Abby Signs 7-year, 29.75 mil Extension

[Bannedforlife 403]

I don't really think that Abby had Holland over a barrel though. I think the contract is a little long sure. But I don't think Holland had no choice. If he'd have played hardball he surely could have gotten Abby down on term. It's not like Abdelkader wants to play anywhere else. He's "all in" on the Red Wings mythos. I think Holland gave Abby a long term deal because A) he knows and believes that Abby is a future team leader, B) He's doing the hometown kid a solid for putting in an honest effort every single day, C) he's sending a message to future high end players that he'll scratch their backs in the long run if they cut him a break on their bridge contracts.

I think Holland could have sent the same message without the NMC. All it does is limit our options down the road and that's just dumb.

Its like Holland's computer autofills the NMC portion into all of his contracts and he doesnt know how to turn that feature off.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Bannedforlife

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Holland > Nill > Yzerman

In terms of career accomplishments as GM. Not based on the present, or even the recent past.

[Internet.Unknown 422]

You know what Ken Holland was doing during the fabled class of 1989 draft? Scouting and drafting them. He was the Director of Amateur Scouting. You know what those other guys where doing for the Wings organization in 1989? Nothing. They didn't work here yet.

If you're going to attribute his success to that class, fine. Give him credit for scouting and drafting them since, ya know, he did that. He's literally the only person you mentioned who had anything at all to do with getting those guys into Red Wings sweaters.

Who's the Director of Amateur Scouting now?

Look, I didn't say Holland sucks. I said there were numerous factors and people that have contributed to his success. He's not the "OMG Greatest GM EVA!!!" nor is he the turd some make him out to be.

If people can argue that Babcock should have won more Cups in his time in Detroit, the same can be said for Holland.

Nill passed on drafting Larkin and chose Julius Honka. Honka could be really good too, but so far Holland's winning vs. Nill in drafting since he left because of this decision.

The argument that Holland's success was due to others is one that can't be proven or disproven. There's no way that you know what happened behind closed doors so making that statement is just based on biased rather than fact. Think what you want to think.

No. Nill negotiated the Z deal and Datsyuk made his own deal because he's magic. Holland is responsible for Franzen's deal because people hate that guy.

Thirteen other teams passed on Larkin too. Happens every year in the draft.

[Bill Berzeench 310]

Who's the Director of Amateur Scouting now?

Look, I didn't say Holland sucks. I said there were numerous factors and people that have contributed to his success. He's not the "OMG Greatest GM EVA!!!" nor is he the turd some make him out to be.

If people can argue that Babcock should have won more Cups in his time in Detroit, the same can be said for Holland.

Thirteen other teams passed on Larkin too. Happens every year in the draft.

We passed on PK SuSubn twice. Im not blaming any of our drafting misses on Holland. Im not giving him credit for the hits either, though. I will admit the point about him having good people around him is a credit to him is more than valid. Its a great point. I just believe he fell ass backwords into having great people around him. Devellano is widely creditex for Feds, Lids, Konstantinov, etc. Andersson is widely credited for Darlts, Z, etc. Holland has just been in the right chair for 20 years. Now that the help is almost all gone, Holland's lack of ability is sticking out like a sore thumb. The hometown discount is gone (Abby), and Holland overpays for crappy old injury prone vets on a regular basis (too many to name in the last 5 years). Ken Holland is exposed now.

[kipwinger 8,755]

Who's the Director of Amateur Scouting now?

Look, I didn't say Holland sucks. I said there were numerous factors and people that have contributed to his success. He's not the "OMG Greatest GM EVA!!!" nor is he the turd some make him out to be.

If people can argue that Babcock should have won more Cups in his time in Detroit, the same can be said for Holland.

Tyler Wright. And he deserves the lion's share of the draft successes and failures since 2013 (mostly successes). That's how it works. If Holland is in charge of scouting and drafting players in 1989 (he was) and we have a ton of success in that area, then he gets the credit. If he's in charge of putting together an NHL roster (and he has been since 1997), and we go to the playoffs every year, the Cup finals 5 times, and win 4 championships, then he deserves credit.

