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PavelValerievichDatsyuk

Tatar, Athanasiou, and XO's new deals

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Lots of tissle and tassle in here but most recent comments seems stale about the issue at hand. Any news on Tatar's arbitration?

If not, we really need a semi-insider. Perhaps cash up collectively to have an unemployed Detroit gentleman stalking Ken Holland at the very least, reporting that he has left the arbitration building using social media. It might seem overly curious but it is our biggest deal of the season by far.

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1 minute ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

2 ways to look at this:

 

Holland is an Idiot.  He pisses Tatar off and ends up with a floating malcontent for 1 year who has zero value at the deadline due to 31 teams knowing he's leaving Detroit July 1, 2018.

 

Holland is a Genius.  By pissing Tatar off, he gets a floating malcontent that will greatly enhance his team's chances of going in the tank of tanks.  Larkin and Mrazek's ability to re-sign for a high dollar figure next year diminishes, and we get the first overall pick.

Always has to be one of two extremes with you with everything.  

There's many ways to see and interpret this. And neither of your suggested outcomes are at all likely.

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This one is interesting because I have no idea how it will go. Anyone wanting to throw in another analysis go right ahead. I'm guessing they will settle long term.

But if they weren't it means this team shifts in priorities on a profound level, beyond the scope of Tatar's contract I believe, upgrading from a 'rebuild on the fly' to a plain old rebuild. Whether I am right or wrong at least the outcome will be up soon enough.

Debates to follow.

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The fact that it has gone to arbitration to me means that Tatar gets traded at the deadline if not before. Maybe this forces Kenny's hand to throw in one of the netminders + Tatar + D prospect and a  draft pick and see who's willing to deal. 

My thoughts would be one of Buffalo, Arizona and maybe San Jose just for them needing a nm upgrade but what top D we could get back I don't know.

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My hope:

Tatar gets 4.8m in arbitration.  Proceeds to play lights out for us.

Tatar gets traded pre-deadline to the Penguins, for their 2018 1st

Penguins miss the playoffs, win the lottery.

 

My dread:

Tatar gets 5.1m in arbitration.  Proceeds to play lights out for us.

Kenny gives him a 6yr/6m extension

We continue being 20th to 25th in the league, never winning the lottery.

 

I'll keep hoping all the same - nothing wrong with misplaced positivity!

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I'll ask you again, why would you want to trade guys like Tatar and Mrazek for picks? Because we need cap space? For what? Because we have better players in Grand Rapids? Who? Svechnikov? He might be as good as Tatar in couple years from now. Because the picks are more valuable than the players? They're not.
So what? We trade them for a late 1st or early 2nd round pick. Then we hope that whoever we select with those picks, turn out to be as good as the players we're trading away... It makes no sense. If we're trading those types of pieces (Mrazek, Tatar, Nyquist, etc...) it needs to be in a package for a player, not picks...


The whole trading Mrazek thing is hilarious at this point. Might want to wait on that until you have a starter who can play a full season, and a backup who didn't have a 3.58 or whatever GAA IN 14 starts in Detroit last season. Or maybe not. Tanks away!


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15 minutes ago, chaps80 said:

The whole trading Mrazek thing is hilarious at this point. Might want to wait on that until you have a starter who can play a full season, and a backup who didn't have a 3.58 or whatever GAA IN 14 starts in Detroit last season. Or maybe not. Tanks away!

To be clear, I don't, nor have I ever wanted to trade Mrazek. I still think (hope) he can reach his full potential. I'm hoping for a huge turnaround season for him this year.

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To be clear, I don't, nor have I ever wanted to trade Mrazek. I still think (hope) he can reach his full potential. I'm hoping for a huge turnaround season for him this year.


Yeah, I know your one of the few of us here that still has hope for him. I was referring to Leftwinger's comment about trading him. Makes no sense at all.


