Tatar, Athanasiou, and XO's new deals

[kliq 3,763]

Saying nobody on our team would be a top 6 player on a Stanley cup winning team is such a weak argument, its as if they think that all top 6 players on elite teams are elite. Having an elite line, does not mean EVERY player on that line is elite.

Right off the top of my head, I can think of many top 6 players on top teams that were not elite and could likely have their spot taken from Z. Richard Panik and Artem Anisimov on Chicago, Mike Fisher on Nashville, Conor Sheary on Pittsburgh etc. I'm sure I could list countless examples.

[krsmith17 7,191]

23 minutes ago, kliq said:

Saying nobody on our team would be a top 6 player on a Stanley cup winning team is such a weak argument, its as if they think that all top 6 players on elite teams are elite. Having an elite line, does not mean EVERY player on that line is elite.

Right off the top of my head, I can think of many top 6 players on top teams that were not elite and could likely have their spot taken from Z. Richard Panik and Artem Anisimov on Chicago, Mike Fisher on Nashville, Conor Sheary on Pittsburgh etc. I'm sure I could list countless examples.

To be fair, we're talking about top line, not top six, but your point stands. There are 90 forwards (93 including Vegas) that play on a teams top line, and we have at least 2 or 3 with the potential to become top 90 in this league.

[kliq 3,763]

18 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

To be fair, we're talking about top line, not top six, but your point stands. There are 90 forwards (93 including Vegas) that play on a teams top line, and we have at least 2 or 3 with the potential to become top 90 in this league.

I was talking top 6 because of this comment by Bill.

"Zetterberg is a 3C on the Stanley Cup winning teams."

Either way, even if we are talking top line, Panik is listed on Chicago's top line, and Sheary is listed as being on Pittsbugh's top line.  

[kickazz 5,459]

7 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Except Holland is also loading the team with mediocre talent on deals that are too long for too much money instead of going with a youth movement, because he thinks making the playoffs just to get bounced in 5 games is a good plan for a team that needs to rebuild, because he doesn't think they do need to rebuild.

But according to you it's not going to matter for 3 years so who cares if we have some veterans until then?  Daley, Green, Kronwall, Howard, Ericsson all will be gone. 

Holland's doing exactly what you're saying except he's also thinking about the "meantime". He knows that years down Larkin, Mantha, Cholowski could take over this team. He's already said it in his one hour interview that I posted earlier this summer on these forums. Nothing you said is any different from his game plan. The only difference is he still wants to keep vets here for now and doesn't want to tank. 

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by kickazz

[LeftWinger 5,153]

5 hours ago, kliq said:

What CRL said.

Neither Holland or AA's camp have released the actual offers which is to be expected in a clean contract negotiation. In the recent TSN article about the Red Wings cap situation, this is the snippet that I am basing my statement from:

"Holland told MLive he's made 'a number of offers' to the 23-year-old centre."

http://www.tsn.ca/red-wings-expect-pre-season-cap-crunch-1.825634

So Holland's been lowballing him. Typical. All this is well worth having the highest payroll in the league. Nah, we don't want to buy anyone out or trade anyone. Holland is a ******* disgrace. He really should be sleeping with the fishes right now. Coke sucking bastard. There's no ******* reason why E is still on our payroll. Helm as well. If he was lying in a ditch on the side of the road, I'd piss on him.

[kliq 3,763]

54 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

So Holland's been lowballing him. Typical. All this is well worth having the highest payroll in the league. Nah, we don't want to buy anyone out or trade anyone. Holland is a ******* disgrace. He really should be sleeping with the fishes right now. Coke sucking bastard. There's no ******* reason why E is still on our payroll. Helm as well. If he was lying in a ditch on the side of the road, I'd piss on him.

I didn't read this anywhere, but not shocked you jumped to this. As far as the rest goes, its just way to ridiculous to even address. You seriously sound ridiculous.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

AA probably wants the full remainder of the cap, and Ken probably wants a little wiggle room. 

With some of the rumors of defensive laziness, wouldnt be surprised if Holland is playing hard ball again like he did with Mrazek. 

We have till December to sign him, and we can start waiving others to make room for him soon.

Edited August 11, 2017 by ChristopherReevesLegs

[kickazz 5,459]

14 minutes ago, kliq said:

I didn't read this anywhere, but not shocked you jumped to this. As far as the rest goes, its just way to ridiculous to even address. You seriously sound ridiculous.

Ridiculousness!

