come away miffed and disappointed.

I will say this: if he's not going to address our blue line's issues because we've got some kids coming up soon (which would likely just be a euphemism for "It's really hard to get a good defenseman. I'd rather not doing anything and just wait, because it's easier and because I get paid the same salary either way"), he needs to be punched in the face repeatedly.

Here is what he had to say (nothing too bad/good)

- knows replacing Lidstrom, Stuart and Rafalski is very hard

- thinks Kronwall has grown into the leadership role plays hard and physical (well we could need his physicality more often...)

- wasn't expecting some of the kids - namely Tatar, Nyquist - to be that far ahead of their planned schedule

- is happy with the development of Sheahan and Jurco

- hinted that these guys "could" play lesser roles next year when the team is healthy and guys like Legwand are re-signed ---- I really DON'T like the tone of that for obvious reasons

- Still believes if the team is healthy they could make some noise

that's basically it

[Dabura 12,207]

On a more positive note, Malik is such a quality guy. By which I mean he's a quality guy who I tend to agree with on a pretty consistent basis. Point is, I agree with what he says there in the comments section. An elite pickup for one or two years (e.g. Boyle, Timonen) is a no-brainer in that it'd appeal to the OMG WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE ROOM FOR ALL NINE OF OUR FUTURE HALL OF FAME DEFENSEMEN crowd as well as the EFFING HELL OUR BLUE LINE SUCKS SO FIX IT NOW AARRRGHHH crowd. A middle ground. A compromise of sorts. Good leaders do stuff like that. Abe Lincoln would've been an awesome NHL GM.

I also agree with Malik about Edler. If Gillis isn't going to come down on the asking price for him, he's absolutely not worth the risk. I'd been thinking Edler might turn it around here in the second half of the season, but no. He's simply been bad this season, and while I tend to give good players the benefit of the doubt in this kind of situation (and I guess I do in this case), his asking price is too much for a guy who'd be far from a sure thing in terms of fixing our top four. I have to admit, I'm wary of Quincey Part 2, and that'd be one excuse for inaction that I might actually accept from Holland. (Because Holland's job security hinges solely on my little whims.)

Basically, sign Boyle and get someone else, and make that someone else as good as possible, within reason. The fact that pretty much all of LGW seems to agree that we need at least one major addition to our blue line is pretty incredible, as we never "pretty much agree" on anything, ever. So, clearly something must be done about the D in the offseason. And, personally, I'm not convinced that adding Ryan Sproul on the third pairing is that thing which must be done. Sproul's not as close as people think. I could see him becoming our new whipping boy next season.

(Watch Sproul get called up today and score five goals against the Pens.)

[Dabura 12,207]

Thanks, frank. +1

[VM1138 1,921]

All I know Is Quincey coming back would immediately cost this team 10 wins next year. I hate this whole comfortable "wait and see" attitude. Holland will always be waiting and hoping Instead of takong proactive measures.

I know the UFA pool is weak but he still has to find someone. A solid bottom three guy to replace Quincey at least.

[kipwinger 8,524]

I'd say I should have been more clear. Maybe I should have said "personnel decisions" rather than organizational philosophy.

I don't think missing or making the playoffs will affect any of those decisions. Some aren't decisions that need to be made, some will be made by simple necessity, some are just unimportant.

We're a team in transition, and it's absurd to think our management doesn't realize that. I think we're an organization that wants to remain competetive, but also committed to building through the draft. And I think we'll continue to try to balance both, until we either transition back into a contender or into a team that's much less feasible to keep competetive.

There is no sure-fire formula for building a cup team. If there was, sure...do that. But there isn't. Our philosophy, which seems to be, "try to scrape by as best we can while hoarding youth and hoping for the best", may not sound very good. But really it's no less likely to work than anything else we might try, and if it does work it likely means another long period of being a contender.

That's not really true. Prior to this year, the only "stop-gap" type players we've had have been in minor roles. Alfie is really the first to play a somewhat key role, and even he was only our 4th forward (maybe even 5th).

White and Quincey I think were more due to a lack of options rather than an unwillingness to make a bigger commitment.

And just out of curiosity, what would your idea of "an overhaul" be?

