What if Datsyuk didn't leave for the KHL

[kickazz 5,459]

37 minutes ago, Buppy said:

So you acknowledge that Datsyuk had no actual obligation to continue playing for Wings...what exactly are you pissed about then? That the Wings, who were "screwed" either way, chose not to be spiteful?

He did have an obligation. It was either play for the Red Wings or retire from hockey. Retiring from hockey would mean no NHL and no KHL. If he went to play for KHL in 2015 Holland said he was going to "Exercise his rights and prevent him from playing in the KHL". If he played in 2015/16 they would have given him the greenlight to go to KHL and not take legal action. Is that so hard for you to understand? They avoided being screwed for 2 years rather than one. And I'm not pissed I'm pointing out facts. 

For the record they were choosing to be spiteful. They convinced him to stay in 2015 or else. If Datsyuk had his way he would have left in 2015. But he didn't. 

34:00 minutes till 37:00 exactly with Dana's question and Hollands response is basically saying what I am. 

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by kickazz

[Buppy 1,720]

9 minutes ago, kickazz said:

He did have an obligation. It was either play for the Red Wings or retire from hockey. Retiring from hockey would mean no NHL and no KHL. If he went to play for KHL in 2015 Holland said he was going to "Exercise his rights and prevent him from playing in the KHL". If he played in 2015/16 they wouldn't and give him the greenlight to go to KHL and not take legal action. Is that so hard for you to understand? They avoided being screwed for 2 years rather than one. And I'm not pissed I'm pointing out facts. 

For the record they were choosing to be spiteful. They convinced him to stay in 2015 or else. If Datsyuk had his way he would have left in 2015. But he didn't. 

If he had the option to not play for the Wings, then he obviously had no obligation to play for the Wings. The two are mutually exclusive. That the Wings could have been spiteful, or said they would in order to negotiate Datsyuk staying an extra year, really doesn't mean anything. 

Whether Datsyuk leaving was "a dick move" or not is subjective. There are no "facts" to point out in that regard.

[kickazz 5,459]

9 minutes ago, Buppy said:

If he had the option to not play for the Wings, then he obviously had no obligation to play for the Wings. The two are mutually exclusive. That the Wings could have been spiteful, or said they would in order to negotiate Datsyuk staying an extra year, really doesn't mean anything. 

Whether Datsyuk leaving was "a dick move" or not is subjective. There are no "facts" to point out in that regard.

Hah! been taking lessons from Billy have ya? You know exactly what facts I'm talking about. Don't try to clump two of my posts and put a false narrative. The "dick move" post was a matter of subjectivity, the contract info are facts. At least within the bounds of what was presented to us by Holland. 

He couldn't play with the KHL even if he wanted to according to Holland, watch the video posted. Retire from the game entirely or honor the contract for another year. Play the 15/16 and Holland wouldn't have prevented him from playing in the KHL. Facts stated by Holland, summarized in my post. 

He complied, left in 16/17 some people thought that's a dick move and others didn't. Matter of subjectivity. 

Edited March 5, 2017 by kickazz

[Buppy 1,720]

51 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Hah! been taking lessons from Billy have ya? You know exactly what facts I'm talking about. Don't try to clump two of my posts and put a false narrative. The "dick move" post was a matter of subjectivity, the contract info are facts. At least within the bounds of what was presented to us by Holland. 

He couldn't play with the KHL even if he wanted to according to Holland, watch the video posted. Retire from the game entirely or honor the contract for another year. Play the 15/16 and Holland wouldn't have prevented him from playing in the KHL. Facts stated by Holland, summarized in my post. 

He complied, left in 16/17 some people thought that's a dick move and others didn't. Matter of subjectivity. 

Thought it would be pretty obvious when I asked what you were pissed about that I was referring to your attitude on the subject. But whatever.

While it is a fact that the Wings could have prevented Datsyuk from playing in the KHL (or at least could have if the KHL was willing to comply), that is not the same thing as being able to force him to stay with the Wings. So again, he had no real obligation to play for the Wings. It's the "not playing for the Wings" part that hurt us, not that he went to play in the KHL.

I don't see any difference in playing in the KHL or doing any job outside of playing the NHL, or just sitting on his ass all day. So I don't see any more reason to be upset about Datsyuk leaving than I did about Rafalski. 

