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GMRwings1983

No Scoring and No Fighting

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It's not just about the enforcers per se it's about the whole package. Hits are way down, hipchecks ? Almost gone and even if people are doing them perfectly they'll get a hearing or suspended I mean WTF this is a league that has seen guys like Stevens lay out guys left and right and the fans got pumped up cheered , fans from the opposing team had real enemies to hate and also guys that would take care of business ON the ice i.e the crowd was entertained. Kronwall has gone from one of my favorite Wings to someone I wouldn't care if we trade him (mind everyone I really like the guy) but the guy used to bring an element that made other teams aware when he was one the ice and provided fans - of an otherwise boring and softish team - with enjoyment. Without hits, fighting what's left to cheer for ? Yes goals and nice saves ok...sounds very entertaining compard to the whole package of fights, hits, goals, saves, line brawls and seeing a bunch of HHOF lines play on ONE team and showing off their chemistry and skills.. This is league is going in the wrong direction and yet the GM meetings aren't fighting against that trend. There is nothing barbaric about enforcers taking care of business if rats are taking advantage of star or smaller players. If Benn is tough enough to punch Z four times in the head he is also tough enough to answer to McGrattan, Colton Orr instead of a suit who has his office based in New York (i.e. Quintal). I really hope the ratings continue to go down till the owners decide it's time to clean house and bring back hockey to it's roots. Another point is this: Sadly the league is more concerned about NON fans than the fans that are actually going to the games and following the game already, I Mean seriously ? If people think the game is too violent and to hard to take part in guess what find another sport and hopefully be happy with it.

But Frank, its not just fans or non fans that are moving it in this direction and thinking the game is too violent, its former players and former fighters.

Just from doing a quick Google search the lawsuit launched this past February came up. http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Adams-v-NHL-COMPLAINT-as-filed-02-09-15-2.pdf

Here is a list of players suing the NHL (in this lawsuit):

Greg Adams; Rick Be

rry; Richard Brodeur;

Shawn Chambers; To

dd Elik; Robert

Goring; Mark Hardy;

Michael Hartman;

Todd Harvey; Tony Horacek; Garry

Howatt; Dave Hutchinson; Jean Francois

Jomphe; Edward Kennedy; Mike Lalor;

Darren Langdon; Emmanuel Legace; Jamie

Lundmark; Sergio Mo

messo; Jeff Parker;

Stephen Patrick; Cr

aig Redmond; Terry

Ruskowski; Brian Savage; Jeffrey

Shevalier; Turner

Stevenson; German

Titov; Todd Warriner; Vernon Westfall

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It's not just about the enforcers per se it's about the whole package. Hits are way down, hipchecks ? Almost gone and even if people are doing them perfectly they'll get a hearing or suspended I mean WTF this is a league that has seen guys like Stevens lay out guys left and right and the fans got pumped up cheered , fans from the opposing team had real enemies to hate and also guys that would take care of business ON the ice i.e the crowd was entertained. Kronwall has gone from one of my favorite Wings to someone I wouldn't care if we trade him (mind everyone I really like the guy) but the guy used to bring an element that made other teams aware when he was one the ice and provided fans - of an otherwise boring and softish team - with enjoyment. Without hits, fighting what's left to cheer for ? Yes goals and nice saves ok...sounds very entertaining compard to the whole package of fights, hits, goals, saves, line brawls and seeing a bunch of HHOF lines play on ONE team and showing off their chemistry and skills.. This is league is going in the wrong direction and yet the GM meetings aren't fighting against that trend. There is nothing barbaric about enforcers taking care of business if rats are taking advantage of star or smaller players. If Benn is tough enough to punch Z four times in the head he is also tough enough to answer to McGrattan, Colton Orr instead of a suit who has his office based in New York (i.e. Quintal). I really hope the ratings continue to go down till the owners decide it's time to clean house and bring back hockey to it's roots. Another point is this: Sadly the league is more concerned about NON fans than the fans that are actually going to the games and following the game already, I Mean seriously ? If people think the game is too violent and to hard to take part in guess what find another sport and hopefully be happy with it.

Joseph Conrad would be proud of this paragraph.