I agree with the organizational philosophy completely. Again, I'm not trying to give off the impression that there's something wrong with seeing Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, Mantha, Sproul, Ouellet, Marchenko, Mrazek as the future core of this team. Given how they've shown up so far I'd say it's a REALLY good idea. But I do think you have to make decisions based on the new realities these guys have created. We essentially just got a (very good) third line, a top six forward, and backup goalie for free. Two years ago none of these guys (maybe Nyquist) were even on our radar. Tatar was an afterthought, and the rising star was Smith. All of that has changed because injuries showed that most of these guys were the real deal and many are ready now.

As such, we have the luxury of having a "fourth" line of Abby-Helm-Miller if we want, who can play 12-15 minutes of effective hockey (as opposed to the 6-8 our fourth currently plays). We don't need to have these guys playing a bigger role, and in truth, they're likely not suited for a bigger role. Reducing their roles means Abby isn't counted on for goals, Helm probably stays healthier, and we now have favorable matchups against deep teams. But that requires the org. rethink the roles Abby and Helm play on the team (not so much Miller his is the same). Similarly, having such high end young defensive talent makes Kindl redundant and means that you no longer have to hope that Smith will develop into a top four guy. Drop him to the third pair permanently and his mistakes are less costly (or less frequent).

Best part is, all these young guys have shown they're capable of taking on big roles but don't get paid s***...so we're cap friendly for at least 2-3 years. Just in case we decide we need a high end free agent to fill a role (top six winger, top four defenseman?).

But none of that's going to happen if Holland doesn't move (or consider moving) guys like Kindl and Andersson, letting the old guys walk, and reconsidering what roles Smith, Helm, and Abby play on this team.

That's my rationale anyway, but it's a good discussion so I'm certainly willing to reconsider if I'm missing something that you've picked up on.

Edited March 19, 2014 by kipwinger

[wings87 1,290]

I wouldn't really consider that an overhaul.

Looking at our UFAs, only Alfie and Quincey really play an important role. Sammy was barely even part of the team. Likely wouldn't have been had we been able to buy him out. Had we been able to, Nyquist probably would have been up all year. So we can consider that spot already filled. Cleary was, I believe, resigned at least in part due to Helm's lingering injury from last year. Sheahan being out of options takes his spot (I assume you want to bring back Sheahan and Tatar). Then we have a spot at the bottom of the forward roster, formerly filled by Eaves, Tootoo, Glendening, Emmerton, etc., and the spots of Bert in the bottom 6 and Alfie in the top 6. It's hard to consider Legwand's position, since he's only here because of all the injuries. He doesn't really have his own spot, he's just a stand-in for Zetterberg.

So three spots; one at the bottom, one in the middle and one at the top (low-end of the top at least). Hardly a "new face", whether we fill any or all with new UFAs. Same goes for filling the #4 defenseman spot or backup goalie, as well as the third pair. Even if you fill all 7 of those spots with new people I don't think it really changes the complexion of the team all that much. At least no more than just tweaking those two important spots.

To be fair the overhaul started this year out of necessity, I just want Holland to keep moving forward, and not fall back into the same patterns. I want to keep Sheahan, Tatar, and Nyquist those three are untouchable, but filling out the rest of the roster with youngsters is not ideal. I'd be open to to trading some prospects for proven players, and by proven I don't mean mean more 35 year olds.

So if you add Sheahan, Tatar, Nyquist, and subtract Alfie. Bert, Cleary, Sammy,(I realize that guys like Burt, Cleary, and Sammy don't play often, but just having all these veterans around that are used to playing a ton and not playing now can't be too good for moral) Legwand or Weiss( I don't see how you can keep both of them),Monster ( I like the guy but he's constantly injured) Smith, Kindle, and Quincey. Also adding preferably at least 1 pure scorer, would give the team a new look. Including the young players stepping up this year and hopefully some changes I think that would make this a pretty big turnover.

[kipwinger 8,524]

To be fair the overhaul started this year out of necessity, I just want Holland to keep moving forward, and not fall back into the same patterns. I want to keep Sheahan, Tatar, and Nyquist those three are untouchable, but filling out the rest of the roster with youngsters is not ideal. I'd be open to to trading some prospects for proven players, and by proven I don't mean mean more 35 year olds.

