Tatar, Athanasiou, and XO's new deals

[Jacksoni 418]

9 minutes ago, BadgerBob said:

I'd say Toronto has done it in 3 years.

I would have to agree.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

17 minutes ago, BadgerBob said:

I'd say Toronto has done it in 3 years.

Only if you ignore the botched rebuild 07-12 and them missing the playoffs for that period. Shanahan isn't really the beginning of their rebuild to me, since they've been trying to rebuild for so long before that.

To me It's like saying the Edmonton rebuild started with Chiarelli and them picking up McDavid.

[krsmith17 7,191]

12 minutes ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

Only if you ignore the botched rebuild 07-12 and them missing the playoffs for that period. Shanahan isn't really the beginning of their rebuild to me, since they've been trying to rebuild for so long before that.

To me It's like saying the Edmonton rebuild started with Chiarelli and them picking up McDavid.

Yeah, a team doesn't miss the playoffs all but one season in a 12 year span and say that the rebuild started in year 10...

In saying that, I think the point remains that the Leafs were in as bad a spot as us 2-3 years ago, and they completely retooled that team from one of the worst to one of the top up-and-coming teams in no time. They had a couple nice pieces in place (as we do now), but getting Matthews really put them over the top. The unfortunate thing is, although Dahlin and Svechnikov are projected to be very good NHLers, I'm not sure if either are on the level of Matthews. Getting a stud at number one or two would definitely speed up this rebuild / retool in a big way though. I definitely don't think it will take 10 years to build this team back up, with a few key additions, it could be done in 2-3 in my opinion.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

42 minutes ago, BadgerBob said:

I'd say Toronto has done it in 3 years.

 

32 minutes ago, Jacksoni said:

I would have to agree.

They started rebuilding in 2008-09 when Sundin left the team, they fired Maurice, and started shipping off players.

Doing the math in my head... that's a little longer than 3 years.

Rebuilds don't happen in 2-3 years. The Leafs tried this and it took them FIVE seasons before they made a playoff appearance with the core of Phaneuf and Kessel. Then, after being bumped in the first round, they regressed, and tore it all down again. Add another 5 years and now they've made the playoffs again with their core of Matthews and company, only to be bumped in the first round again.

I'm not even willing to call their rebuild successful yet. They're a young team with a bright future, but until they make waves in the playoffs that doesn't matter much. Remember how confident they were going forward with Phaneuf/Kessel/Lupul/JVR? How did that work out? I'll believe their rebuild is complete when I see a cup contending team. 

To be fair, they look much better in my eyes then they did in 2012-13, but this is still a team that is very much building. With the addition of Hainsey and Marleau they will be at the cap this year and should be gunning for a deeper playoff run. Should be a pivotal season for them.

[kickazz 5,459]

2 hours ago, BadgerBob said:

I'd say Toronto has done it in 3 years.

 

2 hours ago, Jacksoni said:

I would have to agree.

Uh no. Do people assume their rebuild started with Babcock or something? Go look at their draft picks since 2007. They're been attempting to rebuild for over a decade and even now the best they've done is get to 8th seed or whatever it was last year. They're STILL a work in progress even after the 10 years of rebuilding.

Edited August 9, 2017 by kickazz

[kickazz 5,459]

4 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

that doesn't help when you have Kenny "Gotta play it safe" Holland in charge

It shouldn't need to take more thaqn 2 or 3 years if they were smart about it.  

Oh do name one team that has successfully rebuilt a team in 2-3 years in the cap era. 

[DickieDunn 2,571]

They have a good potential base in Larkin, AA, Mantha, Svechnikov, and Cholowski.  Dekeyser, Tatar, Nyquist are all still fairly young complimentary players.  There are a few young guys who can fill out the bottom of the roster.  If Larkin ends up as a legit #1 center and Mantha as a #1 winger, and they can find a #1 D and a goalie they can trust long term, or at least until Petruzelli is ready, they could have a contender in 3 years.

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

They have a good potential base in Larkin, AA, Mantha, Svechnikov, and Cholowski.  Dekeyser, Tatar, Nyquist are all still fairly young complimentary players.  There are a few young guys who can fill out the bottom of the roster.  If Larkin ends up as a legit #1 center and Mantha as a #1 winger, and they can find a #1 D and a goalie they can trust long term, or at least until Petruzelli is ready, they could have a contender in 3 years.

