The Buck Stops WHERE? With WHOM?

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

9 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Ken Holland is the guy that has ruined this team.  He has had an open checkbook from ownership his whole career.

Kronwall, Ericsson, Weiss, Howard, Nyquist, Abdelkader, Nielsen, Green, DeKeyser, Sheahan, Miller, Tatar

47 million dollars tied up in this heaping pile of garbage.  This team needs a massive player overhaul, but can't get it because the GM keeps signing guys long term that don't provide what the Red Wings need.  Ken Holland needs to go before any of this starts to get better.  And if you think our (22) 3rd round picks are going to help over the next 2 years, guess again.  We aren't going to find our 1C or 1D from pick 83.

Including guys like Green, Sheahan, and Tatar in your list makes no sense. Green was a very reasonable UFA signing. All the commentary at the time was asking why he didn't go for a bigger or longer contract. He's played up to the caphit (and probably above it if you look at the cost of RH offensve Dmen around the league). We could move Green very easily if we wanted to. Good signing - not in garbage pile. 

Tatar's underperformed at his current RFA deal (2.75) his production isn't way out of the pay range. If he signs his next deal and doesn't return to his previous form then we'll be in trouble. Sheahan fits into a similar situation - His epic scoring drought has been something special haha, but he hasn't been as bad as some say and his 2 mill deal is what he would've got on any team. Both are complimentary players and would look much better if we had those missing elite pieces.

Edited March 10, 2017 by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

[DickieDunn 2,571]

We need someone with photoshop skills to put Holland and Blashill's heads on Beavis and Butthead

[kickazz 5,459]

I just don't see how this team is considered talented. We have a decent amount of secondary scorers sure but we have no legit top center or defenseman. We don't have a legit power play quarterback besides Mike Green. We don't have a legit sniper. We don't even have consistent goaltending. Even with Blashill's "bad coaching" on paper we don't have ANY key pieces. (1C, 1D, 1G, 1-2 PP specialists). 

We have a lot of good secondary pieces but literally no primary ones. Technically Mrazek is the primary goalie but he's had a rough year. 

Just look at how well Mantha, Nyquist and Tatar perform when they play with Z. But when these guys get demoted to third line or even second line all of a sudden their production drops. We need primaries. We need to draft Vilardi at the very least and if we're lucky Nolan Patrick. Then hope to get a nice D man by trading up the other picks. 

ps: when I say secondary I mean wingers for the most part, or the non-200 foot guys in the classical sense. Basically the guys that need a driver for their production/role.  

Edited March 11, 2017 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Nobody is arguing that or saying that they're a Cup contender or something.  But with what they have, they shouldn't be last in the conference.  This isn't a team where they have no choice to play Sheahan, Abdelkader, & co. as much as they do, that's done by choice.

[LeftWinger 5,152]

Maybe they are secretly tanking on purpose to try to get that marquee player to open up The Oven. We'll never really know for sure.

Not unless it a total coach implosion, I also am baffled at how this team turned to poop so quickly. I give Nyquist a heap of crap, but even I can admit, dammit he was 25-30 goals a season before Blashill. Tatar was too. Abby of course while playing with datsyuk, was pushing 20 a couple of times.

I'm assured by just looking at larkin's game. His first 25-35 games last season he was flying high, keeping up with Eichel, leading the league in +/-, just overall being the player we, and NHL experts predicted he was going to be.  But slowly as Blashill instilled his system into the club, Larkin got worse and worse. I beleive that Blashill's "system" turned Larkin from potential ROY to just another middle 6 player...As much as I blame Holland for bad contracts, but I blame Blashill for this team regressing over the last 2 seasons. Because, as bad as those long contracts are, those players were doing just fine before Blashill got here.

I want to see changes, but first I want to see an entire coaching staff overhaul. We'll lose a player to Vegas, and Holland may free up some more cap over the summer, but I seriously, and you guys are going to drop your jaw to the floor, but I seriously want to see what our players, Nyquist and Helm included can do under a complete different coaching philosophy, like a Hitchcock or Tippett before the entire team get gutted.  I am willing be bet under Hitchcock, DD will become the player he was headed to be. Nyquist and Tatar will probably both hit 30. Larkin and AA and Mantha would excel even higher. Nielsen would become the player he was in NY.

There's no other way to explain the regression of ALL of these players except the coaching staff. One or two players, sure, but an entire flipping team? I can't swallow that out team is bad because of the players, it has to be the coaches.

Unless its all a plot to get the #1 or #2 pick...