So if you add Sheahan, Tatar, Nyquist, and subtract Alfie. Bert, Cleary, Sammy,(I realize that guys like Burt, Cleary, and Sammy don't play often, but just having all these veterans around that are used to playing a ton and not playing now can't be too good for moral) Legwand or Weiss( I don't see how you can keep both of them),Monster ( I like the guy but he's constantly injured) Smith, Kindle, and Quincey. Also adding preferably at least 1 pure scorer, would give the team a new look. Including the young players stepping up this year and hopefully some changes I think that would make this a pretty big turnover.

You should listen to the interview with Holland linked here:

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/a-pair-of-interesting-late-night-red-wings-listens-from-the-fan-590.

In it a few things stick out to me, 1) Kids own the third line going forward, 2) He praises Kronwall, Ericsson, Dekeyser, and Quincey...lumps Smith and Lashoff together without much discussion, 3) No mention at all of Almquist when discussing the young d-men.

All good starts, but I still want to see how the futures of Kindl, Andersson, Glendening pan out, and whether we'll finally get Abby and Helm down on the fourth where they belong.

[wings87 1,290]

You should listen to the interview with Holland linked here:

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/a-pair-of-interesting-late-night-red-wings-listens-from-the-fan-590.

In it a few things stick out to me, 1) Kids own the third line going forward, 2) He praises Kronwall, Ericsson, Dekeyser, and Quincey...lumps Smith and Lashoff together without much discussion, 3) No mention at all of Almquist when discussing the young d-men.

All good starts, but I still want to see how the futures of Kindl, Andersson, Glendening pan out, and whether we'll finally get Abby and Helm down on the fourth where they belong.

Link doesn't work.

I Like the idea of keeping the kid line together although I do think that Jurco could use more time in the AHL. Almquist needs to get stronger but there should be no reason he's not mentioned as part of the future.

I think Andersson is already the player he'll be, he isn't bad; but very vanilla. I go back and forth on Kindle; one the hand he showed last year that he still has potential, on the other hand his inconsistency drives me up the wall. If he has any trade value I'd trade him. Glendening I'd keep around, although he and Ferraro seem very similar; Glendening plays a more physical game where as Ferraro has more scoring potential. it seem like there is no room for both of them.

I like Abby but I want to trade him; here's my reasoning: I absolutely despise him on the top line, but as long as Abby is on the team, Babs will have the temptation to put him out there with Pav and Z. So I say let's remove the temptation and package Abby and a pick for a D-man. As far as Quincey is concerned I've had this sinking feeling that he'll be resigned, Holland just doesn't like admitting his mistakes.

[kipwinger 8,524]

Link doesn't work.

I Like the idea of keeping the kid line together although I do think that Jurco could use more time in the AHL. Almquist needs to get stronger but there should be no reason he's not mentioned as part of the future.

I think Andersson is already the player he'll be, he isn't bad; but very vanilla. I go back and forth on Kindle; one the hand he showed last year that he still has potential, on the other hand his inconsistency drives me up the wall. If he has any trade value I'd trade him. Glendening I'd keep around, although he and Ferraro seem very similar; Glendening plays a more physical game where as Ferraro has more scoring potential. it seem like there is no room for both of them.

I like Abby but I want to trade him; here's my reasoning: I absolutely despise him on the top line, but as long as Abby is on the team, Babs will have the temptation to put him out there with Pav and Z. So I say let's remove the temptation and package Abby and a pick for a D-man. As far as Quincey is concerned I've had this sinking feeling that he'll be resigned, Holland just doesn't like admitting his mistakes.

Here's a working link:

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/a-pair-of-interesting-late-night-red-wings-listens-from-the-fan-590

I agree about Abby on the top line, and I also agree about Babs being tempted to put him up there. Sort of why I want us to clear up cap space and sign a legit top line FA as a temporary stop gap. Just so that it's clear who our top six will be.

[number9 3,297]

Actually being bad for awhile getting really high draft picks and dining a key free agent or two is the tripe for succes look at us Chicago and Pittsburgh. Being terrible for a period helped each team become what they were. Detroit got Stevie y and a few key trades like shanahan then continued to draft talent with later picks. Pittsburgh got Crosby and malkin. Chicago got toews and Kane.

So to me it seems somewhat clear. You tank and get a superstar to become relevant but then need a competent front office to continue and build upon that success.

Except then you look at us, STL, LAK, TBL, BOS, TOR, MTL, SJ, NYR, PHI, and you realize you don't have to tank to find success.

The tank method worked for PIT and CHI, but failed CBJ and EDM. That strategy is only for the most desperate teams who literally have nothing to build around, like BUF this year.

