Red Wings players / prospects on loan

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

2 hours ago, Akakabuto said:

Timashov to Isles. 

For future considerations. 

So basically nothing. Which is exactly what SY paid for him in the first place.

Would've liked to have seen what he could do with a regular roster spot and ice time before dumping him tho. If he played well there could have been a pick coming back. Even if he didn't play well, the return would have still been the same.

[krsmith17 7,191]

24 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

That begs the question...

To TBL: Zetterberg

To DET: Johnson + Killorn + Veleno2.0

Yes or no?

Absolutely no. Like I've been saying all along, that is an AWFUL trade.

[krsmith17 7,191]

34 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

I'm glad you've finally come back to earth on Veleno

I still believe that Veleno will be a 2nd line NHL center. However, more often than not, you're not getting that sort of player at 30th overall.

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 hours ago, Wait&Sneed said:

So we agree you're expectations for Veleno are unrealistic. Good. Lets move on.

You're the only person dumb enough to think that 2C is "unrealistic" expectations for Joe Veleno. I'm sure you said the same thing about Mantha becoming an elite 1W a few years ago...

[krsmith17 7,191]

5 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

I know it hurts. But just remember the Jurco and Smith days and pinch yourself.

There you go.

And there it is... 

Ya know, you could just say you're a complete moron, and have absolutely nothing better to say than "durrr, remember when you thought Jurco and Smith were going to be good"... 

[kipwinger 8,524]

On 11/22/2020 at 7:35 AM, krsmith17 said:

You've already proven with your previous posts that you've been basing your opinion purely on stats, and not from watching the games. Now saying that he has "limited puck skills", makes me question whether or not you've ever watched Veleno play... Veleno's skill with the puck on his stick is one of his strengths, not at all a weakness. If you're going to point to a weakness, it would probably be his positioning in the defensive zone. Something that can be fixed.

So you do think that all players develop at the same rate? Got it.

Veleno's point totals have been a little disappointing. No disagreement there. However, he's still been playing well from what I've seen. Berggren has been unreal, and is massively surpassing everyone's expectations. That doesn't necessarily mean it will translate to the NHL though...

I didn't bring Mantha up as a direct player comparison. I brought him up because so many people (including you) gave up on him before he ever had a chance to prove himself. The same thing you're now doing with Veleno. Mantha is a borderline elite, top line NHL winger (when healthy). I don't think Veleno will ever have that sort of impact at the NHL level. They're completely different players.

The player I've compared Veleno to in the past, and I think it's a very good one, is Phillip Danault. They're exactly the same size, left-handed centers, from the same province, drafted in the same range, and play a very similar style of game. Both are very strong two-way centers, that can play in all situations. Their biggest strengths are skating, play-making ability, hockey IQ and work ethic. The biggest difference between the two is that Veleno has been much better at every single level up until this point in Veleno's young career. Veleno was much better in the QMAAA, QMJHL, AHL, and World tournaments. All of which he played at a younger age than Danault.

Danault was always an average point producer, better known for his two-way game. Sound familiar? Now he's one of the better 2nd line centers in the NHL. But yet, according to you, that sort of ceiling just isn't in the cards for Veleno...

We definitely don't agree. Surprise, surprise. But if you want to write Veleno off as a 3rd line center this early in his development, go right ahead. I'm going to assume he still has plenty of room to grow, and hope he hits his ultimate ceiling, which is an elite two-way 2C.

Can't imagine where I got the idea that you think Veleno will be a dominant 2C?

[krsmith17 7,191]

6 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Can't imagine where I got the idea that you think Veleno will be a dominant 2C?

What's your point? I already responded to that in the other thread... I think Veleno's absolute floor is 3C, ultimate ceiling is elite 2C, but likely ends up somewhere in between. Reliable two-way 2C. Maybe he'll never carry a line, but put two high end / elite wingers on his line, like Zadina and Raymond, and he won't look at all out of place. He's an elite skater, with high end vision and good puck skills. If he can figure out the defensive side of the game (I think he will), he'll be a legit threat all over the ice.