There's a flaw in your reasoning. Just because there's less 30 and 40 goal scorers doesn't necessarily mean there's less scoring. To me, it means the defensive side of the has improved so that teams have learned to neutralize stars so that they can't rack up the goals.

You'd have to look total league-wide goals scored to see if scoring is up or down. I found this chart for average goals per game:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

It actually shows that scoring has been pretty steady. Especially for the past 5 years. This current period is actually up from 97-03. 05-09 was a bit higher. After 1996 is the point where scoring dropped off significantly. Since then, it's been down, up then settled between the two levels. It doesn't fit so well into your "league is becoming less and less exciting" argument.

So you don't mind having a league where star players are being neutralized and only 15 players score 30 freaking goals? How is that good for the game and growing stars for the general public? It isn't.

Sure I'll take that concussion or broken bone or some other lifelong debilitating injury so Joe blow can be extremely happy...for 5 seconds.

Speed and defense wins games. If you want to watch goons, watch wrestling.

I guess you ignored the scoring part of my argument. Speed isn't scoring goals right now.

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"But the fans! The entertainment!"

GMs couldn't give less of a s***. It's all about winning.

I'd like to think it's both winning, and entertainment.

I'd say the vast majority of Detroit Red Wing fans (including those who don't visit this site) would agree that the Cup winning teams from the 90's were much more entertaining than what we had in 2008.

Edited by F.Michael

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You forgot the instigator rule.

As barbaric as it may sound - the notion of getting pummeled by an opposing teams enforcer kept some players on their best behavior.

I would get rid of the instigator rule. I didn't mention it because I think the lack of big time scorers and lack of fighting in general has made the game less exciting. The instigator is a sidebar to that, although it is related to fighting obviously. But that rule has been in place for some time now.

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Fights are exciting and all, but I could live without them. I play hockey, and I have ZERO desire to fight. I was involved in a scrum on Sunday and did what I minimally needed to do to protect my teammates without escalating the situation. I know it's a little different between my s***ty D-League and the NHL, but fighting just seems like it's a part of tradition, but not a needed element for hockey.

As to low scoring, I like that. I love 1-0 and 2-1 games.

If I could make any changes to hockey I would:

Switch to a three-point system, Win = 3 points, Loss = 0 points, Overtime/shootout win = 2 points, overtime/shootout loss = 1 point

Change overtime so that there are less shoutouts (make it longer, go down to three on three after a while, etc...)

I just really hate all the "loser points" that are generated in the games that go to overtime and shootout. It's unfair that extra points are generated in these games.

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I'd like to think it's both winning, and entertainment.

I'd say the vast majority of Detroit Red Wing fans (including those who don't visit this site) would agree that the Cup winning teams from the 90's were much more entertaining than what we had in 2008.

Just look at this forum. there are or where thousands of members. But most are gone now and maybe 40-50 ever post anymore. Mods feel free to add traffic numbers to this.

I used to look forward to watching the RW's on TV-man I miss gary thorne but that is a side issue, now I fall asleep half of the time. This team is boring as hell to watch. Some of the best games the past few years are when the west coast teams hook up. Kings-Ducks-Sharks. All are big, fast, physical, and have as much skill as anyone does. Which brings me to college hockey. I am a huge Michigan fan and I never watch college hockey. It is boring. Always has been. On the West side of the state, we have/had the same issue with the Griffins. Going to the VA to watch a game can and will involve sleeping. Boring games where no one touches each other, an arena that is overly PC, and a crowd that largely is there for something to do before they hit the bars downtown. Games at LC Walker in Muskegon have always been more fun.

Long story short in the game has lost something. some of it is the fact the RW's are not a dominate team anymore and we are effected by that. But the game itself isn't the same.

Fights are exciting and all, but I could live without them. I play hockey, and I have ZERO desire to fight. I was involved in a scrum on Sunday and did what I minimally needed to do to protect my teammates without escalating the situation. I know it's a little different between my s***ty D-League and the NHL, but fighting just seems like it's a part of tradition, but not a needed element for hockey.

As to low scoring, I like that. I love 1-0 and 2-1 games.

If I could make any changes to hockey I would:

Switch to a three-point system, Win = 3 points, Loss = 0 points, Overtime/shootout win = 2 points, overtime/shootout loss = 1 point

Change overtime so that there are less shoutouts (make it longer, go down to three on three after a while, etc...)