We have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Howard, Franzen, Alfredsson, and Nyquist. That's more than enough to build around once fat is trimmed.

[wings87 1,290]

Here's a working link:

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/a-pair-of-interesting-late-night-red-wings-listens-from-the-fan-590

I agree about Abby on the top line, and I also agree about Babs being tempted to put him up there. Sort of why I want us to clear up cap space and sign a legit top line FA as a temporary stop gap. Just so that it's clear who our top six will be.

What strikes me the most is that Tatar isn't mentioned at all during the interview, especial when Holland is talking about the PP. Don't know if he did it intentionally or just forgot about him, but just seems weird that Tatar wasn't mentioned.

[kipwinger 8,524]

What strikes me the most is that Tatar isn't mentioned at all during the interview, especial when Holland is talking about the PP. Don't know if he did it intentionally or just forgot about him, but just seems weird that Tatar wasn't mentioned.

He definitely mentioned him. He spoke briefly about how Nyquist and Tatar were guys that they expected to be on the team, but then he transitioned quickly to talking about Sheahan and Jurco. But you're right, he didn't mention Tatar in the context of the PP. I didn't listen to the Draper interview since I'm ostensibly "at work" and therefore theoretically should "do my job" and "not read about hockey all day". But it's a govt. job...so I would be doing a disservice to everyone if I wasn't being a good for nothing strain on the American taxpayers teet right?

[wings87 1,290]

He definitely mentioned him. He spoke briefly about how Nyquist and Tatar were guys that they expected to be on the team, but then he transitioned quickly to talking about Sheahan and Jurco. But you're right, he didn't mention Tatar in the context of the PP. I didn't listen to the Draper interview since I'm ostensibly "at work" and therefore theoretically should "do my job" and "not read about hockey all day". But it's a govt. job...so I would be doing a disservice to everyone if I wasn't being a good for nothing strain on the American taxpayers teet right?

Shhhh, big brother might hear you.

Your right he mentioned Tatar, but it was so brief, I just missed it.

Edited March 20, 2014 by wings87

[Guest DeGraa55]

Except then you look at us, STL, LAK, TBL, BOS, TOR, MTL, SJ, NYR, PHI, and you realize you don't have to tank to find success.

The tank method worked for PIT and CHI, but failed CBJ and EDM. That strategy is only for the most desperate teams who literally have nothing to build around, like BUF this year.

We have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Howard, Franzen, Alfredsson, and Nyquist. That's more than enough to build around once fat is trimmed.

I'm mostly looking at Stanley cup teams. And weren't the kings pretty bad to not too long ago? Same with stl and Colorado.

And it don't work with edm and Florida for example because they're missing the next key ingredient. A good front office and coaching etc etc. using the wings for example.

We were terrible drafted Stevie y and others. And thanks to having a great front office and coaching an scouting. We were able to draft arts with crappy picks and make some key trades which allowed us to continue our success for so long.

And some of the other good teams that have good management is a reason why they maintain success. Teams like Mtl nyr boston and I personally feel Colorado will now be successful again for a decade or two.

You can't JUST TANK and expect to win. You need more then just that.

Also I'm NOT saying we should tank. I agree with what you said we need to trim the fat and add a few key pieces. The argument is WILL HOLLAND EVER ACTUALLY ******* DO IT?

And with what you guys said about Holland complimenting Quincey I'm now scared he will be brought back.

Edited March 20, 2014 by DeGraa55

[Echolalia 2,961]

He definitely mentioned him. He spoke briefly about how Nyquist and Tatar were guys that they expected to be on the team, but then he transitioned quickly to talking about Sheahan and Jurco. But you're right, he didn't mention Tatar in the context of the PP. I didn't listen to the Draper interview since I'm ostensibly "at work" and therefore theoretically should "do my job" and "not read about hockey all day". But it's a govt. job...so I would be doing a disservice to everyone if I wasn't being a good for nothing strain on the American taxpayers teet right?

As far as I'm concerned I help pay your salary, and thus I feel I have a valid say in the matter.

Read up on hockey.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

What does everyone think it'll take to resign our key rfa's??? I personally hope we can get dekeyser to the type of deal kronwall got prior ..... 5yrs x3 mill so we don't have to worry about him for a while

Don't know if he take it , but then again he hasn't proved he should be getting 4+ mill