[kipwinger 8,524]

2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

What's your point? I already responded to that in the other thread... I think Veleno's absolute floor is 3C, ultimate ceiling is elite 2C, but likely ends up somewhere in between. Reliable two-way 2C. Maybe he'll never carry a line, but put two high end / elite wingers on his line, like Zadina and Raymond, and he won't look at all out of place. He's an elite skater, with high end vision and good puck skills. If he can figure out the defensive side of the game (I think he will), he'll be a legit threat all over the ice.

Malkin is an elite 2C. Draisaitl is an elite 2C. Tavares is an elite 2C.

If you think Veleno has that ceiling that's on you (he doesn't). Or maybe you shouldn't throw words like "elite" around and then expect people not to take you at face value when you make outrageous claims.

[mackel 681]

8 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Malkin is an elite 2C. Draisaitl is an elite 2C. Tavares is an elite 2C.

If you think Veleno has that ceiling that's on you (he doesn't). Or maybe you shouldn't throw words like "elite" around and then expect people not to take you at face value when you make outrageous claims.

Larkin isn't an elite 2nd center by that definition.

BUT @krsmith17 has assured me Larkin is a definite 1C.  Oh my who to believe. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

17 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Malkin is an elite 2C. Draisaitl is an elite 2C. Tavares is an elite 2C.

If you think Veleno has that ceiling that's on you (he doesn't). Or maybe you shouldn't throw words like "elite" around and then expect people not to take you at face value when you make outrageous claims.

Not a single one of those three players is a "2C". They're playing 2nd line center because they have an elite 1C ahead of them. 

I've compared him countless times to Danault, but yeah, I definitely think he's in the Malkin / Draisaitl / Tavares teir...

It's funny that some of you think it's more ridiculous to think a prospect like Veleno could be a legitimate 2C, rather than to think there's absolutely no way he could ever be a 2C...

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

Not a single one of those three players is a "2C". They're playing 2nd line center because they have an elite 1C ahead of them. 

I've compared him countless times to Danault, but yeah, I definitely think he's in the Malkin / Draisaitl / Tavares teir...

It's funny that some of you think it's more ridiculous to think a prospect like Veleno could be a legitimate 2C, rather than to think there's absolutely no way he could ever be a 2C...

All of those players are elite, and all of them play 2C. So yeah, they seem like the EXACT definition of "elite 2C" to me.

Apparently your definition of "elite 2C" is a guy who plays less, and scores less, than Jordan Staal. Lol.

[krsmith17 7,191]

6 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

All of those players are elite, and all of them play 2C. So yeah, they seem like the EXACT definition of "elite 2C" to me.

Apparently your definition of "elite 2C" is a guy who plays less, and scores less, than Jordan Staal. Lol.

No, an elite 2C to me would be a 32-35ish ranked center in the league.

Danault is a player comp and a very fair one, stylistically. He's also been, or on pace to be a 50ish point, high end 2C the past three seasons.

[kipwinger 8,524]

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

No, an elite 2C to me would be a 32-35ish ranked center in the league.

Danault is a player comp and a very fair one, stylistically. He's also been, or on pace to be a 50ish point, high end 2C the past three seasons.

So according to your definition there are a handful of 1st line centers who are actually 2nd line centers despite playing on the first line AND there are 2nd line centers who are actually 1st line centers despite having other, better, centers playing on the 1st line and being higher on the depth chart them they are?

Makes sense.

Or (and hear me out) maybe if you center the 2nd line you're a 2nd line center?

[kipwinger 8,524]

Zadina and Hronek both recalled from their loans to the Czech league today. Gotta figure the NHL and Player's Association will be announcing a start to the season before long.

[marcaractac 3,963]

12 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Malkin is an elite 2C. Draisaitl is an elite 2C. Tavares is an elite 2C.

If you think Veleno has that ceiling that's on you (he doesn't). Or maybe you shouldn't throw words like "elite" around and then expect people not to take you at face value when you make outrageous claims.