I just really hate all the "loser points" that are generated in the games that go to overtime and shootout. It's unfair that extra points are generated in these games.

Get rid of the points all together. Every game has a winner and loser, so just go back to tracking wins and loses. So simple.......

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Get rid of the points all together. Every game has a winner and loser, so just go back to tracking wins and loses. So simple.......

What do you do about games that are tied after 60 minutes? Regular season games can't be allowed to go into triple-overtime, for many reasons. I do like having the lengthy overtimes being something that is special to the playoffs.

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I didn't read every other post (sorry) so this might've got said already.. But, I've always thought/agreed that a good way to increase scoring would be to not allow teams that take penalties to ice the puck. Why reward teams for breaking a rule by allowing them break another rule? It never made much sense to me and would increase power play scoring.

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Just look at this forum. there are or where thousands of members. But most are gone now and maybe 40-50 ever post anymore. Mods feel free to add traffic numbers to this.

I used to look forward to watching the RW's on TV-man I miss gary thorne but that is a side issue, now I fall asleep half of the time. This team is boring as hell to watch. Some of the best games the past few years are when the west coast teams hook up. Kings-Ducks-Sharks. All are big, fast, physical, and have as much skill as anyone does. Which brings me to college hockey. I am a huge Michigan fan and I never watch college hockey. It is boring. Always has been. On the West side of the state, we have/had the same issue with the Griffins. Going to the VA to watch a game can and will involve sleeping. Boring games where no one touches each other, an arena that is overly PC, and a crowd that largely is there for something to do before they hit the bars downtown. Games at LC Walker in Muskegon have always been more fun.

Long story short in the game has lost something. some of it is the fact the RW's are not a dominate team anymore and we are effected by that. But the game itself isn't the same.

Get rid of the points all together. Every game has a winner and loser, so just go back to tracking wins and loses. So simple.......

Years ago I used to look forward to Red Wing games on Sportschannel, and ESPN.

Maybe it was because there were so few games for those living outside of Michigan who could watch when they were on national tv, but maybe I looked forward to these games for the excitement that they brought as well (now I'm spoiled with DirecTV, and the Center Ice package).

I honestly don't have the enthusiasm as I did years ago, and truth be told much of it lies within the fact that I find this team a bit dry...Up until the recent dismantling - the Bruins for the better portion of 3 seasons were 1 of the more entertaining teams to watch since they reminded me of our Wings from years ago...It also helps that I find Jack Edwards an entertaining 'homer'.

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I share the same sentiment on scoring, but in terms of leaders, it really is no different than last year. The one real difference was Crosby getting mono. He wont the scoring title by 17pts last year, the rest of the leaders were still only in the mid-80s or so. There was still only one 50 goal scorer (and that was only at 51 goals). There were still only 2 more 40 goal scorers and then only another 18 - 30 goal scorers.

So, looking at last year, some would argue that Crosby played the last quarter of the season with an injured wrist and maybe he would have been able to put up closer to 120pts, but even if that was the case, you'd still be left with one guy putting up those points, everyone else, not only sub-100, but sub-90. I know the days of Gretzky putting up close to 200pts are long gone, but I'd like to see more than what I'm seeing. If there is going to be a guy that separates himself from the rest of the pack consistently (like Crosby), I'd want to see him putting up more significant numbers. If everyone is more close, than I'm fine with that leader only getting 110, let's say, but there should be a handful more just behind that at 105, 107, etc.

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How many times did Konstantinov fight someone like Twist, Grimson, Domi, Odjick, etc.?

Goons rarely fought the guys who hurt their player, they fought the other team's goon, whose job it was to protect HIS teammate.

Having a bunch of tough guys on the team didn't keep LePuke from drilling Draper into the boards face first. All it did was give Wings fans a sense of retribution when McCarty beat LePuke into a pulp. That wouldn't have been necessary if the league had suspended him instead of basically telling the Wings to handle it themselves. Kocur, McCarty, and Lapointe didn't keep Dale Hunter from bouncing Yzerman's head on the ice in the '98 finals. If you get to the NHL because you hit people, piss them off, and occasionally go over the line and hurt someone, you're not going to stop doing that because once or twice a year you might have to fight a guy who's going to wipe the ice with you. You keep playing the way that got you to the NHL and take your lumps when you can't avoid it.