Edited March 11, 2017 by LeftWinger

[kliq 3,763]

3 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Maybe they are secretly tanking on purpose to try to get that marquee player to open up The Oven. We'll never really know for sure.

Not unless it a total coach implosion, I also am baffled at how this team turned to poop so quickly. I give Nyquist a heap of crap, but even I can admit, dammit he was 25-30 goals a season before Blashill. Tatar was too. Abby of course while playing with datsyuk, was pushing 20 a couple of times.

I'm assured by just looking at larkin's game. His first 25-35 games last season he was flying high, keeping up with Eichel, leading the league in +/-, just overall being the player we, and NHL experts predicted he was going to be.  But slowly as Blashill instilled his system into the club, Larkin got worse and worse. I beleive that Blashill's "system" turned Larkin from potential ROY to just another middle 6 player...As much as I blame Holland for bad contracts, but I blame Blashill for this team regressing over the last 2 seasons. Because, as bad as those long contracts are, those players were doing just fine before Blashill got here.

I want to see changes, but first I want to see an entire coaching staff overhaul. We'll lose a player to Vegas, and Holland may free up some more cap over the summer, but I seriously, and you guys are going to drop your jaw to the floor, but I seriously want to see what our players, Nyquist and Helm included can do under a complete different coaching philosophy, like a Hitchcock or Tippett before the entire team get gutted.  I am willing be bet under Hitchcock, DD will become the player he was headed to be. Nyquist and Tatar will probably both hit 30. Larkin and AA and Mantha would excel even higher. Nielsen would become the player he was in NY.

There's no other way to explain the regression of ALL of these players except the coaching staff. One or two players, sure, but an entire flipping team? I can't swallow that out team is bad because of the players, it has to be the coaches.

Unless its all a plot to get the #1 or #2 pick...

Look at last night's game, that is a perfect example of what Goose and Tatar are capable of playing like. In Blashills system though, its hard for anyone not named Z to play like that consistently. 

[kickazz 5,459]

Like I said though, last year Tatar and Nyuist were centered by Sheahan and underperformed. Last night they play with Z and you saw the results. Two years in a row Abdelkader scored around 20 goals playing with Z then gets demoted to third line this year and has no production.

Rid Blashill, but also bring a center too. Bring Nolan Patrick!

Edited March 11, 2017 by kickazz

[LeftWinger 5,152]

and this is what pisses me off the most, I've been a diehard fan of this team since 1979, when I was 9 years old...before Holland was here, before Blashill was here, this is MY team, YOUR team, WE pay these salaries, we buy the pizza, the tickets, the soda, the shirts, etc... we watch even when it turns our stomach to do so! As soon as the season ends, the buck better stop! Coaches MUST be fired. We need a whole new staff.  Babcock was great, but his message was becoming stale, and that philosophy has continued, but not even as good as it was before...and it wasn't even that good near the end of Babcock. I am so pissed, and that is what drives me over the edge a lot when it comes to players and the way they're being utilized and performing in those roles. Of course I'd love to see Nyquist score 70 points, but the way Blashill tries to utilize these guys put me into a frenzy! UGH!

Coaches have to go, but honestly, with Holland having one more year, I don't see a change coming, because if he fired them all and hired new coaches, whoever takes over for Holland the next year may want to sweep house again and hire his own coaches. I think they all remain another year and then everyone gets swept with a new GM....hopefully not name Martin or Draper or any other suit upstairs who have the same philosophy as Holland....

Edited March 11, 2017 by LeftWinger

[Dabura 12,232]

28 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

If we dont get Nolan Patrick, it's going to be double digit years before we compete.

You know there's an entry draft every year, right?

[LeftWinger 5,152]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Our rebuild time greatly depends on this.  If we dont get Nolan Patrick, it's going to be double digit years before we compete.  You are spot on in your analysis, here.

While I agree we need a legit draft this year, no experiments, no hoping for a hidden gem that's off the radar, we need to draft one of the top 6 guys that are all being talked about. BUT, it's not Patrick or bust. If we got Patrick, that would be great, but there are a few other centers and a RW that are legit 1st year NHLer's in the draft.

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

If we dont get Nolan Patrick, it's going to be double digit years before we compete. 

Sad!

[DickieDunn 2,571]

4 hours ago, kickazz said:

 Two years in a row Abdelkader scored around 20 goals playing with Z then gets demoted to third line this year and has no production.

Rid Blashill, but also bring a center too. Bring Nolan Patrick!

