Restarting the rebuild - Fully wiping the Holland slate clean

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

IMO, Bert hasnt shown me anything to think he's worth more than his current rate.  We have Vrana, Kubalik, Berggren, Rasmussen, , Veleno, Zadina, Lombardi, Hanas available down the left side.  All of them would produce with Larkin and Raymond.  IF Bertuzzi wont sign by Feb 1 for 5 mil per at his term, then deal him.  

 

One thing Im frustrated with is the "at the deadline" mentality the Wings always have.  We should be going after Chychrun RIGHT NOW.  The price is astronomical, but it's not going to get any better.  What we are losing right now is time left on his fantastic contract.  The ask from AZ is 2 firsts and prospects.  We are in a great position for that.  Our potential picks (8-16 range) are low enough to entice, but not low enough to cripple us.  2023 and 2024 firsts, Johansson, Chiarot (1/2 salary retained), and Bert.  

 

Saul Goyzerman needs to get this done.

 

 

[bIueadams 776]

37 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

You start by saying "wiping the Holland slate clean" yet you are trading Maata, Ned and Sunny, all while keeping Zadina, Veleno and Rasmussen. I am not advocating trading Veleno or Rasmussen, but I just find it funny you are not really wiping Holland's slate, you are wiping Yzerman's.

Larkin is not Yzerman's draft pick but if Yzerman didn't believe in him, he would not have made him Captain. Larkin, IMO, is a life-long Red Wing.

Bertuzzi can be dealt, as can Zadina. With Vrana and Kubilik, they are not needed. Zadina is bust central. #ThanksHolland. If teams show an interest in Ned, I'd be ok with trading him, but we've yet to see Helburg play a big role, and Cossa is far from ready. May as well keep Husso and Ned until Cossa is ready. Unless we get a "WOW" offer for Ned.

Sunny, Fabbri, Suter, Haag and Maata, and to a lessor extent, Chiarot & Perron are all stopgaps. Walman and Oesterle probably won't be here after their contracts expire. I happen to like Suter, but with Berggren and Veleno, along with Rasmussen, he doesn't really fit long run in the bottom 6. Kasper, really isn't top 6 C either. But I'll save that for when he is here and (hopefully) proving me wrong.

BTW, Yzerman was 32 when he won his first Cup so if Larkin happens to be around in his 30's when we win a Cup, so be it. I'm fine with that, as is Yzerman I assume.

Im advocating for selling Maata and Sunny bc they are expiring contracts. Bc thats what you sell at the TDL. If we're not gonna sell then keep them. But if we are gonna sell then we should sell ALL expiring contracts, including Larkin. He's not special. 

29 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

You're misrepresenting my position on Bertuzzi. I'm not advocating for SY trading Bertuzzi. If Bert wants to sign a reasonable contract in Detroit then we should sign him. I think SY WILL trade Bertuzzi though because (as I've stated) his real value is difficult to determine because of his injuries and there's not a lot of time to figure it out. Up to this point in his career Bert has not preformed better than Tomas Tatar had at the same age. So is Bert a 5.5 million a year guy? Totally. SY should sign him at 5.5mil long term. Will he sign for that? Doubtful. Is he better than that? Maybe, injuries have been a factor. Can you be sure of that before the TDL? Not likely because he's A) hurt and B) having a s***ty season.

But again, you already know all this. You're smart. You're just bored and want to be oppositional because it's good sport for you. We've been in the bottom 10 in the league since drafting Rasmussen. The first year we aren't and you're suggesting we're flirting with "perpetual mediocrity". Again, you're not dumb so it's pretty clear you're doing what you always do, which is pick an absurd position and then see if you're clever enough to defend it in a debate. Ho hum.

Your position on Bertuzzi is all built on baseless speculation. 

If choosing a clear path forward and executing it is absurd to you then you should join Holland in Edmonton. Im advocating to sell completely or not at all. Retooling is the trap that Holland fell into, and all it did was push us into mediocrity and delay the tank. 

