SY or Mo: Who Changed Everything?

[kipwinger 8,524]

Many people argue when the Red Wings rebuild really began. I'd argue the summer of 2013. That's the year management starting making their 1st round draft picks instead of trading them. We've made every 1st round pick since then. The Mantha draft. That's also more or less when it became obvious that even if we still lingered in the playoff hunt, even if we made it in we weren't a realistic Cup contender anymore. After the season of 2012 we never really had a chance. But I digress...

Over the years the narrative started to change around the Red Wings. We went from "they'll be back again soon" to analytic dorks mocking the team. Some guys that came along in that era were good (Larkin, Hronek, Bertuzzi), some were flops (Cholo, Svech, Zadina). Some stayed, some went. Nobody thought the needle was moving in the right direction overall. Now we do. Did Steve Yzerman becoming the GM change that? Or did Moritz Seider?

Debate.

Edited July 15, 2023 by kipwinger

[MDCard 48]

SY changed things.  MO is part of the change.  With SY our draft picks seem to be winners, he is not afraid to pull the trigger and make a bold move (whether it be buying out a player, trading a player like Mantha, or making a move in FA).  Most of his moves seem to good moves.  He had delivered us from the Kenny era of signing aged stars as the off season acquisition or re-treading guys for second stints like Sammy, Hudler, T. Bert.  Just my take on it.  

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

Larkin has been fantastic.  But Steve has added cornerstones in Mo and Eddog.  Those 2 picks will be his legacy in Detroit.

[LeftWinger 4,963]

I would have to say Yzerman more so. Only because I do not think Holland would've drafted Mo at the #6. If he would've been drafting D, I see Holland still taking Broberg. If he was going forward, you would hope he would've gone with Zegras or Cozens, but he probably would've reached with Poulin or Holmstrom.

Although Raymond came out firing, I think he still needs more time to see if he can be a 30-40 goal scorer. Simon is a stud, hopefully he spends only one more season in GR and makes the team soon! I also hope that Kasper and Danielson make a splash sooner rather that later, because I do believe the days of The Wings drafting in the top 10 are over. So (even though we've had the worst lottery luck in NHL lottery history) we'll never get to draft that #1 or #2 generational player. BUT, that being said, injuries play a huge role in a team's success, and although I am ready to have them turn the corner, I wouldn't mind having a shot at Cole Eiserman.

So, IMO, Yzerman changed the direction with his surprising selection of Mo Seider and also dumping most of Holland's trash.

Edited July 15, 2023 by LeftWinger

[13dangledangle 965]

I agree that Stevie Y changed it all.  As soon as he made his triumphant return the air around the team immediately changed for the better.   He preached patience but change happened quickly, firstly with the terrible Holland contracts.  Then he made some seemingly simple but great trades, and his draft picks also seemed on point.   Are all of his moves home runs?  Of course not, as he even says it takes a lot of luck along the way, but he has one of if not the best hockey mind in the league and he’s sure to have more hits than misses.  He’s making hockey exciting again in Detroit, heck I even just purchased my first Jersey since the Zetterberg one I bought in 2003.  

It’s a #93 DeBrincat jersey if anyone is wondering.  Let’s f*cking gooooooooo

Edited July 16, 2023 by 13dangledangle

[kipwinger 8,524]

All valid points on behalf of SY, but just for the sake of providing a counterpoint in favor of Seider I'd just say that pretty much everyone agrees that you need elite talent to win Cups. Most rebuilding teams hope to get that by bottoming out and drafting a superstar. Our lottery luck hasn't held up at all, so that was never an option for us. But we got that first elite piece in Seider. Nobody, including SY, though Seider would be THIS good.

It's easy to preach patience and tell the fans "change is coming but we're gonna have to find players". It's another thing entirely to point to Mo Seider and say "the change is here". The post-draft development of Seider proved that we got a top two player without a top two pick, and as much as SY and company liked him on draft day I don't think they ever dared to dream he'd be this good this quickly.

[ely s 457]

I think it´s a combination. Seider, as a future top five d-man in the league, and Yzerman, as a successfull GM and player, both make players around the league believe in the redwings. Whereas in the last Holland times ppl only came to Detroit when they were too old and overpaid. You need good cornerstones as much as a competent GM to lure players into playing for you and luckily we have both and our team starts to be the place to be again.

But I have to admit, that without Yzerman having the balls to pick Seider at #6 and recognizing what type of player he could be, it could have taken a lot longer to be where we are now.

