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ChristopherReevesLegs

Goal GOAT Poll

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38 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Which car has the most gas?

The car with the most gas? or the car that's going to fill up 120 miles from now?

It's Wayne until it's not. 

I see what you are saying, but just looking at totals is more of a reflection of longevity then ability to score.

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28 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Scored 92 in one season. Boy it's a good job he was able to endure that entire marathon. 

And by the time he turned 26 (1988) his goal scoring average dropped to about 40 per season.
Then once the dead puck era started (1993) when he was 31 his average dropped to about 28 per season.

Gretsky only led the league in goals scored 4 times in his career.

Richard did the same 5 times
Howe did the same 5 times
Esposito did the same 6 times
Bobby Hull did the same 7 times
Ovechkin has done the same 8 times (a record), and he's in the hunt to do it again at 34 years old. If he does it I believe that will make him the oldest player to lead the league in goals since Gordie Howe in 1963. He's doing all this at an older age then Gretsky, in a decreased scoring leage that a younger Wayne could only manage to average 28 goals a season in.

The great 8 baby
 

 

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15 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

And by the time he turned 26 (1988) his goal scoring average dropped to about 40 per season.
Then once the dead puck era started (1993) when he was 31 his average dropped to about 28 per season.

Gretsky only led the league in goals scored 4 times in his career.

Richard did the same 5 times
Howe did the same 5 times
Esposito did the same 6 times
Bobby Hull did the same 7 times
Ovechkin has done the same 8 times (a record), and he's in the hunt to do it again at 34 years old. If he does it I believe that will make him the oldest player to lead the league in goals since Gordie Howe in 1963. He's doing all this at an older age then Gretsky, in a decreased scoring leage that a younger Wayne could only manage to average 28 goals a season in.

The great 8 baby
 

 

Keep talking. Who has the most goals? Gretztky. 

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1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Keep talking. Who has the most goals? Gretztky. 

Ovechkin is the only player after 1996 to ever breach 60 goals in a season with 65.

Almost every single "top goals in a season" is from 1980 - 1992. If you time warped Ovechkin back to that era I think it's reasonable to assume we'd see our first 100+ goal season if the cocaine didnt get him.

Gretsky is definitely the more complete player by far, but goal scoring wise #8 is an absolute unstoppable mad man.

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4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ovechkin is the only player after 1996 to ever breach 60 goals in a season with 65.

Almost every single "top goals in a season" is from 1980 - 1992. If you time warped Ovechkin back to that era I think it's reasonable to assume we'd see our first 100+ goal season if the cocaine didnt get him.

Gretsky is definitely the more complete player by far, but goal scoring wise #8 is an absolute unstoppable mad man.

No time warp allowed. Also, Lemiex @ 0.75GPG > Ovi

It's like 

1. 99

2. 66

3. 8

Edited by The 91 of Ryans

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Regardless Ovie is quickly closing the gap. He only needs 4 more seasons at this pace to take the helm from Grets. Heaven forbid he plays 6 or 7 more. I think it's very possible.

1 minute ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

No time warp allowed. Also, Lemiex @ 0.75GPG > Ovi

It's like 

1. 99

2. 66

3. 8

I think Lemieux is a better goal scorer than Grets TBH. When the dead puck era hit it slowed Grets way down, but not Lemieux.

If Ovie can do it in the next 4 seasons (a pace of about 50 goals a season) he will top Gretsky's goal totals in fewer games played in a tougher era to score...

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10 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Scored 92 in one season. Boy it's a good job he was able to endure that entire marathon. 

He did, but he also scored 92 goals in 81/82 which was a season where teams were scoring 4.01 GPG which is the highest scoring season in NHL history. Literally, this was the easiest season to score ever.

Dont get me wrong, I put him #4 on my list, he's amazing and the greatest player ever, but you can't just judge Gretzky based on his totals given the era his peak was in.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

*edit* 

Edited by kliq

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Since the 1993/94 season is the beginning of the dead puck era, when goal scoring began normalizing to what it is today, here's #99 and #8 side by side:

93/94 Grets (31/32 yo): 38 goal pace --- 16/17 Ovie (31 yo): 33 goal pace
94/95 Grets (32/33 yo): 19 goal pace --- 17/18 Ovie (32 yo): 49 goal pace
95/96 Grets (33/34 yo): 24 goal pace --- 18/19 Ovie (33 yo): 52 goal pace
96/97 Grets (34/35 yo): 25 goal pace --- 19/20 Ovie (34 yo): 58 goal pace
Totals: Grets: 106 goals, Ovie: 192 goals

Measured in the same eras and compared by age it's not even a contest. And prelockout was higher scoring than post lockout. Wayne is slightly older by a few months in this comparison, but that's a pretty small crutch.