The three players you mentioned are elite 1C. They play 2C because of the circumstances of their roster. They are special cases, and very much not the norm across the league. 

I'd consider guys like Backstrom, Krejci, or Schenn actual elite second line centers. 

Having said that, I think Veleno tops out as a solid middle-six center. We still need another center of at LEAST Larkin's calibre. We're in a good spot if Veleno is a full time 3C due to the roster having two better centers. Veleno will certainly be a guy who can move up in the lineup when there are injuries, however. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 hours ago, kipwinger said:

So according to your definition there are a handful of 1st line centers who are actually 2nd line centers despite playing on the first line AND there are 2nd line centers who are actually 1st line centers despite having other, better, centers playing on the 1st line and being higher on the depth chart them they are?

Makes sense.

Exactly. And yes, it makes perfect sense.

44 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

The three players you mentioned are elite 1C. They play 2C because of the circumstances of their roster. They are special cases, and very much not the norm across the league. 

I'd consider guys like Backstrom, Krejci, or Schenn actual elite second line centers. 

This. 

44 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Having said that, I think Veleno tops out as a solid middle-six center. We still need another center of at LEAST Larkin's calibre. We're in a good spot if Veleno is a full time 3C due to the roster having two better centers. Veleno will certainly be a guy who can move up in the lineup when there are injuries, however. 

I still think Veleno could be a legitimate 2C, but yeah, ideally he will be our 3rd line center, because that will mean we have another 1C calibre player, along with Larkin, playing on our 2nd line.

[kipwinger 8,524]

2 hours ago, marcaractac said:

The three players you mentioned are elite 1C. They play 2C because of the circumstances of their roster. They are special cases, and very much not the norm across the league. 

I'd consider guys like Backstrom, Krejci, or Schenn actual elite second line centers. 

Having said that, I think Veleno tops out as a solid middle-six center. We still need another center of at LEAST Larkin's calibre. We're in a good spot if Veleno is a full time 3C due to the roster having two better centers. Veleno will certainly be a guy who can move up in the lineup when there are injuries, however. 

Of course they're not the norm. That's why they're elite. Because there aren't many of them. Elite players of any variety are "not the norm". That's what elite means. I'm having a hard time understanding how a player who isn't amongst the very best at this position (Schenn for example) can be "elite". Are there "elite" 4th line wingers too? "Elite" third pair defensemen? "Elite" backup goalies?

I presume all or most of the people on this board played hockey at some point in their lives. So they all remember the lineup that was usually written on a whiteboard somewhere in the lockroom, and which in in NHL is submitted to the league, timekeepers, and media before the game right? That's an official lineup card for the game telling everyone who's starting in what positions. That lineup has 4 forward lines on it. Whoever is centering the second line, is the 2nd line center. This isn't some big riddle to solve. Occasionally the 2nd line center is so good that they'd be a 1st line center on another team, but that's irrelevant. They play 2C. I doubt you guys would rush to call Veleno a 4th line center just because there are a handful of teams in the league for which that's where he'd play.

Edited December 16, 2020 by kipwinger

[marcaractac 3,963]

14 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Of course they're not the norm. That's why they're elite. Because there aren't many of them. Elite players of any variety are "not the norm". That's what elite means. I'm having a hard time understanding how a player who isn't amongst the very best at this position (Schenn for example) can be "elite". Are there "elite" 4th line wingers too? "Elite" third pair defensemen? "Elite" backup goalies?

I presume all or most of the people on this board played hockey at some point in their lives. So they all remember the lineup that was usually written on a whiteboard somewhere in the lockroom, and which in in NHL is submitted to the league, timekeepers, and media before the game right? That's an official lineup card for the game telling everyone who's starting in what positions. That lineup has 4 forward lines on it. Whoever is centering the second line, is the 2nd line center. This isn't some big riddle to solve. Occasionally the 2nd line center is so good that they'd be a 1st line center on another team, but that's irrelevant. They play 2C. I doubt you guys would rush to call Veleno a 4th line center just because there are a handful of teams in the league for which that's where he'd play.