Holland is demonstrably the most successful GM in the NHL. By a mile. More championships, more wins, more playoffs, more everything. The core of the teams he won with were scouted, drafted, and developed by him. The key free agent acquisitions during that time? Him too. Aside from hiring Scotty Bowman and drafting Yzerman, there was not a single part of those dynasty teams that wasn't directly the result of Ken Holland.

Lidstrom, Fedorov, Osgood, McCarty, Konstantinov, Larionov, Fetisov, Shanahan, Hasek, Chelios, Hull, Robitaile. All of them were Red Wings, in one way or another, as a result of Ken Holland.

And he has the rings to show for it. Four of them.

I think Holland could have sent the same message without the NMC. All it does is limit our options down the road and that's just dumb.

Its like Holland's computer autofills the NMC portion into all of his contracts and he doesnt know how to turn that feature off.

Maybe. But I think people get too hung up on the NTCs. I've been guilty of it too, so I'm not pointing fingers.

Who cares if he gives an NTC to a guy he's never going to trade in the first place? It's a bad idea to give one to Mikael Samuelsson. It's not a bad idea to give one to Abby. Holland has no intention of trading him, ever, so why not give him one in exchange for a smaller dollar amount? It's just negotiating leverage.

Edited November 13, 2015 by kipwinger

[rick zombo 3,739]

We passed on PK SuSubn twice. Im not blaming any of our drafting misses on Holland. Im not giving him credit for the hits either, though. I will admit the point about him having good people around him is a credit to him is more than valid. Its a great point. I just believe he fell ass backwords into having great people around him. Devellano is widely creditex for Feds, Lids, Konstantinov, etc. Andersson is widely credited for Darlts, Z, etc. Holland has just been in the right chair for 20 years. Now that the help is almost all gone, Holland's lack of ability is sticking out like a sore thumb. The hometown discount is gone (Abby), and Holland overpays for crappy old injury prone vets on a regular basis (too many to name in the last 5 years). Ken Holland is exposed now.

You could say that about any NHL GM.

Yzerman? He inherited Hedman and Stamkos.

Nill? He wasn't the genius that drafted Benn and Klingberg in the 5th rounds.

Sure, Holland took over a team full of future HOFers but that was 17 years ago. And the man hasn't had a bad season by any NHL GM's standards EVER. Who even compares? Sather? Lamoriello? They had their share of terrible failure years and made some crappy moves and signings. How about lil' Bowman? He may be enjoying sexy times right now (big thanks to Dale Talon) but let's talk about him in 10 years.

Holland may not have been the best GM last week or in June of this year or two minutes ago, but he is, generally speaking one of the 5 best GMs in the NHL right now, and the best GM over the last 20 years. I M O.

Edited November 13, 2015 by rick zombo

[Shaman 713]

You could say that about any NHL GM.

Yzerman? He inherited Hedman and Stamkos.

Nill? He wasn't the genius that drafted Benn and Klingberg in the 5th rounds.

Sure, Holland took over a team full of future HOFers but that was 17 years ago. And the man hasn't had a bad season by any NHL GM's standards EVER. Who even compares? Sather? Lamoriello? They had their share of terrible failure years and made some crappy moves and signings. How about lil' Bowman? He may be enjoying sexy times right now (big thanks to Dale Talon) but let's talk about him in 10 years.

Holland may not have been the best GM last week or in June of this year or two minutes ago, but he is, generally speaking one of the 5 best GMs in the NHL right now, and the best GM over the last 20 years. I M O.

First Holland is in the bottom half of GMs in the last 5 years. Too many defenders use his past to defend him, but in sports yesterday is meaningless. It's today that counts. We have to ask ourselves today is this team likely to contend for a cup? And if not are they likely to in the near future (next 5 years). The answer to both of these questions so far is a resounding NO. The team lacks a lot of pieces that are necessary to compete for a cup, and the pieces they have are either getting close to retirement age (Kronwall, Datsyuk, Zetterberg), or are too young to make an impact big enough to replace those who will retire. This is made worse by the fact that Holland has overpaid for replaceable players, which teams like Chicago have shown are exactly the type you can flip for younger cheaper players.

Until Holland does anything to show he's fallen into bubble team complacency he is a mediocre GM as it stands today.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Thirteen other teams passed on Larkin too. Happens every year in the draft.