Any decent player should score 20 goals playing with Zetterbeg and Datsyuk plus getting a bunch of PP time.  It doesn't make Abdelkader special.  He's a 3rd line player with a skill set that allows him to compliment 2 skilled players, no different than guys like Lapointe and McCarty, and to a lesser extent Homer.

 

Tatar and Nyquist should be scoring more than that though, both have goal scoring ability, and under Blashill they, along with any other player not old enough to tell him to kiss their ass, are being asked to do things that they're not suited for.  Larkin is being told he needs to be a power forward.  Scorers are being turned into grinders, and grinders into scorers.  Mantha is told he needs to move his feet, a few weeks ago Blashill said Larkin moves HIS feet too much.  The guy is clueless and just keeps repeating buzz words and phrases and values hard work and "the process" over actual talent and results.  He'd rather a player not score and spend 80% of his time on the ice defending than push the puck and take chances, because they might turn the puck over and lead to an odd man rush.

[kipwinger 8,769]

Yiiiikes.  Tomas Jurco burying the Blashill system. 

"The biggest difference is that here we're told to make plays instead of just making safe plays and chipping it in and playing safely," Jurco said. "Here you actually should create something if you want to stick in this lineup because there's so many creative players."

"I try to play it safe and it doesn't work here. You obviously can't be risking it at certain times of the game or situation, but most of the time you should try to create something, hold onto pucks and don't just chip it in and go for it."

[kickazz 5,459]

7 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Yiiiikes.  Tomas Jurco burying the Blashill system. 

"The biggest difference is that here we're told to make plays instead of just making safe plays and chipping it in and playing safely," Jurco said. "Here you actually should create something if you want to stick in this lineup because there's so many creative players."

"I try to play it safe and it doesn't work here. You obviously can't be risking it at certain times of the game or situation, but most of the time you should try to create something, hold onto pucks and don't just chip it in and go for it."

He's not only burying the Blashill system but also the Babcock system.

"I played that third-, fourth-line role so it's in me now," Jurco said. "I have that bad habit sometimes to play safe and chip it in. When I played juniors (and) in the AHL, I was a creative player, so it takes a little while for me."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/hockey/blackhawks/ct-tomas-jurko-adjustments-blackhawks-spt-0312-20170311-story.html

Btw I did notice something hilarious in his statements "In the AHL, I was a creative player" implying that in Detroit they can't be and are asked to make safe plays.

Um.... 

HIS COACH IN THE AHL WAS JEFF BLASHILL HIMSELF lol. 

Edited March 11, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

2 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Any decent player should score 20 goals playing with Zetterbeg and Datsyuk plus getting a bunch of PP time.  It doesn't make Abdelkader special.  He's a 3rd line player with a skill set that allows him to compliment 2 skilled players, no different than guys like Lapointe and McCarty, and to a lesser extent Homer.

 

Tatar and Nyquist should be scoring more than that though, both have goal scoring ability, and under Blashill they, along with any other player not old enough to tell him to kiss their ass, are being asked to do things that they're not suited for.  Larkin is being told he needs to be a power forward.  Scorers are being turned into grinders, and grinders into scorers.  Mantha is told he needs to move his feet, a few weeks ago Blashill said Larkin moves HIS feet too much.  The guy is clueless and just keeps repeating buzz words and phrases and values hard work and "the process" over actual talent and results.  He'd rather a player not score and spend 80% of his time on the ice defending than push the puck and take chances, because they might turn the puck over and lead to an odd man rush.

It's a mix of things. Ansar Khan says it best :

"Players who tired of Babcock’s voice welcomed the change. Blashill was the obvious choice and the right selection, given his success with the Grand Rapids Griffins and familiarity with most of the players.

But it hasn’t worked. The roster isn’t as good as it was during Babcock’s final two seasons (namely, no Pavel Datsyuk and Niklas Kronwall playing on one leg), but this team shouldn’t be 28^th overall."

 

Basically the same as what I've been saying. Blashill isn't working AND this team is NOT as good as it used to be on paper either. We're not that talented and our coach isn't that good either. We shoudn't be 28th overall but that doesn't mean we'll be one of the top 16 either. We could be 16 maybe 17 at best with a better coach. In order to make a definite stand in the top 10 we will definitely need better players or hope Larkin/AA/Mantha hit their primes sooner rather than later (still doesn't solve defense problem though). 