If were gonna sell tuzzi then sell larkin too and go for a higher draft pick. 

If we're gonna build on what we have then keep both. Which we can afford to do btw even at the high dollar ends for both of them. 

[LeftWinger 4,962]

On 12/6/2022 at 4:18 PM, bIueadams said:

Im advocating for selling Maata and Sunny bc they are expiring contracts. Bc thats what you sell at the TDL. If we're not gonna sell then keep them. But if we are gonna sell then we should sell ALL expiring contracts, including Larkin. He's not special. 

 

Yes, but you are still keeping Zadina? If you are "fully" wiping Holland clean, as your title says, then Zadina, Ras and Veleno must go. I can't believe that you are even advocating keeping Zadina. He is a bust. Trade that guy for whatever you can get. Ugh, I hate Ken Holland for this.

 

Edited March 13 by LeftWinger

[bIueadams 776]

1 minute ago, LeftWinger said:

Yes, but you are still keeping Zadina? If you are "fully" wiping Holland clean, as your title says, then Zadina, Ras and Veleno must go. I can't believe that you are even advocating keeping Zadina. He is a bust. Trade that guy for whatever you can get. Ugh, I hate Ken Holland for this.

Im not advocating for keeping Zadina, I just dont know who youre gonna sell him to. He has no value. 

[kipwinger 8,524]

11 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

Im advocating for selling Maata and Sunny bc they are expiring contracts. Bc thats what you sell at the TDL. If we're not gonna sell then keep them. But if we are gonna sell then we should sell ALL expiring contracts, including Larkin. He's not special. 

Your position on Bertuzzi is all built on baseless speculation. 

If choosing a clear path forward and executing it is absurd to you then you should join Holland in Edmonton. Im advocating to sell completely or not at all. Retooling is the trap that Holland fell into, and all it did was push us into mediocrity and delay the tank. 

If were gonna sell tuzzi then sell larkin too and go for a higher draft pick. 

If we're gonna build on what we have then keep both. Which we can afford to do btw even at the high dollar ends for both of them. 

I don't have a "position" on Bertuzzi. All I've ever said is that I think a trade is likely given a few factors. You seem to be conflating my guess about Bertuzzi's future with some broader management strategy. If Bert wants to stay for a reasonable contract then SY should sign him. If he doesn't, trade him. I think the trade is more likely at this point.

SY to front office personnel: Guys, Tyler Bertuzzi is asking for more than I think he's worth. I think I'll take trade calls on him.

Front office personnel: Good, we've always hated Larkin and Hronek anyway.

SY: What does one have to do with the other?

Front office: Trade one you gotta trade em all bro.

[bIueadams 776]

24 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I don't have a "position" on Bertuzzi. All I've ever said is that I think a trade is likely given a few factors. You seem to be conflating my guess about Bertuzzi's future with some broader management strategy. If Bert wants to stay for a reasonable contract then SY should sign him. If he doesn't, trade him. I think the trade is more likely at this point.

SY to front office personnel: Guys, Tyler Bertuzzi is asking for more than I think he's worth. I think I'll take trade calls on him.

Front office personnel: Good, we've always hated Larkin and Hronek anyway.

SY: What does one have to do with the other?

Front office: Trade one you gotta trade em all bro.

I seem to be conflating "your guess on bertuzzi's future" with the topic of the thread? How ever did that happen...

Your "guess on bertuzzis future" boils down to: I cant personally deduce his value therefore hes likely to be traded. Not your typical cogent style, but by all means, roll with it. After all, im advocating for selling him anyway.

Bertuzzi should be sold because his contract is expiring and we're not gonna win diddly this year. Larkin should be sold for the exact same reason. 

[kipwinger 8,524]

11 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

I seem to be conflating "your guess on bertuzzi's future" with the topic of the thread? How ever did that happen...

Your "guess on bertuzzis future" boils down to: I cant personally deduce his value therefore hes likely to be traded. Not your typical cogent style, but by all means, roll with it. After all, im advocating for selling him anyway.

