Red Wings players / prospects on loan

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 hours ago, marcaractac said:

I was referring to the specific case of Veleno, not as some all encompassing rule. He fell because of questions about his ceiling. GMs didn't see elite potential there. In this case, they were correct. Which does not mean that Veleno will never ever make some GMs regret passing on him, because he could. 

I don't disagree that Veleno could possibly be a really good 2C some day. I just think using the word elite in terms of position is silly. If we can throw the word elite around so loosely, I'm an elite hockey player at the pee wee level. It makes sense to be the among the best at your position. But 2C is not a position, it's a spot in the lineup. You're an elite center or you're not. And no, I'm not saying you think Veleno will be an elite center. We agree there.

The figure skating thing was a joke. Darren Helm is an elite skater as well. 

Fair enough. I admitted that "elite" may have been a poor word choice, and explained what I meant (should have been clear without explanation), but kip and co. will go on and on about how Veleno isn't elite because of x, y, and z. Well, no s***...

To be fair, if you were in Peewee, and you were among the best players in the league, an elite Peewee player would be perfectly acceptable in my opinion...

[krsmith17 7,191]

53 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

I'm a bit surprised to see Seider NOT recalled from loan. I'd say he's arguably been the #1 SHL Dman so far.

There is no out clause in an SHL contract. All of Seider, Raymond, Berggren, Veleno, Brome, etc. have to stay in Sweden until their respective teams are finished.

[ely s 458]

6 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

He's tied for fourth in scoring per game, so you should probably check first, and should be farther ahead

He´s tied for fourth, which is still fourth and in ppg he´s not even tied, so stop splitting hairs to keep an argument going where you have nothing relevant to say apart from bashing one of our better prospects.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

There is no out clause in an SHL contract. All of Seider, Raymond, Berggren, Veleno, Brome, etc. have to stay in Sweden until their respective teams are finished.

Yep. This here is basic Covid Hockey 101 stuff. 

[F.Michael 4,590]

2 minutes ago, ely s said:

He´s tied for fourth, which is still fourth and in ppg he´s not even tied, so stop splitting hairs to keep an argument going where you have nothing relevant to say apart from bashing one of our better prospects.

If Veleno is 1 of our better prospects - we're in trouble.

[marcaractac 3,963]

9 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Fair enough. I admitted that "elite" may have been a poor word choice, and explained what I meant (should have been clear without explanation), but kip and co. will go on and on about how Veleno isn't elite because of x, y, and z. Well, no s***...

To be fair, if you were in Peewee, and you were among the best players in the league, an elite Peewee player would be perfectly acceptable in my opinion...

Yes, in relation to peewee players, I'd likely be elite haha. 

1 minute ago, F.Michael said:

If Veleno is 1 of our better prospects - we're in trouble.

I'd say Veleno is one of our B-teir prospects 

[F.Michael 4,590]

1 minute ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Yeah he's tied in PPG

I swear Euro posters ruined this board

2 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

I'd say Veleno is one of our B-teir prospects 

Agreed.

'B' as in borderline NHL/AHL player.

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

1. Seider

2. Raymond

3. Zadina

4. Bergrren 

5. Neiderbach

6. Johannson

7. Rasmussen

8. Veleno

9. Tuomisto

10. Wallinder

 

 

[marcaractac 3,963]

19 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Agreed.

'B' as in borderline NHL/AHL player.

B as in will likely be a reliable middle six player who plays in the NHL for a lot of years. Likely a career 3rd liner, but will have 2 or 3 seasons in his prime where he puts up second line #'s. I'm thinking Kris Draper-level. Draper was a pretty damn important player for a lot of years. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by marcaractac

[The 91 of Ryans 3,019]

25 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Zagina pulled his 'groin' again

https://www.wingingitinmotown.com/platform/amp/2020/12/15/22176684/red-wings-terminate-filip-zadinas-loan-to-czech-extraliga?utm_campaign=wingingitinmotown&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Oh no! Not a perhaps maybe could also be for training camp reasons groin injury. Those are the worst. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

I've watched quite a few SHL games, watching the Rogle vs Malmo game now. Veleno has looked good from what I've seen. Euro posters that have also watched him play, echo the same sentiment. He's looked good on a bad team. Then there are posters that haven't watched him, and only look at stats, citing his poor +/- as evidence that he's not good...