#99 is super propped up by his heyday in the high-scoring early 80s. After that he's a pretty average goal-scorer.

#8 is aging like Napoleonic era fine wine. He's the model of consistent unrelenting goal scoring.

 

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Ovi, and it's not even really close.   He's going to break the record in a lower scoring era,  against bigger,  stronger,  faster,  more athletic defensemen and goalies,  and more sophisticated defensive systems.   

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What's the rationale for ranking Ovechkin above Lemieux?  He scored more overall goals?  Lemieux played in a higher scoring era?    

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ovechkin is the only player after 1996 to ever breach 60 goals in a season with 65.

Almost every single "top goals in a season" is from 1980 - 1992. If you time warped Ovechkin back to that era I think it's reasonable to assume we'd see our first 100+ goal season if the cocaine didnt get him.

Gretsky is definitely the more complete player by far, but goal scoring wise #8 is an absolute unstoppable mad man.

Doesn't work that way.  Ovechkin would have to use worse equipment and be in worse shape after the age of 30.  There's a reason there weren't too many 35 year olds putting up huge numbers in those days.  Fitness, nutrition, and evolution has changed in sports.  It's easier now for athletes to play well into later years.  

9 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Ovi, and it's not even really close.   He's going to break the record in a lower scoring era,  against bigger,  stronger,  faster,  more athletic defensemen and goalies,  and more sophisticated defensive systems.   

Yeah, let's close the thread.  Not even close.   :sigh:

What about your boy Bobby Hull?  

Edited by GMRwings1983

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1 hour ago, kliq said:

He did, but he also scored 92 goals in 81/82 which was a season where teams were scoring 4.01 GPG which is the highest scoring season in NHL history. Literally, this was the easiest season to score ever.

Dont get me wrong, I put him I believe #3 on my list, he's amazing and the greatest player ever, but you can't just judge Gretzky based on his totals given the era his peak was in.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

Who was the next highest goal scorer that year? 

I'll answer that for you.  It was Mike Bossy with 64 goals.  If it was an easy era to score goals, how come Bossy didn't score more?  Why did only two other players score 60 besides Gretzky? 

When has Ovechkin ever dominated his peers like that?  

The fact is, Ovechkin in his best years never dominated his peers in goal scoring like Gretzky did.  He never finished with 25 or 30 more goals than the next player.  All the people bringing up the high scoring in the 80's have no reply to that.  We're supposed to believe that Ovechkin would score 100 goals, while the next highest guy not counting Gretzky would have 60.  When has Ovechkin ever shown that kind of statistical gap versus his peers?  

You guys are full of it.   

Edited by GMRwings1983

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1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

What's the rationale for ranking Ovechkin above Lemieux?  He scored more overall goals?  Lemieux played in a higher scoring era?    

Doesn't work that way.  Ovechkin would have to use worse equipment and be in worse shape after the age of 30.  There's a reason there weren't too many 35 year olds putting up huge numbers in those days.  Fitness, nutrition, and evolution has changed in sports.  It's easier now for athletes to play well into later years.  

Yeah, let's close the thread.  Not even close.   :sigh:

What about your boy Bobby Hull?  

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess Bobby Hull never had to shoot on a goalie over 6'1. Let alone do it most nights.   And I know for a fact he never shot on a butterfly goalie.   Scoring a bunch of goals on short, stand up,  goalies just isn't as hard.  It's science.   

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2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Ovi, and it's not even really close.   He's going to break the record in a lower scoring era,  against bigger,  stronger,  faster,  more athletic defensemen and goalies,  and more sophisticated defensive systems.   

So? Gretzky basically used a cricket paddle for a hockey stick. You can't time warp. Too many variables. Plus Ovi's probably juicing. 

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49 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess Bobby Hull never had to shoot on a goalie over 6'1. Let alone do it most nights.   And I know for a fact he never shot on a butterfly goalie.   Scoring a bunch of goals on short, stand up,  goalies just isn't as hard.  It's science.   

Hull was only 5’10 and if you see photos of him, you’ll see he was built like a tank.  Same with Howe.  That is small compared to today’s players.  Ovechkin wouldn’t be 6’3 235 lbs back then.  He also wouldn’t be using a composite stick.  
 

 

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1 minute ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Hull was only 5’10 and if you see photos of him, you’ll see he was built like a tank.  Same with Howe.  That is small compared to today’s players.  Ovechkin wouldn’t be 6’3 235 lbs back then.  He also wouldn’t be using a composite stick.  
 

 

No. He'd be using a Titan. Basically, a barn door. 

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5 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Who was the next highest goal scorer that year? 

I'll answer that for you.  It was Mike Bossy with 64 goals.  If it was an easy era to score goals, how come Bossy didn't score more?  Why did only two other players score 60 besides Gretzky? 