Bertuzzi should be sold because his contract is expiring and we're not gonna win diddly this year. Larkin should be sold for the exact same reason. 

 

You got me. I have an opinion on Bertuzzi's future (which doesn't apply to EVERY pending UFA) based on my own subjective interpretation of the situation. Guilty as charged.

When you have time could you please provide us with the datasets and mathematical formulas you've used to objectively determine that the correct course of action is to get rid of anyone signed or drafted by Holland? I feel like we could all learn a little from the cold, hard, facts you've used to arrive at your "trade everyone" position. 

[AtlantaHotWings 988]

So trade both nothing says they have to sign with the teams they are traded to correct?

So best of both worlds get the picks etc and tell the boys. After you have a taste of the playoffs and understand what it's about come back home and get rewarded in a HUGE HUGE way for taking one for the team...

 

[bIueadams 776]

6 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

 

You got me. I have an opinion on Bertuzzi's future (which doesn't apply to EVERY pending UFA) based on my own subjective interpretation of the situation. Guilty as charged.

When you have time could you please provide us with the datasets and mathematical formulas you've used to objectively determine that the correct course of action is to get rid of anyone signed or drafted by Holland? I feel like we could all learn a little from the cold, hard, facts you've used to arrive at your "trade everyone" position. 

Well it's actually pretty easy you see. No math involved. 

First, you stop watching the head movies in your brain. Second - and this is the most daring part - you hypothesize this team will get rolled in the playoffs. Third, you look at our expiring contracts on capfriendly. And lastly you remember Larkin isnt special. 

And there you have it. 

5 minutes ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

So trade both nothing says they have to sign with the teams they are traded to correct?

So best of both worlds get the picks etc and tell the boys. After you have a taste of the playoffs and understand what it's about come back home and get rewarded in a HUGE HUGE way for taking one for the team...

 

How often does this actually happen though?

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 minute ago, bIueadams said:

Well it's actually pretty easy you see. No math involved. 

First, you stop watching the head movies in your brain. Second - and this is the most daring part - you hypothesize this team will get rolled in the playoffs. Third, you look at our expiring contracts on capfriendly. And lastly you remember Larkin isnt special. 

And there you have it. 

How often does this actually happen though?

Good thinking. Any team that's not likely to win in the playoffs should immediately trade any/all pending free agents (provided they were signed by the previous GM). First rate thinking buddy. Apparently there is no next year, or the year after that. If you're not winning this year then you should tear it all down eh? Start another rebuild before your first one is even complete?

If Larkin isn't anything special then why would we get anything of value in return for him? And what makes you think a mid to late round pick is likely to be better than him and not another Mantha, Svech, Zadina, Cholowski, or Rasmussen? And if those picks don't pan out after 5 or 6 years and it looks like we'll "get rolled" in the playoffs do we trade Seider and Raymond and start all over again?

 

[bIueadams 776]

20 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Good thinking. Any team that's not likely to win in the playoffs should immediately trade any/all pending free agents (provided they were signed by the previous GM). First rate thinking buddy. Apparently there is no next year, or the year after that. If you're not winning this year then you should tear it all down eh? Start another rebuild before your first one is even complete?

Yes - in almost all major sports there are concepts called buyers and sellers at the trade deadline. Typically, sellers will unload their expiring contracts to the buyers. If our playoff outlook is grim come the trade deadline I would like us to follow this model and become sellers of our expiring contracts.

26 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

If Larkin isn't anything special then why would we get anything of value in return for him?

If Bertuzzi isn't anything special then why would we get anything of value in return for him?

28 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

And what makes you think a mid to late round pick is likely to be better than him and not another Mantha, Svech, Zadina, Cholowski, or Rasmussen?

Because SY is better than Holland. Do we need a refresher on the topic of the thread?

30 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

And if those picks don't pan out after 5 or 6 years and it looks like we'll "get rolled" in the playoffs do we trade Seider and Raymond and start all over again?