[kipwinger 8,754]

52 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Fair enough. I admitted that "elite" may have been a poor word choice, and explained what I meant (should have been clear without explanation), but kip and co. will go on and on about how Veleno isn't elite because of x, y, and z. Well, no s***...

To be fair, if you were in Peewee, and you were among the best players in the league, an elite Peewee player would be perfectly acceptable in my opinion...

You make TONS of outrageous claims about prospects. You once said that Jared Coreau had NHL starting goalie upside. You said Hronek would never be more than 3rd pairing dman. So it's not my job to intuit which of your takes is hyperbole and which is just bad judgement. And stop acting like a victim, you said it, and you're currently doubling down on it (to some degree) by claiming that ALL NHLers are elite compared to other players. So own it.

[marcaractac 3,963]

If one has to pick and choose elite aspects of a players game such as having elite skating, or having elite vision, or ever having to use the term borderline elite period, odds are said player just straight up isn't elite. The best baseball players are considered 5-tool players for a reason. They excel at all aspects. That's elite. 

When determining if a player is elite or not, it should be trying to find reasons they are not elite. Not trying to find reasons why they are. 

[kipwinger 8,754]

1 hour ago, ely s said:

He is fourth in scoring with 4 games less an Malmö´s roster, so you should probably check first before spreading "news".

Yeah his scoring really took off once they moved him to the wing. Definitely evidence that he's going to be a good NHL center one day. Totally. If you're going to throw out his first 10 games in an effort to make the case that he's actually playing well, then you should probably include the fact most of his scoring has come after he was moved to an easier position.

1 minute ago, marcaractac said:

If one has to pick and choose elite aspects of a players game such as having elite skating, or having elite vision, or ever having to use the term borderline elite period, odds are said player just straight up isn't elite. The best baseball players are considered 5-tool players for a reason. They excel at all aspects. That's elite. 

When determining if a player is elite or not, it should be trying to find reasons they are not elite. Not trying to find reasons why they are. 

Whatever man, Drew Miller had "elite" penalty killing ability and it's about time his "eliteness" was recognized for what it was. And don't you DARE question it. He's clearly more elite than a college player bro.

[marcaractac 3,963]

2 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Yeah his scoring really took off once they moved him to the wing. Definitely evidence that he's going to be a good NHL center one day. Totally. If you're going to throw out his first 10 games in an effort to make the case that he's actually playing well, then you should probably include the fact most of his scoring has come after he was moved to an easier position.

Whatever man, Drew Miller had "elite" penalty killing ability and it's about time his "eliteness" was recognized for what it was. And don't you DARE question it. He's clearly more elite than a college player bro.

He also had elite grey hair

[dat's sick 1,002]

3 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Berglund - Dman, 7th round pick, 6 months older than Veleno, outscoring him.
Lundkvist - Forward, 28th overall pick, 5 months younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Peterson - Forward, 5th round pick, 7 months older than Veleno, outscoring him.
Oberg - Forward, 7th round pick, 5 months younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Andersson - Forward, undrafted, 6 months older than Veleno, outscoring him.
Eklund, Forward, undrafted, 2 years and 9 months younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Hoglander, Forward, 2nd round pick, 1 year and 11 months younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Seider, Dman, 6th overall pick, 1 year and 3 months younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Holtz, Forward, 7th overall pick, 2 years younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Drury, Forward, 2nd round pick, 1 month younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Raymond, Forward, 4th overall pick, 2 years and 2 months younger than Veleno, outscoring him.
Berggren, Forward, 2nd round pick, 7 months younger than Veleno, outscoring him.

Veleno comes with the unique distinction that he he already has AHL mens league experience and is a 1st round pick. He should be dominating almost all these players. Especially the Dmen, guys drafted significantly lower, or guys significantly younger. But he's not. AHL is the highest league in the world outside the NHL and KHL.

SHL is arguably better than AHL, it's definitely a different challenge and lower scoring. I think you are jumping through hoops to make Veleno's performance seem worse than it is. A lot of those guys are actually in their 3rd pro season, and even those who are only in their 2nd pro season are better adapted to big ice and the SHL style of hockey. 

Whatever.. I guess if Veleno has a few lucky bounces and gets some secondary assists, he's suddenly "dominating" lol.. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

18 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Oh s*** the Veleno police are here. They seen Veleno. Don't trust the empirical evidence. Trust them. Trust me.