[DickieDunn 2,571]

11 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Except Holland is also loading the team with mediocre talent on deals that are too long for too much money instead of going with a youth movement, because he thinks making the playoffs just to get bounced in 5 games is a good plan for a team that needs to rebuild, because he doesn't think they do need to rebuild.

Except by trying to be cannon fodder for a first round opponent they're not going to get the higher draft picks that typically mean better players.

8 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Zetterberg is a 3C on the Stanley Cup winning teams.  I love the guy, but this isnt 2008.

 

 

His 68 points was tied with Pavelski for 24th in the league, one fewer point than Ovechkin, Mathews, and Benn.  This isn't the 80's where all the good scorers are up around 100 points.  He'd be one of the three best forwards on any team in the league.  

35 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

AA probably wants the full remainder of the cap, and Ken probably wants a little wiggle room. 

With some of the rumors of defensive laziness, wouldnt be surprised if Holland is playing hard ball again like he did with Mrazek. 

We have till December to sign him, and we can start waiving others to make room for him soon.

Why in the hell would AA take a dime less than Sheahan got on his RFA deal?  I sure as hell wouldn't

[kliq 3,763]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

Ridiculousness!

lol, I didnt realize I used it twice.

7 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I'm not saying Z isnt good.  He's really good.  I'm just saying the good teams are bringing 2 dynamic centers to the cup finals.  At best, Zetterberg fots the 2C roll ok right now in that scenario.

I think we all know a contender he would easily be the 1C on 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

52 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I'm not saying Z isnt good.  He's really good.  I'm just saying the good teams are bringing 2 dynamic centers to the cup finals.  At best, Zetterberg fots the 2C roll ok right now in that scenario.

Depends on who his wingers are.  Put him on the Caps with Ovechkin on his wing, he's the #1 center and they have a better shot at the Cup.  Toews is younger, but not necessarily better.  Pens have probably the best 1-2 punch at C, so he'd either be a winger or 3rd center there.  TB he'd be a top line winger or #2 C.  

BUT you said zero top line forwards.  There are no teams with 3 forwards better than Zetterberg, and damn few with 2 better than him.  Since he can play both wing and center, you're wrong.  Plus Mantha could be a legit top line winger if he takes a step forward.  If Larkin rebounds he cold be a top line forward.

 

Of course, a lot of the rebounding and progressing depend sin large part on coaching, and I've read nothing to suggest that Blashidiot is going to change anything, so I expect a repeat of last year with most players performing below their capabilities.   

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

Except by trying to be cannon fodder for a first round opponent they're not going to get the higher draft picks that typically mean better players.

His 68 points was tied with Pavelski for 24th in the league, one fewer point than Ovechkin, Mathews, and Benn.  This isn't the 80's where all the good scorers are up around 100 points.  He'd be one of the three best forwards on any team in the league.  

Why in the hell would AA take a dime less than Sheahan got on his RFA deal?  I sure as hell wouldn't

Sheahan and AA are two very different style players. Playing different roles. And drafted at very different positions. Are you sure thats the analogy you want to draw? Cause I certainly wouldnt relate the two. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Sheahan and AA are two very different style players. Playing different roles. And drafted at very different positions. Are you sure thats the analogy you want to draw? Cause I certainly wouldnt relate the two. 

They are very different in their style of play, Athanasiou being the more dynamic of the two, while Sheahan is more defensive responsible. Sheahan did have two productive years, followed by a down year before signing his contract. Athanasiou hasn't gotten enough of an opportunity to prove his worth, which I think is a good thing for the team. How were they drafted at very different positions though? You make it sound like we're talking about a center and a goaltender here. Both were drafted as centers, and both have seen significant time on the wing. I think they' are comparable, and I think Athanasiou will get a very similar contract as well, 2 years at around $2M.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

Holland is the one with all the ridiculousness. I'm tired of him. The streak only ended last year, but we've been playoff fodder since the game 7 against Chicago. Barely making it, backing in, etc... so we've been junk for about 5 years, were in year 6 of a rebuild that Holland has really screwed up. Look at all the generous contracts he's handed to mediocre players since then because they're "homegrown." Now he has no money for his most dynamic player because of it. AA should've been offered $2M from the get go, before Tatar went to arbitration. AA will eclipse anything Tatar or Nyquist will do and here he sits unsigned while we have $10M tied up in those two. I am seriously questioning his ability to manage a team. It's pissing me off.

E, helm and one of nyquist/Tatar should be gone. We have players already on the team and in the system that can more than replace them. But Holland so over values those players that he is incapable of dealing them. I don't care what market value is, we need to fire sale these players, AA, Larkin and Mantha are way more important to give money to than to keep these guys. God I hope and pray Holland is spending his last year as GM. Of course if one of his toadies are promoted, we're in deep s*** for years to come.