Yes

[marcaractac 3,963]

16 hours ago, redw1ngs said:

That was then this is now. You cant compare early days rebuild to today theres finally a light at the end of the tunnel. You dont trade your best player when your over halfway through whats shaping up to be a successful rebuild. Trading your captain warrior best player is not part the yzerplan.

Dude no deal is getting signed mid season. The tdl will pass and Larkin will sign his contract this summer.

Look. We see the Larkin situation differently and aren't gonna change each other's minds. Can we just leave it at that?

[bIueadams 776]

56 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Look. We see the Larkin situation differently and aren't gonna change each other's minds. Can we just leave it at that?

I don't see any logic behind why Larkin would wait till JUST B4 UFA TO SIGN

You're absolutely in the right here @marcaractac if we want to retain Larkin and/or bertuzzi they should be signed well b4 the deadline. When we start getting into Jan and Feb with no contract in place it's going to get very concerning.

[redw1ngs 149]

Whats with all the proposed overpayments on this site?

16 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Bertuzzi, Lindstrom, prospect and a top 10 protected 23 1st. Maybe even toss Zadina in there!

Boeser could be had for a lot less. Bertuzzi straight up is close to fair value imo maybe throw in a pick but def not a 1st.

56 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Look. We see the Larkin situation differently and aren't gonna change each other's minds. Can we just leave it at that?

Sure continue thinking that because theres no ink to paper SY and DL arent having conversations about the captains future with the team.

A contract wont be signed in the next 3 months and Larkin wont be traded. Larkin will sign his new contract this summer $8.875Mx8.

9 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

I don't see any logic behind why Larkin would wait till JUST B4 UFA TO SIGN

You're absolutely in the right here @marcaractac if we want to retain Larkin and/or bertuzzi they should be signed well b4 the deadline. When we start getting into Jan and Feb with no contract in place it's going to get very concerning.

never heard of a handshake agreement huh?

[bIueadams 776]

15 minutes ago, redw1ngs said:

Whats with all the proposed overpayments on this site?

Boeser could be had for a lot less. Bertuzzi straight up is close to fair value imo maybe throw in a pick but def not a 1st.

Sure continue thinking that because theres no ink to paper SY and DL arent having conversations about the captains future with the team.

A contract wont be signed in the next 3 months and Larkin wont be traded. Larkin will sign his new contract this summer $8.875Mx8.

never heard of a handshake agreement huh?

When was the last time you heard about one? Post any example.

[marcaractac 3,963]

34 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

I don't see any logic behind why Larkin would wait till JUST B4 UFA TO SIGN

You're absolutely in the right here @marcaractac if we want to retain Larkin and/or bertuzzi they should be signed well b4 the deadline. When we start getting into Jan and Feb with no contract in place it's going to get very concerning.

Truth. Like, I want Larkin to stay, and I think he will. He's an important part of this team and should be for at least 8 more years. 

But if the man doesn't put pen to paper before TDL, we cannot afford to risk losing him for no return. It would be devastating. This is not like Stamkos in Tampa where they were a playoff team and needed him for the playoff run, regardless of risk. This is a team rebuilding. If our best player cannot commit to staying by the deadline, we need to get a haul for him. Straight up. 

f*** this handshake agreement bulls***. There is no legal basis for a handshake. People can change their minds.  

The trade deadline is March 3. If Larkin doesn't put pen to paper by mid-February, Yzerman should be listening to offers. 

For anyone who wants to reply to this telling me how wrong I am and Larkin won't be traded and will not re-sign until after the season, please do not waste your time. I do not care.  

[bIueadams 776]

1 minute ago, marcaractac said:

Truth. Like, I want Larkin to stay, and I think he will. He's an important part of this team and should be for at least 8 more years. 

But if the man doesn't put pen to paper before TDL, we cannot afford to risk losing him for no return. It would be devastating. This is not like Stamkos in Tampa where they were a playoff team and needed him for the playoff run, regardless of risk. This is a team rebuilding. If our best player cannot commit to staying by the deadline, we need to get a haul for him. Straight up. 

f*** this handshake agreement bulls***. There is no legal basis for a handshake. People can change their minds.  