When has Ovechkin ever dominated his peers like that?  

The fact is, Ovechkin in his best years never dominated his peers in goal scoring like Gretzky did.  He never finished with 25 or 30 more goals than the next player.  All the people bringing up the high scoring in the 80's have no reply to that.  We're supposed to believe that Ovechkin would score 100 goals, while the next highest guy not counting Gretzky would have 60.  When has Ovechkin ever shown that kind of statistical gap versus his peers?  

You guys are full of it.   

The argument is not "who had the greatest single goal scoring season of all time", if it was no question that Gretzky's 81/82 or 83/84 seasons are at the top, but that is not the question. The question is who is the greatest goal scorer of all time. Now I already said that I pick Lemieux #1 (which now I am second guessing after all the stats I pulled), but your biggest source of contention appears to be me putting Ovie above Gretzky, you want me to explain my logic, here it is:

Goals Per Game 
Ovie - 0.612,
Gretzky - 0.601.
Ovie in his career scored more goals per game then Gretzky.

League Averages
During Gretzky's career the mean for GPG in a season was 3.50.
During Ovie's career it was/is 2.85.

Despite Ovie playing in an era where goal scoring was down 0.65 GPG, Ovie still managed to outscore Gretzky per game.

Leading the league in scoring
Gretzky led the league in goals 5 times in his career
Ovie has led the league in goals 8 times and counting.

Again, I admit Gretzky had a two seasons where he dominated (81/82 & 83/84) those are the two best goal scoring season of all time, but as far as who was the stronger goal scoring threat throughout their career, its not even close. 8 Richard trophies is pretty damn impressive and IMO puts Ovie above Gretzky.

In Response to your "The fact is, Ovechkin in his best years never dominated his peers in goal scoring like Gretzky did." Comment
Sure, Ovie never outscored his peers by "25 or 30 goals", but come on thats a silly thing to say in this era and you know it. Its not possible to do that when the best goal scorer in the world is scoring in the 50's. Do you really expect #2 to be in the 20's? More goals being scored opens the league up to these types of numbers. Its similar to what the NFL is seeing now with TD's and Passing Yards. The only thing you can look at is percentages, here they are as I did a deep dive:

Lets look at each season each respective player won the goal scoring title and how close #2 was:

81-82 - Gretzky scored 92 - #2 scored 64 --- 44% better then #2
82-83 - Gretzky scored 71 - #2 scored 66 ---  8% better then #2
83-84 - Gretzky scored 87 - #2 scored 56 ----55% better then #2
84-85 - Gretzky scored 73 - #2 scored 71 ---  3% better then #2
86-87 - Gretzky scored 62 - #2 scored 58 ---- 7% better then #2

07-08 - Ovie scored 65 - #2 scored 52 --- 25% better then #2
08-09 - Ovie scored 56 - #2 scored 46 --- 22% better then #2
12-13 - Ovie scored 32 - #2 scored 29 --- 10% better then #2
13-14 - Ovie scored 51 - #2 scored 43 --- 19% better then #2
14-15 - Ovie scored 53 - #2 scored 43 --- 23% better then #2
15-16 - Ovie scored 50 - #2 scored 46 ---  9% better then #2
17-18 - Ovie scored 49 - #2 scored 44 --- 11% better then #2
18-19 - Ovie scored 51 - #2 scored 50 ---  1% better then #2

Ovie actually outscored his competition in the years he won the rocket by double digits 6 times. Gretzky did it twice. This dominance you speak of only happened twice, by reading your post you would think he did this every year. Again, no doubt that '81-82 & '83-84 are the best single seasons a player has ever had in terms of scoring goals, but Ovie has dominated for a MUCH longer duration the Gretzky winning scoring titles for over 11 years. Gretzky did most of his damage in a much shorter period of time as it was all in 6 seasons. 

Other Factors

Gretzky in the early part of his career ONLY played against the best North American players in the world. Ovie throughout his career has played against the very best the entire world has had to offer, not half. Ovie outperformed Gretzky statistically against stronger competition.  

If you remove every non North American player ever (for conversation sake pretending Ovie was a NA player), I think Ovie does start to score at the level Gretzky did, just like when the rest of the world came into the NHL, Gretzky's dominance diminished.

Whats even more impressive, Ovie is winning scoring titles in his 30's, Gretzky never won a single title after he was 26.

Both are great, I'm not trying to tear Gretzky down. We're comparing the best of the best here. But statistically all indicators point towards Ovie being the better goal scorer. Gretzky just had the best single season ever which is appearing to cloud peoples judgement.  

I will say this though, after reviewing Gretzky's stats so closely, I do switch him and Bure.

But ya, I'm full of it.

Edited by kliq

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