Every player is of a talent level where you could project what their ideal position would be on an ideal roster based on their career production. On stacked teams, many players play below their capabilities. On s***ty teams, many players have to play above their capabilities. 

Less than one minute of career average ice time separates Crosby and Malkin. Both guys play ~20 minutes per game. Both players get first line minutes. So yeah, you look at the lineup sheet and you see Malkin on the "second line". But their "second line" plays just as much as their first.

In the end, it's a silly thing to debate, just like calling players an "elite 2C" is silly. in the end. A player is either elite or not, regardless of where they play. If a team has the depth to play elite players on second lines or second pairings, they just straight up got it good. 

[kipwinger 8,524]

Just now, marcaractac said:

Every player is of a talent level where you could project what their ideal position would be on an ideal roster based on their career production. On stacked teams, many players play below their capabilities. On s***ty teams, many players have to play above their capabilities. 

Less than one minute of career average ice time separates Crosby and Malkin. Both guys play ~20 minutes per game. Both players get first line minutes. So yeah, you look at the lineup sheet and you see Malkin on the "second line". But their "second line" plays just as much as their first.

In the end, it's a silly thing to debate, just like calling players an "elite 2C" is silly. in the end. A player is either elite or not, regardless of where they play. If a team has the depth to play elite players on second lines or second pairings, they just straight up got it good. 

I agree with all of this. Players are "elite" or not. And those "elite" players who center the second line are "elite 2C". That's exactly what I've been saying for two days. NONE of the players you mentioned are "elite". None of the players KRsmith mentioned are "elite". And certainly we wouldn't determine a player's position based on where he MIGHT play on a different team. If Luke Glendenging comes out this year and plays on the Wing's 2nd line all year, then he's a (bad) 2C until he isn't. Doesn't matter that he wouldn't do that on another team.

Also of note, Malkin's career TOI is that close to Crosby's because Crosby missed significant portions of his career with injuries. During those periods Malkin moved up the depth chart, became the 1C and got the associated minutes. The law of averages being what it is, their TOI seems seems pretty close. Crosby has averaged more TOI in 9 of the last 10 seasons. The only season he didn't was an injury plagued year in which he only suited up or 22 games.

[krsmith17 7,191]

50 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Of course they're not the norm. That's why they're elite. Because there aren't many of them. Elite players of any variety are "not the norm". That's what elite means. I'm having a hard time understanding how a player who isn't amongst the very best at this position (Schenn for example) can be "elite". Are there "elite" 4th line wingers too? "Elite" third pair defensemen? "Elite" backup goalies?

I presume all or most of the people on this board played hockey at some point in their lives. So they all remember the lineup that was usually written on a whiteboard somewhere in the lockroom, and which in in NHL is submitted to the league, timekeepers, and media before the game right? That's an official lineup card for the game telling everyone who's starting in what positions. That lineup has 4 forward lines on it. Whoever is centering the second line, is the 2nd line center. This isn't some big riddle to solve. Occasionally the 2nd line center is so good that they'd be a 1st line center on another team, but that's irrelevant. They play 2C. I doubt you guys would rush to call Veleno a 4th line center just because there are a handful of teams in the league for which that's where he'd play.

If we're being real, every single player in the NHL is "elite". They're in the top 0.0001% of hockey players in the world. Of course we're not going to call 4th line players elite though. We need to differentiate between players in the league. So if we can do that, why can't we do the same with lines? 

Babcock once labeled Helm as the best 3rd line center in the league. Was he an "elite" hockey player? Absolutely. Was he an "elite" NHL player? No. Was he an "elite" 3rd line NHL center? I would say so.

Typical kip though, latch onto one word or phrase and debate that instead of the actually topic. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "elite" to describe Veleno as a 2C. But all I meant was that I think he could be one of the better 2C's in the NHL, if everything goes right. That's what I think Veleno's ultimate ceiling is. You disagree? Cool. We'll see.