Also, using the threat of barring him from the KHL in a negotiation doesn't mean anything. Who knows what would have actually happened if Datsyuk had said, "I'm going to Russia regardless, so do what you will". Somehow I doubt the organization would have followed through on the threat if they knew he was gone either way.

 

[kickazz 5,459]

So you're arguing semantics. Okay let me rephrase it. 

According to the contract per Holland he was expected  to either play for the Red Wings for the duration of the contract or if chose not to could retire from the game of hockey. If he soley retired from the NHL to go play in the KHL, The Detroit Red Wings had a right to excercise their contractual powers to prevent him from playing there or could chose not to take any action. 

39 minutes ago, Buppy said:

Also, using the threat of barring him from the KHL in a negotiation doesn't mean anything. Who knows what would have actually happened if Datsyuk had said, "I'm going to Russia regardless, so do what you will". Somehow I doubt the organization would have followed through on the threat if they knew he was gone either way.

 

Sure that's your theory. But obviously Datsyuk ended up staying when push came to shove. You should have been his agent instead of Dan Milstein and told him to call the Red Wing's bluff or whatever it is you're implying. Clearly Milstein was too naive since it "doesn't mean anything" 

From computer GMs to computer Agents we are. 

Look believe what you want to believe. I presented what Holland stated in his interview. 

Edited March 6, 2017 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

So you're arguing semantics. Okay let me rephrase it. 
According to the contract per Holland he was expected  to either play for the Red Wings for the duration of the contract or if chose not to could retire from the game of hockey. If he soley retired from the NHL to go play in the KHL, The Detroit Red Wings had a right to excercise their contractual powers to prevent him from playing there or could chose not to take any action. 

Nobody is arguing that. The situation changed and he wanted out. That's not screwing anyone over. It's no different than what Rafalski did and not as bad as Barry Sanders retiring right before camp when the Lions had no shot at finding a starting RB. The fact he played in Russia, with an easier schedule than the NHL, is irrelevant to the Wings.

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[kickazz 5,459]

4 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

 

Nobody is arguing that. The situation changed and he wanted out. That's not screwing anyone over. It's no different than what Rafalski did and not as bad as Barry Sanders retiring right before camp when the Lions had no shot at finding a starting RB. The fact he played in Russia, with an easier schedule than the NHL, is irrelevant to the Wings.

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You seem to be acting like Datsyuk gets a pass because people didn't react the same way to Rafalski retiring. 

Both Datsyuk and Rafalski screwed the Red Wings over. Now what?

Datsyuk's situation put us in a worse position. Rafalski's didn't. It's a causal relationship. 

Edited March 6, 2017 by kickazz

[e_prime 1,936]

If he didn't leave for the KHL.  He'd probably still be a Wing. 

Everything else is pure speculation and has no meaning in what we know as reality.

Just sayin'. 

[kickazz 5,459]

Datsyuk threads are still too sensitive of a topic. I won't budge on my opinion (call me old-school but I have a thing for loyalty) and I know others are more forgiving. That's not to say if I saw him tomorow I wouldn't give him a hug and attempt at my Russian. 

I'm sure in a few years opinions will change and the Wings are a contender with new faces.

Going back to the OP's point that he clarified on, yes Datsyuk would have made the players he played with better this season. Datsyuk is like Joe Thornton. He makes his linemates better. Like Larionov did. Not many centers can do that. But I'm not sure how much of a difference it would have made ultimately.

Edited March 6, 2017 by kickazz

[Buppy 1,720]

1 hour ago, e_prime said:

If he didn't leave for the KHL.  He'd probably still be a Wing. 

Everything else is pure speculation and has no meaning in what we know as reality.

Just sayin'. 

You do realize that this statement is, in fact, pure speculation. 

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

First of all, I acknowledge my obvious bias, haha

4 hours ago, kickazz said:

You seem to be acting like Datsyuk gets a pass because people didn't react the same way to Rafalski retiring. 

Both Datsyuk and Rafalski screwed the Red Wings over. Now what?

Datsyuk's situation put us in a worse position. Rafalski's didn't. It's a causal relationship.

If Pav left after this year he would have left us in a worse position. It always happens when good players leave, no matter what the reason. Rafalski leaving absolutely left us in a worse position - we couldn't replace him until Green. I don't think the fact that Pav left a year early left us in any worse position than if he left at the time that his contract was supposed to end. To me, I think you can only really argue that he screwed us if you think he'd make us a playoff team. Even that's debateable for those who argue that missing will help longterm.