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Yes, we do need cap space, so trading Nyquist and/or Tatar makes sense in the long-run, given some of the youth we have in the pipeline.  We need to re-sign Larkin and Mantha after this season, and if Larkin has a bounce-back and Mantha continues the way he was playing or improves, they're both in for a decent raise.  Those two are more important than Tatar or Nyquist.  It's an unfortunate byproduct of Holland handing bad contracts to Ericsson, Helm, Abdelkader, Nielsen, Glendening...  Don't re-sign Helm, lower Abdelkaders AAV, don't pick up Nielsen, and lower Glendening's AAV and we don't have to worry about these secondary players like Tatar or Nyquist as much.  But reality is reality and it would be better to trade Tatar in a package for a top D or C or for picks.  You can then go a couple different routes; sign Vanek to 2 years at an affordable cap number or bring up Svechnikov now and play him with Zetterberg so he can learn from him while he's still producing.  This does not equate to tanking.  I wouldn't mind trading Mrazek, but only for the right return (top D or C).  I also understand that it makes sense to give Mrazek another season to prove he's got it and if he does but an extension looks unlikely, trade him.  If he continues to play poorly, try and part with him at the deadline.  Or he plays great and we successfully extend him, Howard has one more season, and we can make that work.

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10 hours ago, Andy Pred 48 said:

Tatar gets traded at the deadline if not before

Sooner = better.

Buffalo, Arizona, I can see also Florida and couple others could go with prospect/high draft for Tatar/package. Don´t expect 1st C/D. 

At the TDL

   1/ Buyers will have low picks only, obviously

   2/ Won´t be willing to unload a lot for pending UFA

   3/ Everybody will know Ken is in tricky situation of must-trade, which won´t help him a lot. 

 

I was just guessing to trade him already signed for what he wants. Like - call Chayka and ask him "..hey, you interested in Tatar 5.3/5 in package for your first pick ´18+ Domi?"

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6 hours ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

Yes, we do need cap space, so trading Nyquist and/or Tatar makes sense in the long-run, given some of the youth we have in the pipeline.  We need to re-sign Larkin and Mantha after this season, and if Larkin has a bounce-back and Mantha continues the way he was playing or improves, they're both in for a decent raise.  Those two are more important than Tatar or Nyquist.  It's an unfortunate byproduct of Holland handing bad contracts to Ericsson, Helm, Abdelkader, Nielsen, Glendening...  Don't re-sign Helm, lower Abdelkaders AAV, don't pick up Nielsen, and lower Glendening's AAV and we don't have to worry about these secondary players like Tatar or Nyquist as much.  But reality is reality and it would be better to trade Tatar in a package for a top D or C or for picks.  You can then go a couple different routes; sign Vanek to 2 years at an affordable cap number or bring up Svechnikov now and play him with Zetterberg so he can learn from him while he's still producing.  This does not equate to tanking.  I wouldn't mind trading Mrazek, but only for the right return (top D or C).  I also understand that it makes sense to give Mrazek another season to prove he's got it and if he does but an extension looks unlikely, trade him.  If he continues to play poorly, try and part with him at the deadline.  Or he plays great and we successfully extend him, Howard has one more season, and we can make that work.

What do we need cap space for this season? Other than re-signing Tatar, which you're advocating trading anyway, we don't need any more cap space this season. People keep referencing the Larkin and Mantha extensions coming up next season. Neither will be an issue. If there's one thing Holland has proven he is very good at, it's re-signing his RFA's. A lot can happen in one year, and there are plenty of other ways to make room under the cap, other than trading one of your better wingers away for draft picks... You don't trade your leading goal scorer in the prime of his career for draft picks. It makes no sense. If we're trading him, and I think we should be shopping him, he needs to be a "hockey trade", bringing in a proven commodity.

We can worry about the Larkin and Mantha contracts when the time comes to re-sign them. We could potentially lose Green and his $6M after this season. If Sheahan doesn't have a bounce back season, or he does and we trade him, we could have his $2.075M off the books. Depending on how our goaltending shakes out, we could potentially trade one of Howard ($5,291,667) or Mrazek ($4M). We could also trade a Helm or Ericsson to shed cap space if it came down to it. Also, Weiss' buyout penalty goes down by $900K after this season. Basically we could have an extra $12M+ in cap space freed up after this season, without even taking into account the cap rising. So again, why do we need the cap space this season?

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5 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

What do we need cap space for this season? Other than re-signing Tatar, which you're advocating trading anyway, we don't need any more cap space this season. People keep referencing the Larkin and Mantha extensions coming up next season. Neither will be an issue. If there's one thing Holland has proven he is very good at, it's re-signing his RFA's. A lot can happen in one year, and there are plenty of other ways to make room under the cap, other than trading one of your better wingers away for draft picks... You don't trade your leading goal scorer in the prime of his career for draft picks. It makes no sense. If we're trading him, and I think we should be shopping him, he needs to be a "hockey trade", bringing in a proven commodity.