[krsmith17 7,191]

27 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Holland is the one with all the ridiculousness. I'm tired of him. The streak only ended last year, but we've been playoff fodder since the game 7 against Chicago. Barely making it, backing in, etc... so we've been junk for about 5 years, were in year 6 of a rebuild that Holland has really screwed up. Look at all the generous contracts he's handed to mediocre players since then because they're "homegrown." Now he has no money for his most dynamic player because of it. AA should've been offered $2M from the get go, before Tatar went to arbitration. AA will eclipse anything Tatar or Nyquist will do and here he sits unsigned while we have $10M tied up in those two. I am seriously questioning his ability to manage a team. It's pissing me off.

E, helm and one of nyquist/Tatar should be gone. We have players already on the team and in the system that can more than replace them. But Holland so over values those players that he is incapable of dealing them. I don't care what market value is, we need to fire sale these players, AA, Larkin and Mantha are way more important to give money to than to keep these guys. God I hope and pray Holland is spending his last year as GM. Of course if one of his toadies are promoted, we're in deep s*** for years to come.

Not many people are defending the way Holland has managed this team over the past few seasons. Most are saying we should move on from him after this season, or at the very least, we should explore other options. The difference is, no one is stooping to your level, saying he should be dead, "sleeping with the fishes" or if he were lying in a ditch on the side of the road, you'd piss on him... That's beyond ridiculous, but whatever, people say ridiculous s*** behind their computers all the time...

How do you know Holland hasn't already offered a contract in the ballpark of $2M? You don't. For all we know, Athanasiou is holding out for $3.5M, and if that's the case, Holland should be holding out. I'm not even saying Athanasiou wouldn't earn that contract. I think he's capable of earning every penny and then some. The problem is, he hasn't yet, and you don't sign such a young player with such a small sample size, to a contract based on what a player potentially could do, but rather what he has shown he can do. RFA's rarely get overpaid, and Holland is great at re-signing his RFA's. He will sign a very fair contract in the coming weeks, and you will look back on this and (hopefully) realize how ridiculous you really were acting...

Not getting into the Nyquist / Tatar thing again. You refuse to admit they're good secondary players on fair contracts, so whatever...

[DickieDunn 2,571]

7 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Sheahan and AA are two very different style players. Playing different roles. And drafted at very different positions. Are you sure thats the analogy you want to draw? Cause I certainly wouldnt relate the two. 

Sheahan signed a 2 year deal worth $2.075 mil a year after a season where he scored 14G and 25 points in 15:15 TOI a game at 24 years old in 81 games.

Athanasiou scored 18 goals and 29 points playing 13:28 a game at 22 years old in 64 games.

 

You're right, I'd want a lot more.

21 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

2009, Im with you.

2018, Im not.

2009 he was one of the 10 best int he NHL, easy.  He hasn't slipped that much.

Start listing teams with 3 better forwards.  I'll wait.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

4 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

They are very different in their style of play, Athanasiou being the more dynamic of the two, while Sheahan is more defensive responsible. Sheahan did have two productive years, followed by a down year before signing his contract. Athanasiou hasn't gotten enough of an opportunity to prove his worth, which I think is a good thing for the team. How were they drafted at very different positions though? You make it sound like we're talking about a center and a goaltender here. Both were drafted as centers, and both have seen significant time on the wing. I think they' are comparable, and I think Athanasiou will get a very similar contract as well, 2 years at around $2M.

One's a first rounder and the other is a 4th. I think there's a different level of expectation from a first rounder. 

1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

Sheahan signed a 2 year deal worth $2.075 mil a year after a season where he scored 14G and 25 points in 15:15 TOI a game at 24 years old in 81 games.

Athanasiou scored 18 goals and 29 points playing 13:28 a game at 22 years old in 64 games.

 

You're right, I'd want a lot more.

2009 he was one of the 10 best int he NHL, easy.  He hasn't slipped that much.

Start listing teams with 3 better forwards.  I'll wait.

Sheahan was a first rounder who plays all areas of ice. Responsible centerman. Plays both PK and PP. Big body. Blocks shots. Finishes checks. And until 2015-16 was showing scoring potential.

Athanasiou was a 4th rounder who plays only in the offensive zone. Trained centerman, who's been moved to wing because he is not defensively responsible. Plays the PP, not the PK. And uses his speed and flashyness to create odd-man chances and score.