And no, as much as you want to label Malkin, Draisaitl and Tavares as 2C's, they're not. They're 1C's playing 2nd line center on a stacked team (in terms of position). Regarding the bold... Exactly. If Veleno were playing 4th line center in a few years because we had insane center depth, he wouldn't be a 4C. He would be a 2C forced down the depth chart. "This isn't some big riddle to solve". It's common sense.

[kipwinger 8,524]

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

If we're being real, every single player in the NHL is "elite". They're in the top 0.0001% of hockey players in the world. Of course we're not going to call 4th line players elite though. We need to differentiate between players in the league. So if we can do that, why can't we do the same with lines? 

Babcock once labeled Helm as the best 3rd line center in the league. Was he an "elite" hockey player? Absolutely. Was he an "elite" NHL player? No. Was he an "elite" 3rd line NHL center? I would say so.

Typical kip though, latch onto one word or phrase and debate that instead of the actually topic. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "elite" to describe Veleno as a 2C. But all I meant was that I think he could be one of the better 2C's in the NHL, if everything goes right. That's what I think Veleno's ultimate ceiling is. You disagree? Cool. We'll see.

And no, as much as you want to label Malkin, Draisaitl and Tavares as 2C's, they're not. They're 1C's playing 2nd line center on a stacked team (in terms of position). Regarding the bold... Exactly. If Veleno were playing 4th line center in a few years because we had insane center depth, he wouldn't be a 4C. He would be a 2C forced down the depth chart. "This isn't some big riddle to solve". It's common sense.

So you think Danault is "one of the best 2C in the league"?

[krsmith17 7,191]

26 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

So you think Danault is "one of the best 2C in the league"?

No, I think Danault is a very strong 2C.

I'll say this one last time... I think Joe Veleno will be a player in the mold of a Phillip Danault. In my opinion, that's his likely outcome, in terms of style and production. HOWEVER, I do think it's possible he exceeds that, making him one of the better 2nd line centers in the league.

Floor if he falls flat - reliable 3C

Ceiling if everything goes right - high end 2C

Likely falls somewhere in between - 2C

[krsmith17 7,191]

3 minutes ago, Wait&Sneed said:

Tyler Johnson = scores 40-50 pts a year = bad

Philip Danault = scores 40-50 pts a year = good

Bad contract does not equal bad player. Nice try though...

Also, Danault is 3 years younger, $2M cheaper, and a pending UFA. I wouldn't want to take on Danault either if the situation were at all the same. Hint, it's not...

Johnson was a very good 2C. That doesn't mean he will continue to be a very good 2C for the next 4 years, after already showing signs of decline (or maybe it was just a down season).

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

No, I think Danault is a very strong 2C.

I'll say this one last time... I think Joe Veleno will be a player in the mold of a Phillip Danault. In my opinion, that's his likely outcome, in terms of style and production. HOWEVER, I do think it's possible he exceeds that, making him one of the better 2nd line centers in the league.

Floor if he falls flat - reliable 3C

Ceiling if everything goes right - high end 2C

Likely falls somewhere in between - 2C

Scoring 45 points a season (on average) is not "solid" for a top six center on a good team. You realize that almost no teams win the Stanley Cup with a 2C who only score about 45 pts. The worst 2C in recent memory is Schenn and his .65 ppg is significantly better than Danault's .52 ppg. So if Veleno ends up like Danault, as you've consistently projected, he will play on the 3rd line for any playoff caliber team.

 

[kipwinger 8,524]

3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Bad contract does not equal bad player. Nice try though...

Also, Danault is 3 years younger, $2M cheaper, and a pending UFA. I wouldn't want to take on Danault either if the situation were at all the same. Hint, it's not...

Johnson was a very good 2C. That doesn't mean he will continue to be a very good 2C for the next 4 years, after already showing signs of decline (or maybe it was just a down season).

Why does the contract matter? It's not going to negatively impact the team in any conceivable way. Are you that concerned about Chris Ilitch's bank account? Bad contracts only matter if they stop you from re-signing good players or landing free agents. That's why Tampa is in this mess, for instance. Detroit will have MORE than enough money to do any and everything they want to do in free agency or to re-sign players.