Yeah, so credit go to our scouts and GM for recognizing a great player. We missed out on Subban. Credit to Montreal for recognize a potentially great player. That's what good drafting is. I don't think your statement says anything at all.

We passed on PK SuSubn twice. Im not blaming any of our drafting misses on Holland. Im not giving him credit for the hits either, though. I will admit the point about him having good people around him is a credit to him is more than valid. Its a great point. I just believe he fell ass backwords into having great people around him. Devellano is widely creditex for Feds, Lids, Konstantinov, etc. Andersson is widely credited for Darlts, Z, etc. Holland has just been in the right chair for 20 years. Now that the help is almost all gone, Holland's lack of ability is sticking out like a sore thumb. The hometown discount is gone (Abby), and Holland overpays for crappy old injury prone vets on a regular basis (too many to name in the last 5 years). Ken Holland is exposed now.

The moldy figs (Cleary, Modano, Sammuelsson) were for a transitioning team while we built up and developed our prospects. Now that that period is coming to fruition and we have some great young players on the team and soon to be. I think you will see less of older vet signings.

[rick zombo 3,739]

First Holland is in the bottom half of GMs in the last 5 years. Too many defenders use his past to defend him, but in sports yesterday is meaningless. It's today that counts. We have to ask ourselves today is this team likely to contend for a cup? And if not are they likely to in the near future (next 5 years). The answer to both of these questions so far is a resounding NO. The team lacks a lot of pieces that are necessary to compete for a cup, and the pieces they have are either getting close to retirement age (Kronwall, Datsyuk, Zetterberg), or are too young to make an impact big enough to replace those who will retire. This is made worse by the fact that Holland has overpaid for replaceable players, which teams like Chicago have shown are exactly the type you can flip for younger cheaper players.

Until Holland does anything to show he's fallen into bubble team complacency he is a mediocre GM as it stands today.

LOL Holland's in the bottom half of NHL GMs in the last 5 years? GTFO.

Anyway, I thought you only came out of your cave to post in game day threads, specifially when the team's losing.

[kipwinger 8,755]

First Holland is in the bottom half of GMs in the last 5 years. Too many defenders use his past to defend him, but in sports yesterday is meaningless. It's today that counts. We have to ask ourselves today is this team likely to contend for a cup? And if not are they likely to in the near future (next 5 years). The answer to both of these questions so far is a resounding NO. The team lacks a lot of pieces that are necessary to compete for a cup, and the pieces they have are either getting close to retirement age (Kronwall, Datsyuk, Zetterberg), or are too young to make an impact big enough to replace those who will retire. This is made worse by the fact that Holland has overpaid for replaceable players, which teams like Chicago have shown are exactly the type you can flip for younger cheaper players.

Until Holland does anything to show he's fallen into bubble team complacency he is a mediocre GM as it stands today.

Make the playoffs for the last five years. Bottom half of GMs. Lol. Only on LGW.

Sure, Holland took over a team full of future HOFers but that was 17 years ago. And the man hasn't had a bad season by any NHL GM's standards EVER. Who even compares? Sather? Lamoriello? They had their share of terrible failure years and made some crappy moves and signings. How about lil' Bowman? He may be enjoying sexy times right now (big thanks to Dale Talon) but let's talk about him in 10 years.

Holland may not have been the best GM last week or in June of this year or two minutes ago, but he is, generally speaking one of the 5 best GMs in the NHL right now, and the best GM over the last 20 years. I M O.

Again, just to clarify. Holland "took over" a team full of Hall of Famers that HE DRAFTED. And then he acquired like 5 more Hall of Famers. The only Hall of Famer he had nothing to do with was Yzerman.

Edited November 13, 2015 by kipwinger

[rick zombo 3,739]

Make the playoffs for the last five years. Bottom half of GMs. Lol. Only on LGW.

Because of Babcock. Who was hired by Devallano because Nill told him too.

Again, just to clarify. Holland "took over" a team full of Hall of Famers that HE DRAFTED. And then he acquired like 5 more Hall of Famers. The only Hall of Famer he had nothing to do with was Yzerman.