If you think the Pav contract trade made us miss out in a jem in Chychyrun then maybe he screwed us. But that trade wasn't essential - we could have eaten the caphit for a year and played Larkin in Pav's spot. So, if you're one who drools over Chychyrun, you could argue Holland's decision is what is to blame. I don't think you can blame Pav for subsequent reactions that weren't necessary or without choice.

If Pav left after this year, instead of Nielson, we'd probably sign a different replacement center. This year's crop could be Thornton, Mike Fischer, Hanzal, Boyle. Of those, only Thornton has more pts than Nielsen, but at 37, I don't think we'd go that way. I don't like the Nielsen deal, but nobody can act like the alternative is Pav staying and no bad deal - The likely alternative is 1 more year of Pav and a similar UFA ( also over-payed as UFAs usually are) a year later. Trying to pick up a replacement UFA would have probably been even worse in this expansion year where Vegas can throw money at all the high demand guys and talk to them early.

Edited March 6, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Pavs heart wasn't in it anymore and let's be honest he wasn't close to his former self most of the season. Love Pavs awesome player and from what I've read an even better person . He gave the Wings everything he had for over a decade and never complained altough everyone could see that just hanging on would hurt the Wings in the longrun. His decision didn#t cost the Wings Chychrun (if the Wings wanted Chychrun), Holland trading away the pick in order to sign Nielsen did. Everyone who didn't wear ross colored glasses could see this situation coming.

Maybe if Pasha would still be on the team the Wings would have a few points more but nowhere would they be could enough to contend for a playoff spot. This is a team that has many many holes not even an aging magician would have been able to fix that.

 

[kickazz 5,459]

Well since we're continuing to beat this to death... (sounds like my cup of tea actually)

Yes there are people who would rather had him stay the year and not sign ANY UFA and have a 2nd line center within such as Larkin after his two years of experience. And on top of that kept the high pick. Chychrun is chychrun, it didn't  matter how high you are on him (I'm not), he could still be used a currency in a trade. The article posted by the OP highlights these details. (And I quoted it btw)

Now my opinion is no, I don't blame Holland. Holland tried to manage the situation as best as he could for this team.    

Edited March 6, 2017 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

I'm not convinced that they would be a better team with Datsyuk.  He didn't want to be here and he hasn't been able to stay healthy for a full season in quite awhile.  Of course, they wouldn't have Nielsen and that stupid contract, so they'd be better off in that respect, but that just means Holland probably gives someone else just as a bad a deal this summer.  As far as the draft pick goes, there's no telling who the Wings pick with their original choice, they might have taken Cholowski anyway, or gone with a forward or goalie.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

5 hours ago, kickazz said:

Well since we're continuing to beat this to death... (sounds like my cup of tea actually)

Yes there are people who would rather had him stay the year and not sign ANY UFA and have a 2nd line center within such as Larkin after his two years of experience. And on top of that kept the high pick. Chychrun is chychrun, it didn't  matter how high you are on him (I'm not), he could still be used a currency in a trade. The article posted by the OP highlights these details. (And I quoted it btw)

Now my opinion is no, I don't blame Holland. Holland tried to manage the situation as best as he could for this team.    

For the record, I'd have preferred to have Larkin at 2C and not signed Nielsen. My point was more that those decisions were not essential and don't have that much to do with Dats leaving early. If he left after this year instead, we'd have faced the same decision of whether to have Larkin as 2C or sign a UFA - just a year later.

The draft trade certainly wouldn't have happened if he finished the contract, but I think we'll have to wait many years to see if that was a good move.

[kickazz 5,459]

Nielsen is good but his length of term is really bad for future centers unfortunately. But as a GM signing a 30 something year old, I'd imagine it's tough convincing a guy to come for only 2-3 years. Zetterberg is showing no signs of decline (other than the major decline he hit between age 33 and 34) and seems adamant about finishing his contract. 

I actually think if it came down to signing a center this year it would have been better since the one's you listed are probably retiring soon, unlike Nielsen. 

At the same time if we have a good draft this year and a good expansion draft/July 1, all of this could go away in a couple years time.