Bs.

And if Petruzelli ends up being another disappointment? Your "smart about it" goes down the gutter and you're looking at another 3+ years on top of that. And what do you know it wasn't a 3 year rebuild after all. Just like it never is.

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

1 hour ago, BadgerBob said:

I'd say Toronto has done it in 3 years.

Lol. I'd say in 10 years they've rebuilt. Also they've made the playoffs once and were bounced in the first round, lets not say its a success just yet. 

[Jacksoni 418]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

 

They started rebuilding in 2008-09 when Sundin left the team, they fired Maurice, and started shipping off players.

Doing the math in my head... that's a little longer than 3 years.

Rebuilds don't happen in 2-3 years. The Leafs tried this and it took them FIVE seasons before they made a playoff appearance with the core of Phaneuf and Kessel. Then, after being bumped in the first round, they regressed, and tore it all down again. Add another 5 years and now they've made the playoffs again with their core of Matthews and company, only to be bumped in the first round again.

I'm not even willing to call their rebuild successful yet. They're a young team with a bright future, but until they make waves in the playoffs that doesn't matter much. Remember how confident they were going forward with Phaneuf/Kessel/Lupul/JVR? How did that work out? I'll believe their rebuild is complete when I see a cup contending team. 

To be fair, they look much better in my eyes then they did in 2012-13, but this is still a team that is very much building. With the addition of Hainsey and Marleau they will be at the cap this year and should be gunning for a deeper playoff run. Should be a pivotal season for them.

I hear you, and I do not disagree to your point. But I believe we are using different glasses here, you are looking at the overall picture of the Maple leafs over say almost 10 years.

I am looking at the state of the Maple leafs 3 seasons ago, which was the statement I replied to. And comparing them to now. Backing 3 years the Maple leafs were scrubs, with little to no chance chance of making the playoffs, and if they by some stroke of luck were to make it they would be brushed off by almost any team they were to face.

The picture today is different. They have our coach and an intelligent, veteran and battle hardened back end. They have superstars not even in their prime, most notably in Matthews, complemented by budding stars in for example Nylander just to mention one. They shook it up in the playoffs this year and in my opinion you could see what is to come, this and many following seasons. They will finish in a playoff spot in our division for many years.

I would argue that they did retool, not rebuild, as good as any team could have possibly managed to do in 3 years. Exceedingly, in this case I would argue that their retooling exceeds the traditional notion of the word, closing in on, although not quite reaching what is normally mentioned as rebuild, given all the factors mentioned above.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

Bs.

And if Petruzelli ends up being another disappointment? Your "smart about it" goes down the gutter and you're looking at another 3+ years on top of that. And what do you know it wasn't a 3 year rebuild after all. Just like it never is.

I'm confused. What is "BS" in what Dickie wrote? He basically said if everything goes right, we could be a contender in 3 years. Which is absolutely true, and the same could be said about literally every single team in the NHL. Are you saying that we don't have a good potential core? Or we don't have any complimentary players? Or we don't have any young players to fill out the roster? Or if A, B, and C hit their ceiling, we won't be a very good team?...

I agree 100% with Dickie on this and I think if all goes well we could be a legit contender in 3 years. Unfortunately, in order for things to start going right, Ken Holland is going to have to move on...

[kliq 3,755]

The Leafs since Shanahan took over re-tooled, they didnt re-build. The shed two big contracts in Pheneuf and Kessel, traded 1 horrible contract for an LTIR contract (Clarkson for Horton), and traded low end players away for picks. This combined with hiring one of the best coaches in the world, and getting the #1 pick for AM, led them to where they are today. Bozak, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, Komarov, etc. were all there 3 years ago.

[krsmith17 7,191]

12 minutes ago, kliq said:

The Leafs since Shanahan took over re-tooled, they didnt re-build. The shed two big contracts in Pheneuf and Kessel, traded 1 horrible contract for an LTIR contract (Clarkson for Horton), and traded low end players away for picks. This combined with hiring one of the best coaches in the world, and getting the #1 pick for AM, led them to where they are today. Bozak, JVR, Kadri, Rielly, Komarov, etc. were all there 3 years ago.