And Shanahan. Bowman orchestrated that deal. Using Primeau, who Holland drafted, as an asset.

[Shaman 713]

Make the playoffs for the last five years. Bottom half of GMs. Lol. Only on LGW.

Again, just to clarify. Holland "took over" a team full of Hall of Famers that HE DRAFTED. And then he acquired like 5 more Hall of Famers. The only Hall of Famer he had nothing to do with was Yzerman.

First, over half of teams make the playoffs. Second, GMs on a rebuilding team may be better than a team that is limping into the playoffs year after year and getting bounced early. No one is questioning his ability to facilitate scouting of forwards, but for the last 8 years the team has been in a downward spiral with no signs of reversing. What has Holland done since 2010 to make this team take the step from bubble team/first round fodder to make them a legit contender?

[Jacksoni 418]

I know it's the Abdulkader thread, but regarding the Benn draft in round 5, damn that was a nice one. Almost Lidströmian.

Ehh meant to say Zetterbergian and Datsyukian (7th rounders).

Edited November 13, 2015 by Jacksoni

[kipwinger 8,755]

First, over half of teams make the playoffs. Second, GMs on a rebuilding team may be better than a team that is limping into the playoffs year after year and getting bounced early. No one is questioning his ability to facilitate scouting of forwards, but for the last 8 years the team has been in a downward spiral with no signs of reversing. What has Holland done since 2010 to make this team take the step from bubble team/first round fodder to make them a legit contender?

Which downward spiral? If anything we've plateaued. Plateaued as a playoff team. Which is hardly a "downward spiral".

Also, I think there are plenty of "signs of reversing". Nyquist, Dekeyser, Tatar, Larkin? Are those guys chopped liver? I thought they were top young players.

It seems like you're only going to be happy if Holland magically figures out how to transition from prime Datsyuk and Zetterberg to prime someone else without transitioning at all. Which is absurd.

Remember the four years between 2002 and 2006 when we were first and second round fodder for teams like Edmonton? All our established stars were getting old or leaving, and our young guys hadn't stepped up yet? We were in a downward spiral right?

Edited November 13, 2015 by kipwinger

[kipwinger 8,755]

And Shanahan. Bowman orchestrated that deal. Using Primeau, who Holland drafted, as an asset.

That's right, he was only the Assistant GM when Shanahan was acquired. I guess I was exaggerating a bit. He wasn't responsible for ALL of the Hall of Famers that played for Detroit during that period. Just most of them.

[rick zombo 3,739]

That's right, he was only the Assistant GM when Shanahan was acquired. I guess I was exaggerating a bit. He wasn't responsible for ALL of the Hall of Famers that played for Detroit during that period. Just most of them.

Exactly. Get it right

And we all know that being an assistant GM means jack squat around these parts unless you're Holland's assistant GM. Then you're the real mastermind.

[kipwinger 8,755]

Exactly. Get it right

And we all know that being an assistant GM means jack squat around these parts unless you're Holland's assistant GM. Then you're the real mastermind.

Lol. Apparently all Holland has to do to get some respect is to personally scout, draft, develop, acquire, train, and coach each and every player on the team. That's all. Totally reasonable.

[rick zombo 3,739]

Lol. Apparently all Holland has to do to get some respect is to personally scout, draft, develop, acquire, train, and coach each and every player on the team. That's all. Totally reasonable.

And contend for the cup every single year he's the GM.

And if he doesn't? BAMN!!! One of the 15 worst GMs in the NHL.

[Shaman 713]

Which downward spiral? If anything we've plateaued. Plateaued as a playoff team. Which is hardly a "downward spiral".

Also, I think there are plenty of "signs of reversing". Nyquist, Dekeyser, Tatar, Larkin? Are those guys chopped liver? I thought they were top young players.

It seems like you're only going to be happy if Holland magically figures out how to transition from prime Datsyuk and Zetterberg to prime someone else without transitioning at all. Which is absurd.

Remember the four years between 2002 and 2006 when we were first and second round fodder for teams like Edmonton? All our established stars were getting old or leaving, and our young guys hadn't stepped up yet? We were in a downward spiral right?