We can worry about the Larkin and Mantha contracts when the time comes to re-sign them. We could potentially lose Green and his $6M after this season. If Sheahan doesn't have a bounce back season, or he does and we trade him, we could have his $2.075M off the books. Depending on how our goaltending shakes out, we could potentially trade one of Howard ($5,291,667) or Mrazek ($4M). We could also trade a Helm or Ericsson to shed cap space if it came down to it. Also, Weiss' buyout penalty goes down by $900K after this season. Basically we could have an extra $12M+ in cap space freed up after this season, without even taking into account the cap rising. So again, why do we need the cap space this season?

I think you're misunderstanding what I am getting at.  Yes, we are fine on cap space this season, but you need to move bodies out before their contract is up to get whatever assets you can before they walk for nothing.  In Tatar's case, given what he has said, if we don't trade him between now and the trade deadline, he'll walk and we get nothing.  Is he one of our top goal scorers?  Yes.  This doesn't change the fact that he's walking if the arbitration deal happens, and all signs point to that being the case now.  Nyquist is on the books for next season and then we'll have to make a decision.  This season will be paramount for him to bounce back and increase his value either to stay here longer or be traded.  I am, first and foremost, advocating a trade of Tatar for a top D or top C (obviously a package).  If Tatar doesn't improve this season and all signs point to him walking, you absolutely trade him for picks/prospects.  They'll probably move Green at the deadline because getting younger is a goal.  Maybe they keep him if his production rises yet again this season, but definitely not if they're out of the playoffs.  Unless Howard puts together a strong season, he won't be tradeable, there's just no way a team takes a chance on him given his injury history.  Mrazek could definitely be traded, but again, he needs to put together a strong season to up his stock, otherwise, we're looking at picks and prospects.  Come on!  Helm's contract is not tradeable, it's a bad contract.  Ericsson is in the same boat and it seems like he's been battling injury issues since this past season.  Also, both of them have NTCs, so that hurts.  

Here is a breakdown of next season:
Forwards - Zetterberg, Nielsen, Nyquist, Abdelkader, Helm, Glendening, Athanasiou, LARKIN, MANTHA
    Possibles - Bertuzzi, Svechnikov, Holmstrom, Smith
Defensemen - DeKeyser, Daley, Kronwall, Ericsson, Ouellet, Jensen, Witkowski
    Possibles - Cholowski, Sulak, Hronek, Saarijarvi, McIlrath, Hicketts
Goalies - Howard

2018/19 Cap Space (with proven players) : $22,079,166
   - This includes Franzen on LTIR and Weiss's buyout

We'll need to add 3-4 forwards and a starter or backup goaltender (depending on Mrazek).  If you slot Tatar in at $5.5 million, another goalie around $5 million (assuming Howard's injury still plagues them), Athanasiou around $2 million, Mantha and Larkin around $2-3 million each (depending on performance this upcoming season), that would leave us with around $3.5 million in cap space.  

So, in theory, if you roll with that lineup and fill out the final 3 forward positions with our prospects (Bertuzzi, Svechnikov, and let's say Holmstrom) then we'll be around $1 to 1.5 million under the current $75 million cap.  So, you're right, we don't need to trade Tatar or Nyquist to make things work next season, but it sure would be nice to have the cap flexibility to make necessary moves/trades if they come along.  Being up against the cap with the team we have his crazy.  Holland needs to flip some assets for what we need.  And we NEED a top 2 D and a top 6 C.
 

Sorry this is a flippin' novel.  Did not intend to write that much.

9 minutes ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

There's a bunch of examples of guys who have done they arbitration hearing and made a longer term deal instead. But I think they have to make a deal before the arbiter's decision comes in.

You are correct, they have up until the arbiter makes a ruling, to strike a deal.  All signs point to no deal being made, given the difference in offers and the fact that he already turned down 5x5.... which is ridiculous since it's only 300k off his current ask.