What fighting does:

Entertains fans

Gives the team and fans a sense of retribution when the bad guy does get beaten

What fighting doesn't do:

Prevent cheap shots

Get the bad guy beaten regularly

Promote long term health and welfare of the players

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I didn't read every other post (sorry) so this might've got said already.. But, I've always thought/agreed that a good way to increase scoring would be to not allow teams that take penalties to ice the puck. Why reward teams for breaking a rule by allowing them break another rule? It never made much sense to me and would increase power play scoring.

If increased scoring means more powerplay goals, than I'm not really a fan. Powerplays ruin the flow of the game.

Besides, not allowing icing on the PK would be the biggest rule change in decades in the NHL. I don't see it happening.

Years ago I used to look forward to Red Wing games on Sportschannel, and ESPN.

Maybe it was because there were so few games for those living outside of Michigan who could watch when they were on national tv, but maybe I looked forward to these games for the excitement that they brought as well (now I'm spoiled with DirecTV, and the Center Ice package).

I honestly don't have the enthusiasm as I did years ago, and truth be told much of it lies within the fact that I find this team a bit dry...Up until the recent dismantling - the Bruins for the better portion of 3 seasons were 1 of the more entertaining teams to watch since they reminded me of our Wings from years ago...It also helps that I find Jack Edwards an entertaining 'homer'.

This team is more dry than straight gin. But this thread wasn't about the Wings as much as the league in general being kind of dry.

How many times did Konstantinov fight someone like Twist, Grimson, Domi, Odjick, etc.?

Goons rarely fought the guys who hurt their player, they fought the other team's goon, whose job it was to protect HIS teammate.

Having a bunch of tough guys on the team didn't keep LePuke from drilling Draper into the boards face first. All it did was give Wings fans a sense of retribution when McCarty beat LePuke into a pulp. That wouldn't have been necessary if the league had suspended him instead of basically telling the Wings to handle it themselves. Kocur, McCarty, and Lapointe didn't keep Dale Hunter from bouncing Yzerman's head on the ice in the '98 finals. If you get to the NHL because you hit people, piss them off, and occasionally go over the line and hurt someone, you're not going to stop doing that because once or twice a year you might have to fight a guy who's going to wipe the ice with you. You keep playing the way that got you to the NHL and take your lumps when you can't avoid it.

What fighting does:

Entertains fans

Gives the team and fans a sense of retribution when the bad guy does get beaten

What fighting doesn't do:

Prevent cheap shots

Get the bad guy beaten regularly

Promote long term health and welfare of the players

This thread is about entertainment, though. The Wings/Avs rivalry was entertaining, not just because of skill but because of the fighting. That drew fans toward the games.

How many rivalries now do that?

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If increased scoring means more powerplay goals, than I'm not really a fan. Powerplays ruin the flow of the game.

Besides, not allowing icing on the PK would be the biggest rule change in decades in the NHL. I don't see it happening.

This team is more dry than straight gin. But this thread wasn't about the Wings as much as the league in general being kind of dry.

This thread is about entertainment, though. The Wings/Avs rivalry was entertaining, not just because of skill but because of the fighting. That drew fans toward the games.

How many rivalries now do that?

Off topic question. Who wins in a back alley street fight, McGratton or Lesnar?

Note: Paul Heyman does not get to interfere in this hypothetical altercation.

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So you don't mind having a league where star players are being neutralized and only 15 players score 30 freaking goals? How is that good for the game and growing stars for the general public? It isn't.

No, I actually don't mind. Datsyuk's a star to me and hardly ever has scored 30. Each team still has stars to their own fanbase that latch onto. It's not dependant on them being 30 goal scorers. Price and Subban here in Montreal, Karlsson and - this year - Hammond in Ottawa. They're all stars to the general public. The game is probably as popular as ever (I do live in Montreal, mind you). It also makes the feat by Ovechkin all the more impressive when there aren't a lot of guys able to do it. A star is brighter when in contrast to it's surroundings.

A side note: It will also be better for the Wings moving forward. If scoring has been spread throughout the lineups instead of dependant on 1 or 2 stars then we'll be better off with our future lineup of balanced scoring.