 

Edited March 11, 2017 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

He's not only burying the Blashill system but also the Babcock system.
"I played that third-, fourth-line role so it's in me now," Jurco said. "I have that bad habit sometimes to play safe and chip it in. When I played juniors (and) in the AHL, I was a creative player, so it takes a little while for me."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/hockey/blackhawks/ct-tomas-jurko-adjustments-blackhawks-spt-0312-20170311-story.html
Btw I did notice something hilarious in his statements "In the AHL, I was a creative player" implying that in Detroit they can't be and are asked to make safe plays.
Um.... 
HIS COACH IN THE AHL WAS JEFF BLASHILL HIMSELF lol. 

And in GR he didn't preach the same style he does now, where hard work and the "process" trump everything else.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

[kickazz 5,459]

7 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

And in GR he didn't preach the same style he does now, where hard work and the "process" trump everything else.

 

How do you know that?

[krsmith17 7,191]

44 minutes ago, DickieDunn said:

And in GR he didn't preach the same style he does now, where hard work and the "process" trump everything else.

Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk
 

Exactly. Jeff Blashill, coach of the Detroit Red Wings is not the same Jeff Blashill, coach of the Grand Rapids Griffins. Not even close.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

When it comes to the whole "Babs voice was stale" "players welcomed the change" bit, I dont see it as a viable excuse for losing Babcock. What players want, isnt necessarilly what players need

clearly we traded out a better coach for a worse one. The whole fresh voice business is just a week scapegoat by management for saying we didnt want to make Babs the highest paid coach ever.

And that's fine, you dont have to pay a guy that much, but dont hide behind the excuse: "but but the players wanted to try something new"

[kickazz 5,459]

9 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

When it comes to the whole "Babs voice was stale" "players welcomed the change" bit, I dont see it as a viable excuse for losing Babcock. What players want, isnt necessarilly what players need

clearly we traded out a better coach for a worse one. The whole fresh voice business is just a week scapegoat by management for saying we didnt want to make Babs the highest paid coach ever.

And that's fine, you dont have to pay a guy that much, but dont hide behind the excuse: "but but the players wanted to try something new"

Hmm, I believe Detroit's offer was going to make him the highest paid coach technically, just not as much in amount or term length as Toronto. Plus it felt as though Babcock wanted to leave and couldn't turn down the higher offer and term length. But it sounded like he wanted to stay if Holland would have matched Toronto's offer, which he didn't. 

So I guess I would say "we didn't want to pay him the ludicrous price that Toronto did". 

Edited March 12, 2017 by kickazz

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Hmm, I believe Detroit's offer was going to make him the highest paid coach technically, just not as much in amount or term length as Toronto. Plus it felt as though Babcock wanted to leave and couldn't turn down the higher offer and term length. But it sounded like he wanted to stay if Holland would have matched Toronto's offer, which he didn't. 

So I guess I would say "we didn't want to pay him the ludicrous price that Toronto did". 

I agree with all that, and i agree Babcock probably wanted to leave anyway.

But my point is that management acts like the players forced their hand, when in reality it was Babcock that forced their hand. We lost a bidding war, and now we have a worse coach.

[kickazz 5,459]

Which reminds me, even with Babs we had troubles in playoffs.

WE NEED NOLAN PATRICK!! DRAFT LOTTERY HERE WE COME.

Edited March 12, 2017 by kickazz

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Which reminds me, even with Babs we had troubles in playoffs.

WE NEED NOLAN PATRICK!! DRAFT LOTTERY HERE WE COME.

We're gunna win it dude. We're going to make the Red Wings great again.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

How do you know that?

Because when he was coaching GR they used creativity and he allowed his offensive players to play that way while teaching them how to defend as well.   Now he wants defend, defend, defend, and benches them for a defensive mistake.  Meanwhile zero goal Sheahan is still playing every night and even getting some PP time because he "does good things."  Never mind that one of those things isn't scoring this year.

46 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

When it comes to the whole "Babs voice was stale" "players welcomed the change" bit, I dont see it as a viable excuse for losing Babcock. What players want, isnt necessarilly what players need

clearly we traded out a better coach for a worse one. The whole fresh voice business is just a week scapegoat by management for saying we didnt want to make Babs the highest paid coach ever.

And that's fine, you dont have to pay a guy that much, but dont hide behind the excuse: "but but the players wanted to try something new"

It was time for a change, and I don't think Babcock wanted to stick around until Holland finally had no choice to admit they need a rebuild.  Hell, even after this year he STILL isn't committing to a full rebuild, because "we're not that far out."  You're last in the conference, that means you're a long way out.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

26 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

We're gunna win it dude. We're going to make the Red Wings great again.

MRWGA