I don't think Sheahan and AA are very good comparisons. They have very different abilities and play very different roles on the team. I like AA, but I think this kid is getting super over-hyped. He's a very one-dimensional player who fans salivate over because he has defense breaking speed and dekes. It's flashy and fun to watch, I get it, and it's allowed him to put up a fair amount of points. But points aren't everything, just look at Thomas Vanek. AA is basically Helm, plus hands, and minus all defensive acumen.

When AA is not leaving the zone early to score, how well does he actually compliment our in-zone offense? Both Larkin and AA's ability to cycle the puck in the zone leaves me disappointed. Speed it good, but it has to be used effectively. 

[Buppy 1,720]

2 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

Sheahan signed a 2 year deal worth $2.075 mil a year after a season where he scored 14G and 25 points in 15:15 TOI a game at 24 years old in 81 games.

Athanasiou scored 18 goals and 29 points playing 13:28 a game at 22 years old in 64 games.

Sheahan signed a 2 year deal worth $950K a year after a season where he scored 9G and 24 points in 14:26 TOI a game at 22 years old in 42 games.

[Jacksoni 418]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

One's a first rounder and the other is a 4th. I think there's a different level of expectation from a first rounder. 

Sheahan was a ..

Good points. Cut you short but yes I did read it all. With your points in mind, God Damn is he fun to watch on the breakaway though. That's what gets people in to that Little Ceasars Arena, freshly built and all.

Everything, with no exception, is worth what a purchaser is willing to pay for it. This team is paid by the attendees. Starts there, trickles down. With that logic he should get paid more than good old Teletubby Sheahan.

Would I like him get a lousy salary? No.

Why not? He'd slow down a little. Feel some negative thoughts. What I would like is for him to get just enough to be hungry, whatever that amount of dollars that equates to.

Same goes if he gets overpaid. He relaxes. Find that sweet spot. "You gotta earn the... bla bla". Lame, but it works.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/the-outlook-for-niklas-kronwall?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

Hmmmm, doesn't say anything about LTIR. So E will be ready, Kronner will bready...no money for AA or a 13th forward. But hey, he likes his team. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

One's a first rounder and the other is a 4th. I think there's a different level of expectation from a first rounder. 

Sheahan was a first rounder who plays all areas of ice. Responsible centerman. Plays both PK and PP. Big body. Blocks shots. Finishes checks. And until 2015-16 was showing scoring potential.

Athanasiou was a 4th rounder who plays only in the offensive zone. Trained centerman, who's been moved to wing because he is not defensively responsible. Plays the PP, not the PK. And uses his speed and flashyness to create odd-man chances and score.

I don't think Sheahan and AA are very good comparisons. They have very different abilities and play very different roles on the team. I like AA, but I think this kid is getting super over-hyped. He's a very one-dimensional player who fans salivate over because he has defense breaking speed and dekes. It's flashy and fun to watch, I get it, and it's allowed him to put up a fair amount of points. But points aren't everything, just look at Thomas Vanek. AA is basically Helm, plus hands, and minus all defensive acumen.

When AA is not leaving the zone early to score, how well does he actually compliment our in-zone offense? Both Larkin and AA's ability to cycle the puck in the zone leaves me disappointed. Speed it good, but it has to be used effectively. 

When you said drafted a different positions, I assumed you meant actually position, not position in the draft. Regardless, since when does where a player is drafted dictate how much he should get paid? I'm not saying Athanasiou should get a lot more than Sheahan, I'm hoping he get some somewhere between $1.85-2.15M for 2 years, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's asking for a little more than that, based on what some others on the team (including Sheahan) are making.

You think they're such different players, but both at this stage of their careers are bottom six forwards that can play wing or center. You also say that Athanasiou doesn't kill penalties, and no he doesn't near as much as he should be. He already has 2 short handed goals in limited ice time. I'm not sure if this was meant to turn into a who's better, but in my opinion, it's not even close.

I don't really think Athanasiou is really being overhyped by many (besides LeftWinger) though. He's an exciting player, very good middle 6 winger right now and has all the tools to develop into a solid top 6 winger over the next couple years.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

3 hours ago, Jacksoni said:

Good points. Cut you short but yes I did read it all. With your points in mind, God Damn is he fun to watch on the breakaway though. That's what gets people in to that Little Ceasars Arena, freshly built and all.

Everything, with no exception, is worth what a purchaser is willing to pay for it. This team is paid by the attendees. Starts there, trickles down. With that logic he should get paid more than good old Teletubby Sheahan.

Would I like him get a lousy salary? No.

Why not? He'd slow down a little. Feel some negative thoughts. What I would like is for him to get just enough to be hungry, whatever that amount of dollars that equates to.