Yeah, and we can do a similar re-tool in the same time frame, if things go well for the next 2 seasons. Like Dickie said, Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou, Svechnikov, Cholowski, is a good young core to build around. If they all continue to develop the way they should, and we get ourselves a top end defenseman, we should be in great shape. We also need Mrazek to return to form this season. He can't be any worse, but can he get back to Vezina level? Time will tell...

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

3 hours ago, Jacksoni said:

I hear you, and I do not disagree to your point. But I believe we are using different glasses here, you are looking at the overall picture of the Maple leafs over say almost 10 years.

I am looking at the state of the Maple leafs 3 seasons ago, which was the statement I replied to. And comparing them to now. Backing 3 years the Maple leafs were scrubs, with little to no chance chance of making the playoffs, and if they by some stroke of luck were to make it they would be brushed off by almost any team they were to face.

The picture today is different. They have our coach and an intelligent, veteran and battle hardened back end. They have superstars not even in their prime, most notably in Matthews, complemented by budding stars in for example Nylander just to mention one. They shook it up in the playoffs this year and in my opinion you could see what is to come, this and many following seasons. They will finish in a playoff spot in our division for many years.

I would argue that they did retool, not rebuild, as good as any team could have possibly managed to do in 3 years. Exceedingly, in this case I would argue that their retooling exceeds the traditional notion of the word, closing in on, although not quite reaching what is normally mentioned as rebuild, given all the factors mentioned above.

But they have been rebuilding for 10 years. Fired multiple coaches/gms in the process. Just because it finally clicked doesn't mean the timeframe in which they sucked changed. They only were able to assemble most of the talent they have over 10 years of garbage hockey. Just like the oilers, the hawks, etc......

[kliq 3,755]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

We have ZERO top line talent at Forward and Defense.  That's 5 spots to fill minimum before this team can compete in the playoffs.

Funny post coming from someone who started a thread about Larkin being elite.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

13 hours ago, kickazz said:

Bs.

And if Petruzelli ends up being another disappointment? Your "smart about it" goes down the gutter and you're looking at another 3+ years on top of that. And what do you know it wasn't a 3 year rebuild after all. Just like it never is.

OK, so if Larkin and Mantha (or two other forwards) end up as legit top line guys, Cholowski and an as yet unknown player are a legit top pair, and they find a long term solution in net, be it Petruzelli, Mrazek, or whoever, they can't be a contender in 3 years?

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

We have ZERO top line talent at Forward and Defense.  That's 5 spots to fill minimum before this team can compete in the playoffs.

Are you saying that none of the players on the team are top line players right now? Or are you saying that we don't have any future top line talent, whether on the team (Larkin, Mantha) or in the pipeline (Svechnikov, Rasmussen, Cholowski)? Zetterberg was a top line talent last season and hopefully we don't see a huge drop off over the next couple seasons. We have several players in the organization that could develop into top line players in the near future. Of the 4 I mentioned previously, maybe only 2 or 3 of them become top line players, but that's still not "ZERO". There's always the chance that a player exceeds expectations as well. Maybe Athanasiou or Hronek become the top line player(s) that we all hope they could be. Maybe a player completely off everyone's radar like Jack Adams or Malte Setkov come out of nowhere and become top level player(s). We do need to add another one or two for sure though, and hopefully that comes in the next draft or two...

[kickazz 5,459]

10 hours ago, DickieDunn said:

OK, so if Larkin and Mantha (or two other forwards) end up as legit top line guys, Cholowski and an as yet unknown player are a legit top pair, and they find a long term solution in net, be it Petruzelli, Mrazek, or whoever, they can't be a contender in 3 years?

Sure, how is this any different than what Holland is doing/ already has? I'm calling your posts bs because you're acting like you have some amazing solution. All you've done is stated the obvious possible hypothetical scenario, one that Holland himself probably hopes for but can't guarantee. Just like you can't. All these players you named ARE drafted by Holland himself. So sit tight and see if your scenario works out in 3 years and if it does , be sure to give Holland credit for it since he's the guy who drafted all the players you named.