Edited by SwedeLundin77

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18 minutes ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

I think you're misunderstanding what I am getting at.  Yes, we are fine on cap space this season, but you need to move bodies out before their contract is up to get whatever assets you can before they walk for nothing.  In Tatar's case, given what he has said, if we don't trade him between now and the trade deadline, he'll walk and we get nothing.  Is he one of our top goal scorers?  Yes.  This doesn't change the fact that he's walking if the arbitration deal happens, and all signs point to that being the case now.  Nyquist is on the books for next season and then we'll have to make a decision.  This season will be paramount for him to bounce back and increase his value either to stay here longer or be traded.  I am, first and foremost, advocating a trade of Tatar for a top D or top C (obviously a package).  If Tatar doesn't improve this season and all signs point to him walking, you absolutely trade him for picks/prospects.  They'll probably move Green at the deadline because getting younger is a goal.  Maybe they keep him if his production rises yet again this season, but definitely not if they're out of the playoffs.  Unless Howard puts together a strong season, he won't be tradeable, there's just no way a team takes a chance on him given his injury history.  Mrazek could definitely be traded, but again, he needs to put together a strong season to up his stock, otherwise, we're looking at picks and prospects.  Come on!  Helm's contract is not tradeable, it's a bad contract.  Ericsson is in the same boat and it seems like he's been battling injury issues since this past season.  Also, both of them have NTCs, so that hurts.  

Here is a breakdown of next season:
Forwards - Zetterberg, Nielsen, Nyquist, Abdelkader, Helm, Glendening, Athanasiou, LARKIN, MANTHA
    Possibles - Bertuzzi, Svechnikov, Holmstrom, Smith
Defensemen - DeKeyser, Daley, Kronwall, Ericsson, Ouellet, Jensen, Witkowski
    Possibles - Cholowski, Sulak, Hronek, Saarijarvi, McIlrath, Hicketts
Goalies - Howard

2018/19 Cap Space (with proven players) : $22,079,166
   - This includes Franzen on LTIR and Weiss's buyout

We'll need to add 3-4 forwards and a starter or backup goaltender (depending on Mrazek).  If you slot Tatar in at $5.5 million, another goalie around $5 million (assuming Howard's injury still plagues them), Athanasiou around $2 million, Mantha and Larkin around $2-3 million each (depending on performance this upcoming season), that would leave us with around $3.5 million in cap space.  

So, in theory, if you roll with that lineup and fill out the final 3 forward positions with our prospects (Bertuzzi, Svechnikov, and let's say Holmstrom) then we'll be around $1 to 1.5 million under the current $75 million cap.  So, you're right, we don't need to trade Tatar or Nyquist to make things work next season, but it sure would be nice to have the cap flexibility to make necessary moves/trades if they come along.  Being up against the cap with the team we have his crazy.  Holland needs to flip some assets for what we need.  And we NEED a top 2 D and a top 6 C.
 

Sorry this is a flippin' novel.  Did not intend to write that much.

You are correct, they have up until the arbiter makes a ruling, to strike a deal.  All signs point to no deal being made, given the difference in offers and the fact that he already turned down 5x5.... which is ridiculous since it's only 300k off his current ask.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm getting at... I'm okay with trading Tatar, Nyquist, and just about any other player on the team (aside from Larkin and Mantha). What I'm not okay with, is trading Tatar and / or Nyquist for draft picks. Those are not the type of assets you move for picks, when they're clearly worth much more than that. I also don't believe that just because they went to arbitration Tatar is done in Detroit after this season. I think it's possible that he and Holland could come to an agreement on an extension at some point this season. I also think it's possible that Tatar could be traded in a package for a top pair defenseman. Which is why you don't trade him for crap shoot draft picks.

It's really irritating that some people still believe there are "untradeable contracts". The term does not exist in hockey. ANY player "can" be traded, and it's been proven time and time again. Helm and Ericsson absolutely could be traded if we needed to free up cap space and / or had a GM capable of making such trades. If we're in desperate need to free up cap space next season, I'd much rather trade Ericsson (retain salary) and a 2nd for a 5th, then trade Tatar for a 2nd... just an example.

The underlined part, I completely agree with. Which is why I've been advocating for months now that we package some combination of Tatar, Nyquist, Athanasiou, Svechnikov, Ouellet, Sproul, Jensen, Hronek, Saarijarvi, picks, etc. for a top pair defenseman and / or top 6 center. And one last time, don't trade any of the aforementioned players with value for draft picks. If we need to clear cap space, there are plenty other ways to do it.

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7 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

All we have left is $933,333k in cap space to offer AA without going over. Insulting to one of you future star players. Thanks Holland.

You just wrote this exact same post in another thread......like I said in that thread, with LTIR we should be fine.

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