Edited March 6, 2017 by kickazz

[kliq 3,755]

With the way the season has gone, I wonder if Nielsen would consider a trade back to the NYI? They were said to interested in re-signing him last year, and I remember him saying it was between the two. If he was open to it, that could be huge for us salary cap wise.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

I don't think they were offering that term and cash

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[kliq 3,755]

23 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

I don't think they were offering that term and cash

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I remember reading that he took a slight discount to come to Detroit, only thing I could find was here: 

http://www.lighthousehockey.com/2016/6/26/12037254/frans-nielsen-rumors-ny-islanders-free-agency

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/06/28/frans-nielsen-new-york-islanders-nhl-free-agency/

Both report the Islanders offered 5.5 million an he rejected the offer, and that he could have gotten mil on the open market. Doesn't say anything about term (I admit I did skim) but it says this on the CBS site:

Quote

Nielsen played the previous four seasons on a team-friendly contract that paid him $2.75 million on average per season, but the Post report said he could receive at least $6 million per season on the open market in a deal that would run through at least his age-36 season.

With him being 32, the bold implies term offered was at least 4 years.

I know people like to create the narrative that Holland signed him to a ridiculous contract that nobody else would have given him, but reality of the situation is that UFA's get overpaid now a days, especially the kind at the Nielsen/Backes level.

For the record I dont think Holland should have signed him, but the market is what the market is.

Edited March 7, 2017 by kliq

[kickazz 5,459]

31 minutes ago, kliq said:

I remember reading that he took a slight discount to come to Detroit, only thing I could find was here: 

http://www.lighthousehockey.com/2016/6/26/12037254/frans-nielsen-rumors-ny-islanders-free-agency

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/06/28/frans-nielsen-new-york-islanders-nhl-free-agency/

Both report the Islanders offered 5.5 million an he rejected the offer, and that he could have gotten mil on the open market. Doesn't say anything about term (I admit I did skim) but it says this on the CBS site:

With him being 32, the bold implies term offered was at least 4 years.

I know people like to create the narrative that Holland signed him to a ridiculous contract that nobody else would have given him, but reality of the situation is that UFA's get overpaid now a days, especially the kind at the Nielsen/Backes level.

For the record I dont think Holland should have signed him, but the market is what the market is.

I remember watching the day he signed with the Red Wings on NHL Network they had him on the line on live-tv and he basically came here for a "slight discount" because he wanted to be part of an original 6 time and liked being offered the role of a top 2 centrer and he did also mention that his favorite player is Zetterberg or something like that and was excited to play with him. Also I kinda doubt he'll wave his NMC because in the same interview he mentioned how his wife was due and they were looking to settle down or something. It seemed like he wanted to move on from the Islanders as though it was getting "old" and he wanted something new and exciting and a franchise he thought he would fit in with. 

I mean lets be honest, Nielsen really is the perfect fit for the Red Wings "on paper", the guy is a defense first type of center. We've had that philosophy with 4 coaches in a row (Bowman, Lewis, Babcock, Blashill). 

It's just that it probably wasn't the right time. 3-4 years ago he would have been the perfect replacement for Valteri Filpula instead of Stephen Weiss. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

A little less cash a year for more term? I'd take that unless ot was an NFL contract. As for what he said after he signed, of course he said good things. Was he going to say "I'm just here for the money?"

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[kickazz 5,459]

Tenacity / grit = defense?

Nielsen is 55% on faceoffs and has accouple of short handed goals this year. I'd say he's just fine on defense. He's not at his best (his shot blocking is considerably down) but that goes with the team overall being s***tier.

Would you rather have Drew Miller? 

Edited March 7, 2017 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Filppula was leaving no matter what.

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[frankgrimes 1,836]

Man people good luck if you believe he is going to waive his ntc. Guy was looking for his last big payday and received it from the Wings, period. Would have some others offered the same? Maybe maybe not but given were the Wings are this signing came 3 years too late.

Would have preferred a guy like Backes at least the guy works hard and has that never surrender attitude. Although nether signing made much sense.

[kliq 3,755]

6 hours ago, frankgrimes said:

Man people good luck if you believe he is going to waive his ntc. Guy was looking for his last big payday and received it from the Wings, period. Would have some others offered the same? Maybe maybe not but given were the Wings are this signing came 3 years too late.

Would have preferred a guy like Backes at least the guy works hard and has that never surrender attitude. Although nether signing made much sense.

I brought it up Frank because the NYI did have interest and did offer him a contract. My logic behind it, is if he feels the Wings are not going to make the playoffs next year as well, maybe he would prefer to go to another team. I never said "I believed" this was going to happen, I said "I wonder if he would".