FYI that's not a new rebuild or anything. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by kickazz

[DickieDunn 2,571]

1 hour ago, kickazz said:

Sure, how is this any different than what Holland is doing/ already has? I'm calling your posts bs because you're acting like you have some amazing solution. All you've done is stated the obvious possible hypothetical scenario, one that Holland himself probably hopes for but can't guarantee. Just like you can't. All these players you named ARE drafted by Holland himself. So sit tight and see if your scenario works out in 3 years and if it does , be sure to give Holland credit for it since he's the guy who drafted all the players you named.

FYI that's not a new rebuild or anything. 

Except Holland is also loading the team with mediocre talent on deals that are too long for too much money instead of going with a youth movement, because he thinks making the playoffs just to get bounced in 5 games is a good plan for a team that needs to rebuild, because he doesn't think they do need to rebuild.

[LeftWinger 4,962]

Can we please get AA signed already? Of your 3 RFA's he is your most talented and you worry about XO and Tatar first? I understand arbitration, but AA should've been addressed well before Tatar. It should be XO still waiting for a contract, if anyone...

[kliq 3,755]

22 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Can we please get AA signed already? Of your 3 RFA's he is your most talented and you worry about XO and Tatar first? I understand arbitration, but AA should've been addressed well before Tatar. It should be XO still waiting for a contract, if anyone...

AA has been offered contracts, he has turned them down. You make it sound like Holland is not speaking to him. Its not like Holland will only talk to 1 RFA at a time, and then once that RFA is done he jumps to the next one. XO signed right away, AA didnt.

Also, Tatar was signed during his arbitration. That is MUCH MUCH MUCH more time sensitive then signing AA.

[LeftWinger 4,962]

57 minutes ago, kliq said:

AA has been offered contracts, he has turned them down. You make it sound like Holland is not speaking to him. Its not like Holland will only talk to 1 RFA at a time, and then once that RFA is done he jumps to the next one. XO signed right away, AA didnt.

Also, Tatar was signed during his arbitration. That is MUCH MUCH MUCH more time sensitive then signing AA.

What contracts was he offered?

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

31 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

What contracts was he offered?

I don't think it's been reported "what" he was offered, just that he has received multiple offers, all of which he has turned down so far. Negotiation takes time sometimes.

[kliq 3,755]

41 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

What contracts was he offered?

What CRL said.

Neither Holland or AA's camp have released the actual offers which is to be expected in a clean contract negotiation. In the recent TSN article about the Red Wings cap situation, this is the snippet that I am basing my statement from:

"Holland told MLive he's made 'a number of offers' to the 23-year-old centre."

http://www.tsn.ca/red-wings-expect-pre-season-cap-crunch-1.825634

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Zetterberg is a 3C on the Stanley Cup winning teams.  I love the guy, but this isnt 2008.

? - ? - ?

Mantha-Larkin-Svechnikov

Rasmussen-Athanasiou-?

Sheahan-Helm-Glendening

We could probably get some more mileage out of Z at 3rd line wing.

Moving Howard, Kronwall, Abdelkader, Nielsen, Tatar, and Nyquist should be top priority.  30 mil tied up in these 6.  Team could get better in a hurry if we moved those guys and picked up 2 #1 selections from tanking.

You mean he would be a 3C on Pittsburgh? That I will agree with, although he'd likely play on Crosby or Malkin's wing in that situation. But no, he is not a 3C on just any Stanley Cup winning team. He ranked top 25 in points last season for all positions. That absolutely qualifies you as a top line player. He may not be elite anymore (although I'd argue that he still is borderline elite, even at the age of 36), but he's certainly not a third liner...

You really don't think a single player within our organization has the ability / potential to become a top line player? We're not talking about elite here, we're talking top 90 forward in the league...

I'll say it again, Tatar and Nyquist do not NEED to be moved. They're both very good secondary players on fair contracts. If we could trade one in a package to upgrade our defense, sure, but not just to dump them...

Abdelkader is on an awful contract, but on a team with a handful of bad contracts, it looks a lot worse. Kronwall and Nielsen I'll agree with, and I'd add Ericsson to that list as well.