Edited July 16, 2023 by ely s

[joesuffP 1,746]

I know Seider will be great because I already take home for granted on this team. I am more focused on guys like Edvinsson and Raymond taking a leap because Mo is just going to do his thing night in and night out

[kipwinger 8,524]

17 minutes ago, joesuffP said:

I know Seider will be great because I already take home for granted on this team. I am more focused on guys like Edvinsson and Raymond taking a leap because Mo is just going to do his thing night in and night out

That was actually the motivation for this thread. I was thinking about the embarrassment of riches the Red Wings have aged 25 and under (Ras, Raymond, Berggren, Edvinsson, Kasper, Danielson, ASP, Mazur, Cossa, Lombardi, Wallinder, Sodorblom, Johansson, etc. etc. etc.) and I realized I hadn't even remembered Seider. He's the first truly elite player we've drafted since Zetterberg??? Maybe Larkin if we're being generous. It genuinely feels like it was a complete game changer though. I'll admit that personally I was not fully convinced SY was all that great of a GM when he was first hired. But after it became clear that Seider was an elite player (sometime during his stint with Rogle) my attitude about the entire organization changed. It seemed like we finally had something to build around.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

That was actually the motivation for this thread. I was thinking about the embarrassment of riches the Red Wings have aged 25 and under (Ras, Raymond, Berggren, Edvinsson, Kasper, Danielson, ASP, Mazur, Cossa, Lombardi, Wallinder, Sodorblom, Johansson, etc. etc. etc.) and I realized I hadn't even remembered Seider. He's the first truly elite player we've drafted since Zetterberg??? Maybe Larkin if we're being generous. It genuinely feels like it was a complete game changer though. I'll admit that personally I was not fully convinced SY was all that great of a GM when he was first hired. But after it became clear that Seider was an elite player (sometime during his stint with Rogle) my attitude about the entire organization changed. It seemed like we finally had something to build around.

Youre going to love Edvinsson and Wallinder too.  Just be patient, my man.

[kipwinger 8,524]

12 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Youre going to love Edvinsson and Wallinder too.  Just be patient, my man.

No doubt, I think I'm on record somewhere saying Edvinsson is going to be better than Seider. I'm definitely not down on any of our guys picked under Yzerman. Every single one of them has performed as good, or better, than expected. But I made the thread because before Seider the idea that the Red Wings would be drafting elite players (instead of just good ones) was entirely theoretical. After Seider's second year we moved from "we need elite prospects" to "we have elite prospects" and that is an absolutely huge step for this organization that I don't think SY even knew he was getting with that pick.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

8 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

No doubt, I think I'm on record somewhere saying Edvinsson is going to be better than Seider. I'm definitely not down on any of our guys picked under Yzerman. Every single one of them has performed as good, or better, than expected. But I made the thread because before Seider the idea that the Red Wings would be drafting elite players (instead of just good ones) was entirely theoretical. After Seider's second year we moved from "we need elite prospects" to "we have elite prospects" and that is an absolutely huge step for this organization that I don't think SY even knew he was getting with that pick.

Im pretty sure Steve knew Mo was the goods.  That was a gigantic draft position jump.  I remember thinking we were taking Cozens.  I was shocked we didnt and figured we'd made a mistake.  Cozens has turned out to be fantastic too, but Im glad we have Seider instead.

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 minute ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Im pretty sure Steve knew Mo was the goods.  That was a gigantic draft position jump.  I remember thinking we were taking Cozens.  I was shocked we didnt and figured we'd made a mistake.  Cozens has turned out to be fantastic too, but Im glad we have Seider instead.

Good point.

[bIueadams 776]

It's all Stevie Y, and Mo is a product of him.

That said Mo is a generational talent. I stand by that. He's 22 and arguably one of the best Dmen in the league. He's on pace to shatter hitting and blocked shot records. He also scores points if that matters. We drafted our own Chelios.

53 is going to end up in the rafters one day.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

12 hours ago, bIueadams said:

It's all Stevie Y, and Mo is a product of him.

That said Mo is a generational talent. I stand by that. He's 22 and arguably one of the best Dmen in the league. He's on pace to shatter hitting and blocked shot records. He also scores points if that matters. We drafted our own Chelios.

53 is going to end up in the rafters one day.

He's solid.  Youre going to like ASP, Wallinder, and Edvinsson too.  Mark my words.

[bIueadams 776]

6 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

He's solid.  Youre going to like ASP, Wallinder, and Edvinsson too.  Mark my words.

I like all 3 of those prospects. But I also think theyre cieling is like Kronwall level. No dissrespect to Kronwall, but hes not in the same echelon as Lidstrom, Pronger, Chelios... which is the echelon I think Seider is in.

[town123 175]

If ASP can be a Rafalski .. count me in.

 

[bIueadams 776]

11 minutes ago, town123 said:

If ASP can be a Rafalski .. count me in.

 

I think ASP is probably our blue chip that is more of a project. He needs to add weight and learn defense and will take more time bc of this. But i think SY is probably also going to send Kronwall to sleep on his bottom bunk at his home in sweden with him for the next two years. His birth family will be locked in their garage, and he will learn to call Kronner papa. This should speed the process up a bit.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 hour ago, bIueadams said:

I think ASP is probably our blue chip that is more of a project. He needs to add weight and learn defense and will take more time bc of this. But i think SY is probably also going to send Kronwall to sleep on his bottom bunk at his home in sweden with him for the next two years. His birth family will be locked in their garage, and he will learn to call Kronner papa. This should speed the process up a bit.