The trade deadline is March 3. If Larkin doesn't put pen to paper by mid-February, Yzerman should be listening to offers. 

For anyone who wants to reply to this telling me how wrong I am and Larkin won't be traded and will not re-sign until after the season, please do not waste your time. I do not care.  

Straight up. Imagine if we get johnny hockeyed by Larkin...

There is ZERO reason to wait until UFA to sign. @redw1ngs has no logic behind anything he's said and is a verifiable idiot. If re-signings are happening I expect they will be our Christmas presents, because after that its gonna get fukky

[redw1ngs 149]

7 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Truth. Like, I want Larkin to stay, and I think he will. He's an important part of this team and should be for at least 8 more years. 

But if the man doesn't put pen to paper before TDL, we cannot afford to risk losing him for no return. It would be devastating. This is not like Stamkos in Tampa where they were a playoff team and needed him for the playoff run, regardless of risk. This is a team rebuilding. If our best player cannot commit to staying by the deadline, we need to get a haul for him. Straight up. 

f*** this handshake agreement bulls***. There is no legal basis for a handshake. People can change their minds.  

The trade deadline is March 3. If Larkin doesn't put pen to paper by mid-February, Yzerman should be listening to offers. 

For anyone who wants to reply to this telling me how wrong I am and Larkin won't be traded and will not re-sign until after the season, please do not waste your time. I do not care.  

Your wrong.

[bIueadams 776]

Just now, redw1ngs said:

Your wrong.

You're*

Dumbass

[redw1ngs 149]

2 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

You're*

Dumbass

English isnt my first language but thanks.

[bIueadams 776]

1 minute ago, redw1ngs said:

English isnt my first language but thanks.

what's your native language?

[marcaractac 3,963]

59 minutes ago, bIueadams said:

Straight up. Imagine if we get johnny hockeyed by Larkin...

There is ZERO reason to wait until UFA to sign. @redw1ngs has no logic behind anything he's said and is a verifiable idiot. If re-signings are happening I expect they will be our Christmas presents, because after that its gonna get fukky

Any GM in a rebuild who loses their best player entering the prime of his career for nothing in UFA because of a "handshake deal" deserves to be fired. Period. Stevie Y or not. 

The only time this risk is acceptable is if it's a team primed to make a playoff run. This Wings team is not there yet.

I say this as someone who is very much pro-Larkin and wants him to be a career Wing. But he has to put pen to paper.

[bIueadams 776]

37 minutes ago, marcaractac said:

Any GM in a rebuild who loses their best player entering the prime of his career for nothing in UFA because of a "handshake deal" deserves to be fired. Period. Stevie Y or not. 

The only time this risk is acceptable is if it's a team primed to make a playoff run. This Wings team is not there yet.

I say this as someone who is very much pro-Larkin and wants him to be a career Wing. But he has to put pen to paper.

110%. Not even Holland ever let this happen besides maybe Hossa? I trust SY will either sign or trade b4 the deadline.

[amato 3,210]

Trading Larkin would be a horrible idea unless we're getting another first line center back. Our center depth behind him still isn't great.. although Copp has definitely helped. 

[marcaractac 3,963]

1 hour ago, bIueadams said:

110%. Not even Holland ever let this happen besides maybe Hossa? I trust SY will either sign or trade b4 the deadline.

Even with Hossa, the team was a cup-fav. You don't sell in that circumstance. 

5 minutes ago, amato said:

Trading Larkin would be a horrible idea unless we're getting another first line center back. Our center depth behind him still isn't great.. although Copp has definitely helped. 

Trading him for the sake of it? 100%. But if he remains unsigned come deadline time? Got to get what you can before risking losing for nothing. To be fair, IF it came to that, Larkin would be the prize of the TDL and would bring in a haul.