As for fighting, I can't enjoy it now knowing all that it has caused former fighters. I know a lot of people that feel the same way.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Off topic question. Who wins in a back alley street fight, McGratton or Lesnar?

Note: Paul Heyman does not get to interfere in this hypothetical altercation.

Have to go with Lesnar. McGrattan is the best fighter in hockey, though. He's only fought one fight in the AHL this season because nobody wants to challenge him.

No, I actually don't mind. Datsyuk's a star to me and hardly ever has scored 30. Each team still has stars to their own fanbase that latch onto. It's not dependant on them being 30 goal scorers. Price and Subban here in Montreal, Karlsson and - this year - Hammond in Ottawa. They're all stars to the general public. The game is probably as popular as ever (I do live in Montreal, mind you). It also makes the feat by Ovechkin all the more impressive when there aren't a lot of guys able to do it. A star is brighter when in contrast to it's surroundings.

A side note: It will also be better for the Wings moving forward. If scoring has been spread throughout the lineups instead of dependant on 1 or 2 stars then we'll be better off with our future lineup of balanced scoring.

As for fighting, I can't enjoy it now knowing all that it has caused former fighters. I know a lot of people that feel the same way.

But the NHL is always trying to grow the game beyond its niche. The only thing that ends up growing, though, is the goalies' equipment.

As a side note, Datsyuk would easily hit 100 points if he played in a different era and had real linemates.

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I'd go with Lesnar too guy is a former UFC hw champ .

As far as scoring: I didn't think the 8:2 (Kings Oilers) or 9:1 (Preds Leafs) was entertaining. This while scoring debate has only gotten some legs because Crosby didn't run away points wise this season...ok no one scored 100 points so what?

I'm looking at the whole package and it just isn't the same. Tight games are great but they also need some other elements to it like big hits, fights, enemies, great saves (thankfully they are there) and a bunch of HHOF players showing off their skill.

Edited by frankgrimes

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I'd go with Lesnar too guy is a former UFC hw champ . As far as scoring: I didn't think the 8:2 (Kings Oilers) or 9:1 (Preds Leafs) was entertaining. This while scoring debate has only gotten some legs because Crosby didn't run away points wise this season...ok no one scored 100 points so what? I'm looking at the whole package and it just isn't the same. Tight games are great but they also need some other elements to it like big hits, fights, enemies, great saves (thankfully they are there) and a bunch of HHOF players showing off their skill.

Speaking of the HHOF, that's why I think a guy like Datsyuk will get in easily. If 1,000 points was still used as the barometer to make it in, only a few guys who came into the league post 2005 would make the HHOF.

Two players scoring 40 goals is pitiful. That's several years in a row now this sad pattern has happened.

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I'd go with Lesnar too guy is a former UFC hw champ . As far as scoring: I didn't think the 8:2 (Kings Oilers) or 9:1 (Preds Leafs) was entertaining. This while scoring debate has only gotten some legs because Crosby didn't run away points wise this season...ok no one scored 100 points so what? I'm looking at the whole package and it just isn't the same. Tight games are great but they also need some other elements to it like big hits, fights, enemies, great saves (thankfully they are there) and a bunch of HHOF players showing off their skill.

Speaking of the HHOF, that's why I think a guy like Datsyuk will get in easily. If 1,000 points was still used as the barometer to make it in, only a few guys who came into the league post 2005 would make the HHOF.

Two players scoring 40 goals is pitiful. That's several years in a row now this sad pattern has happened.

Keep in mind Seguin would have reached it too he missed almost a month with an injury. Pasha just like Sundin will have to wait a bit but I think he will get in at some point.

There are teams like Ottawa, Anaheim with balanced scoring...Also keep in mind that forwards nowadays are at least trying to be defensively responsible and willing to sacrifice some points to help a team out.

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Have to go with Lesnar. McGrattan is the best fighter in hockey, though. He's only fought one fight in the AHL this season because nobody wants to challenge him.

It wouldn't even be close, Lesnar is a freak of nature. I would pay money to see Lesnar on skates give McGrattan an F5 though! Then if you had Heyman skate out to cut a promo, best moment ever! lol.

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