Nyquist and Tatar are nice wingers, but aside from Larkin, who isn't ready to be the main driver of a first line, who will replace Datsyuk and Zetterberg? If anything has become clear, the team doesn't have any center depth and it's leading to this team being dominated night in and out. When Yzerman et al were on the verge of retirement Zetterberg and Datsyuk already had 4-5 years in the league. Larkin, if we are lucky will have 2-3, and that's just one center. Defense? This team hasn't had a #1 since Lidstrom.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Shaman

[kipwinger 8,755]

Nyquist and Tatar are nice wingers, but aside from Larkin, who isn't ready to be the main driver of a first line, who will replace Datsyuk and Zetterberg? If anything has become clear, the team doesn't have any center depth and it's leading to this team being dominated night in and out. When Yzerman et al were on the verge of retirement Zetterberg and Datsyuk already had 4-5 years in the league. Larkin, if we are lucky will have 2-3, and that's just one center. Defense? This team hasn't had a #1 since Lidstrom.

Chicago seems to do pretty well with one elite center and a bunch of good wingers.

And I completely disagree about the defense too. Kronwall has consistently put up as good, or better, seasons that guys like Keith, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Suter. They're all obvious number 1 defensemen, but he's not?

Seems like you're deliberately distorting things in order to validate your premise, that Holland sucks. Our team isn't on a "downward spiral". We've had plenty of good talent over the years. We've got one of the best prospect pools in the league. And we're in a healthy cap situation.

Unless you're the one spinning it. In which case we're a cellar team, with a garbage prospect pool, and no future.

lol. Whatever man. You win. We suck.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

In terms of career accomplishments as GM. Not based on the present, or even the recent past.

They don't have anything to do with Abby and the extension but I will say this: 4 years and less to completely rebuild their teams and now look at Tampa and Dallas. The Captain and Nil have done a tremendous job and if we are only looking at the last 4 years yes better than Holland.

I don't know why people are bitching so much about Abby yeah the contract is on the higher side but so what? Mr. I is worth around 5 billion and the cap keeps going up it's not like Holland is paying him 6 mill over 7 years.

[rick zombo 3,739]

They don't have anything to do with Abby and the extension but I will say this: 4 years and less to completely rebuild their teams and now look at Tampa and Dallas. The Captain and Nil have done a tremendous job and if we are only looking at the last 4 years yes better than Holland.

I don't know why people are bitching so much about Abby yeah the contract is on the higher side but so what? Mr. I is worth around 5 billion and the cap keeps going up it's not like Holland is paying him 6 mill over 7 years.

Nill missed the playoffs last year and "The Captain" has an unsigned Stamkos and an 8-8-2 record to start this season. Holland made the playoffs every year since being named GM and is 8-6-2 so far this year without one of the league's best players.

I don't even know why I'm bothering to say this s***.

[Internet.Unknown 422]

Yeah, so credit go to our scouts and GM for recognizing a great player. We missed out on Subban. Credit to Montreal for recognize a potentially great player. That's what good drafting is. I don't think your statement says anything at all.

The moldy figs (Cleary, Modano, Sammuelsson) were for a transitioning team while we built up and developed our prospects. Now that that period is coming to fruition and we have some great young players on the team and soon to be. I think you will see less of older vet signings.

Actually, my statement said the same thing as yours.

Back on topic. Here's a perspective on Abby's deal, though I can already hear the Puck-Daddy-is-the-Helene-St-James-of-Yahoo-Sports cries.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/why-justin-abdelkader-s-extension-is-one-of-the-worst-contracts-in-the-nhl--trending-topics-193122954.html

[kipwinger 8,755]

I don't think Puck Daddy is the St. James of Yahoo. She's not critical at all. If anything, Puck Daddy (and especially Lambert) are OVERLY critical in an attempt to keep up their snarky, smartassy, personas.

[kipwinger 8,755]

Also, the thing that annoys me about articles like that is that it completely ignores the fact that contracts aren't given out for production only.

Nobody bats an eye when a player with good production (but a bad attitude) makes a little less than they otherwise would. That just seems normal. But it seems crazy to everyone involved when a guy with modest point production (but a great attitude) makes a little more than he otherwise would.

It's not the best contract on earth, but it's a far cry from the worst.