Floor/Ceiling:

Edvinsson will be like Jiri Fischer (full Sayan Version/Victor Hedman (Cup Winner version).

Wallinder will be like Slava Fetisov (old Red Wings version)/Slava Fetisov (young CCP version).

ASP will be like Matthew Dandeneault (slightly rslurred version)/Brian Rafalski (NJ Devils version)

Tuomisto will be like Antti Tuomisto (zit faced scando rslur pylon version)/Antti Tuomisto (zit armed and zit backed ultra roided up nobody f u c k s with us mega scando chad version).

 

[kipwinger 8,524]

I genuinely don't know a ton about ASP, but I recall hearing that he's a willing defender that can even be physical. He just needs to add strength. Is that more or less accurate? It's hard to imagine SY picking a guy who's bad defensively AND doesn't compete.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

3 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I genuinely don't know a ton about ASP, but I recall hearing that he's a willing defender that can even be physical. He just needs to add strength. Is that more or less accurate? It's hard to imagine SY picking a guy who's bad defensively AND doesn't compete.

he's a between the blue lines guy right now.  But he's reaaly really good between them.  Outsdanding edge work and agility.  top speed needs work, endurance needs work.  Needs a lot of gym work to get to be trusted along the boards, behind the net, and in front of the net.  in short, he has a lot of what's hard to teach and not a lot of what's easy to teach but takes a lot of dedication.

[bIueadams 776]

15 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I genuinely don't know a ton about ASP, but I recall hearing that he's a willing defender that can even be physical. He just needs to add strength. Is that more or less accurate? It's hard to imagine SY picking a guy who's bad defensively AND doesn't compete.

Pretty much.

17 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

he's a between the blue lines guy right now.  But he's reaaly really good between them.  Outsdanding edge work and agility.  top speed needs work, endurance needs work.  Needs a lot of gym work to get to be trusted along the boards, behind the net, and in front of the net.  in short, he has a lot of what's hard to teach and not a lot of what's easy to teach but takes a lot of dedication.

@kipwinger Jonas takes are usually strange, but I agree with most of this here.

"he's a between the blue lines guy". Which I assume Scott means he likes to defend in the neutral zone. Which he does. From what I've seen he's aggressive at the red line and defensive blue line, and likes to shutdown the opponents transition before they can enter the zone. In general he likes to close gaps instead of sitting back on his haunches.

Many consider his skating to be elite. But his edgework, agility, and lateral movement are really impressive. He's a guy that can walk a blue line with the puck for days. And he's patient with the puck waiting for lanes to open... or pump faking, or head/shoulder faking, to create lanes.

Cant really comment on his endurance.

I'll add that I can't really comment on things like gap control or inzone offense during an opponents cycle, as I really just haven't seen enough to say. He's just so over-powered offensively that it's easy to consider him a pure offensive Dman I think. He's also undersized as a defender, which makes one think he won't be a defensive stalwart in the NHL. But so was Rafalski and guys like Crosby would tell you Rafalski was a nightmare to have to get around. So who knows, I guess we have to wait till gets to GR. But I'm also pretty sure I heard Draper or Horcoff say that they don't expect ASP in NA soon. That they expect him to play in the SHL for a few years and level up. And that's my biggest question on him. He can terrorize U20's, but can he do it against men? He hasn't really proven that yet. But I do think he can create offense at the NHL level. His instincts, shot, passing is all way ahead of the game.

 

[kipwinger 8,524]

It’s basically to the point for me where if I see a guy in the SHL at 17yo putting up ANY points I’m going to conclude the dude is a legit player. Its definitely already a noticeable trend.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

It’s basically to the point for me where if I see a guy in the SHL at 17yo putting up ANY points I’m going to conclude the dude is a legit player. Its definitely already a noticeable trend.

 

Some highlights to give you an idea.  Pretty greasy mitts and A+ lateral movement.  Just undersized right now is all.  This kid IS our future 2RHD.  He's got the hockey IQ and keeps his feet moving at all times. He just needs to put on the freshman 15 to get to 175 lbs.

[bIueadams 776]

18 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

 

Some highlights to give you an idea.  Pretty greasy mitts and A+ lateral movement.  Just undersized right now is all.  This kid IS our future 2RHD.  He's got the hockey IQ and keeps his feet moving at all times. He just needs to put on the freshman 15 to get to 175 lbs.

The thing he has that lets me KNOW he's going to be good, just like I knew Zadina was going to be bad, is instincts. He's clearly reading plays faster than all 9 other players on the ice. That's what made Zberg, Dats, and Lids great, and that's ASP's best bet to becoming great. If he can keep his head up and scan the ice and read plays the same way at defense he'll turn into a monster Dman.