No policing. Just making a point. I value the opinion of people that actually watch the games over people that just check the stat sheet.

13 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You make TONS of outrageous claims about prospects. You once said that Jared Coreau had NHL starting goalie upside. You said Hronek would never be more than 3rd pairing dman. So it's not my job to intuit which of your takes is hyperbole and which is just bad judgement. And stop acting like a victim, you said it, and you're currently doubling down on it (to some degree) by claiming that ALL NHLers are elite compared to other players. So own it.

LOL coming from the guy that claimed Athanasiou was better than Larkin. Let's go back and rehash all the dumb things you've said over the years. But hey, props for not mentioning Jurco...

Also, if I recall, I was one of the first on the Hronek bandwagon. I remember saying that about Saarijarvi when everyone jumped on his bandwagon, but not Hronek...

[marcaractac 3,963]

Gee, it's almost as if nobody, including the professionals, can reliably predict how 18 year old kids will turn out at the NHL level; assuming they ever make it. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by marcaractac

[kipwinger 8,754]

Just now, krsmith17 said:

No policing. Just making a point. I value the opinion of people that actually watch the games over people that just check the stat sheet.

LOL coming from the guy that claimed Athanasiou was better than Larkin. Let's go back and rehash all the dumb things you've said over the years. But hey, props for not mentioning Jurco...

Also, if I recall, I was one of the first on the Hronek bandwagon. I remember saying that about Saarijarvi when everyone jumped on his bandwagon, but not Hronek...

I did think AA would be better, but I never said he'd be "elite" to make that point. Because that would be silly. I'm also not the one whining that "kip and co." take me at face value when I say silly things. You are. Why not just own up to the fact that you were being hyperbolic about Veleno because you A) like him, and B) don't like being wrong?

You definitely said that about Hronek, in the EXACT same post you called Coreau a future starter. Do I really need to go find the post?

[F.Michael 4,590]

56 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

B as in will likely be a reliable middle six player who plays in the NHL for a lot of years. Likely a career 3rd liner, but will have 2 or 3 seasons in his prime where he puts up second line #'s. I'm thinking Kris Draper-level. Draper was a pretty damn important player for a lot of years. 

I think 3rd line will be his upside...I'm perfectly fine with that...Just won't hold my breath is all.

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I did think AA would be better, but I never said he'd be "elite" to make that point. Because that would be silly. I'm also not the one whining that "kip and co." take me at face value when I say silly things. You are. Why not just own up to the fact that you were being hyperbolic about Veleno because you A) like him, and B) don't like being wrong?

You definitely said that about Hronek, in the EXACT same post you called Coreau a future starter. Do I really need to go find the post?

I already backed off on the word elite. Get over it. I do like Veleno. Do you not like Veleno? I like Seider too. Do you like Seider? I'm not sure what this has to do with anything...

[F.Michael 4,590]

1 minute ago, Wait&Sneed said:

He can't even climb into top3 scoring on his own crappy team, got moved to wing, and consistently has the worst +/-. This board consistently jumps through hoops to apologize for this kid

 

This.

If he's rather ordinary at a lower level...NHL seems a reach.

[dat's sick 1,002]

3 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

He can't even climb into top3 scoring on his own crappy team, got moved to wing, and consistently has the worst +/-. This board consistently jumps through hoops to apologize for this kid

Unrelated, but can't we somehow quarantine the Euros to their own section of the board?

God forbid anyone watch the games and make informed judgements. Oh well. Reminds me why I haven't posted here for years.. 

[kipwinger 8,754]

Just now, krsmith17 said:

I already backed off on the word elite. Get over it. I do like Veleno. Do you not like Veleno? I like Seider too. Do you like Seider? I'm not sure what this has to do with anything...

I don't "like" players because I'm not a fanboy. I would GLADLY replace every single player in the Red Wings organization with other players if it made the team better. I think "liking" people I don't know is childish tbh. But you do you.

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 minute ago, kipwinger said:

I don't "like" players because I'm not a fanboy. I would GLADLY replace every single player in the Red Wings organization with other players if it made the team better. I think "liking" people I don't know is childish tbh. But you do you.

LOL this may be the dumbest thing I've ever read on here... and that's impressive...

Do you like the Red Wings?