Same goes if he gets overpaid. He relaxes. Find that sweet spot. "You gotta earn the... bla bla". Lame, but it works.

Oh I agree on him being a human highlight reel. He was my favorite player to watch last season. Much like Larkin was the year before. But look back at what happened to Larkin. He came outta nowhere his first year and caught the league, and opposing players, off guard with his speed and skill. This season coaches readjusted and were able to contain and stifle him.

If he continues to be able to create odd man chances at will, good on him, I hope for it. But having a flashy player doesn't matter much if that doesn't translate into wins. Defense can be taught, hopefully he is willing to learn. 

19 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

When you said drafted a different positions, I assumed you meant actually position, not position in the draft. Regardless, since when does where a player is drafted dictate how much he should get paid? I'm not saying Athanasiou should get a lot more than Sheahan, I'm hoping he get some somewhere between $1.85-2.15M for 2 years, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's asking for a little more than that, based on what some others on the team (including Sheahan) are making.

You think they're such different players, but both at this stage of their careers are bottom six forwards that can play wing or center. You also say that Athanasiou doesn't kill penalties, and no he doesn't near as much as he should be. He already has 2 short handed goals in limited ice time. I'm not sure if this was meant to turn into a who's better, but in my opinion, it's not even close.

I don't really think Athanasiou is really being overhyped by many (besides LeftWinger) though. He's an exciting player, very good middle 6 winger right now and has all the tools to develop into a solid top 6 winger over the next couple years.

First rounders sign ELC's almost immediately after they are drafted, and usually are moved up the prospect ladder and onto the team much quicker. That effects when you are paid what. Sheahan signed a cheap bridge deal after his ELC. I'm not suggesting AA should too, just that Sheahan and AA are terrible comparisons.

I'm confused by your second paragraph. You begin by suggesting they are not so different, and end with suggesting AA is much better. Which is it?

I think AA can definitely be a top 6 forward one day. I'd like to see a bigger commitment to defense, other than fishing for breakaways on the PK, before that happens though.

I don't think Sheahan's scoring potential has been tapped fully either. It was a beyond weird season for most of the team, hopefully he can rediscover the chemistry he had on that kiddo line he had when he first broke into the league. I just think Sheahan and AA have totally different tool boxes, both of which can help the team in their own ways. The better comparison for AA is Larkin, and I think Larkin will look at what AA is awarded when negotiating his own contract.

[krsmith17 7,191]

8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Oh I agree on him being a human highlight reel. He was my favorite player to watch last season. Much like Larkin was the year before. But look back at what happened to Larkin. He came outta nowhere his first year and caught the league, and opposing players, off guard with his speed and skill. This season coaches readjusted and were able to contain and stifle him.

If he continues to be able to create odd man chances at will, good on him, I hope for it. But having a flashy player doesn't matter much if that doesn't translate into wins. Defense can be taught, hopefully he is willing to learn. 

First rounders sign ELC's almost immediately after they are drafted, and usually are moved up the prospect ladder and onto the team much quicker. That effects when you are paid what. Sheahan signed a cheap bridge deal after his ELC. I'm not suggesting AA should too, just that Sheahan and AA are terrible comparisons.

I'm confused by your second paragraph. You begin by suggesting they are not so different, and end with suggesting AA is much better. Which is it?

I think AA can definitely be a top 6 forward one day. I'd like to see a bigger commitment to defense, other than fishing for breakaways on the PK, before that happens though.

I don't think Sheahan's scoring potential has been tapped fully either. It was a beyond weird season for most of the team, hopefully he can rediscover the chemistry he had on that kiddo line he had when he first broke into the league. I just think Sheahan and AA have totally different tool boxes, both of which can help the team in their own ways. The better comparison for AA is Larkin, and I think Larkin will look at what AA is awarded when negotiating his own contract.

I'm saying they're not terrible comparisons when speaking of contract negotiations, like you seem to believe. Like I said, they're both bottom six forwards (or at least played that way) at this stage of their careers. They're both capable of playing all three forward positions. I do think they're playing style and level of skill is very different, but production has been somewhat comparable when taking into account usage.

Anyway, like I said, hopefully he signs for around what Sheahan signed last year, regardless of whether or not they're comparable.

[kickazz 5,459]

10 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

2009, Im with you.

2018, Im not.

2009 I was with TheAxe and Mindfly

2018 I'm with Jonas. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 minutes ago, kickazz said:

2009 I was with TheAxe and Mindfly

2018 I'm with Jonas. 

What about Bill?