Penguins franchise deserves no credit

[Pens66 0]

Post by post, Redwings fans sink to the intelligence level of Rangers and Flyers fan.

That post has sunk you to the aforementioned level.

[jawbreaker 0]

This topic is just stupid. One thing that scares me, if the Caps would had picked Malkin over Ovechkin, then we would be facing Crosby + Ovechkin

[Opie 308]

This topic is just stupid. One thing that scares me, if the Caps would had picked Malkin over Ovechkin, then we would be facing Crosby + Ovechkin

Don't do that again I actually almost shat my pants over the thought!!!!!!

[eva unit zero 271]

please go and do some research on how many original draft choices we've had on our team the last 15 years.

After that go and research how many players we've acquired through trades for original draft choices (Maltby from Edm for org. draft choice D. Dan McGillis) and how many players we've acquired for cheap that weren't wanted by other teams (Kris Draper for $1 Winnepeg). Even when we acquired Brendan Shanahan we gave up an original drafted player (Ray Shepard and a draft pick).

Shanahan was acquired with D Brian Glynn for C Keith Primeau and D Paul Coffey. Wings also lost Grimson to the Whalers because they had to waive somebody to activate, and thus trade, Primeau.

Sheppard was not drafted by the Wings; he was acquired for cheap from the Rangers, and was traded to San Jose in 1996 for Igor Larionov.

Then go and research how many other teams could've drafted Lidstrom, Federov, Osgood, McCarty, Slava Kozlov, Niklas Kronvall, Mathieu Dandenault, Yzerman, Zetterburg and Datsyuk among the many others. Hell, we drafted Vladamir Konstantinov in the 11th round, 221st overall, anybody could've had him!

Yzerman went 4th overall. Konstantinov, Fedorov, and Lidstrom were drafted before the influx of Europeans, and nobody was sure if they would ever play a game in the NHL.

Then go talk to a Rangers fan and ask them what are the benefits of having a high payroll when you miss the playoffs. It's not as easy as it seems.

It's not just about having a high payroll; it's about signing the right players. Dallas Drake is a perfect example. St. Louis bought him out, captaincy and all, before this season. They felt he had nothing left to provide. Kenny Holland picked him up as an experienced PK specialist who brought leadership and a physical edge; which is all he would have been used for in St. Louis, and Drake was just named first star in the clinching game of the WCF.

The Red Wings have consistently picked up players via small trades or FA signings of all ages that few, if any, teams were interested in (Brett Hull, Luc Robitaille, Jason Williams, Manny Legace, Kris Draper, Kirk Maltby, Joe Kocur in 1996-97, and many more.)

The Rangers, OTOH, have been and still are notorious for throwing large contracts at past-their-prime stars or acquiring highly paid stars, or players coming off one really strong season. Shanahan, Jagr, Straka are examples of the first group; Drury, Gomez, and more are examples of the second.

Picking up the top guy at his position on the market is not a great move if you pay more than he's worth, and proceed to pick up a guy who doesn't fit your system or have chemistry with your other players. Detroit has made one big offseason move since the lockout; acquiring Brian Rafalski. He replaces Mathieu Schneider, and is a much better fit for our system than Schneider was, at an equal cost to what Schneider would have cost. Detroit tried to sign brad Stuart in the summer, but ended up with him at the deadline instead.

See how that works? Identify players that would work in your system, and go after them, rather than identifying the player who has performed the best in his CURRENT system, and try to make him work in a new one.

It's the same reason Detroit has been able to draft well so low; they draft players based on things like puck skills and ice vision, the most important skills in Detroit's system. Other teams draft based on other criteria, often putting too much emphasis on size. It's why Scotty Bowman, for all his successes, failed miserably when drafting for the Wings. Seriously; the best player Bowman drafted was Tomas Holmstrom, and after him you have Mathieu Dandenault and Yan Golubovsky. Holland has drafted much better than Bowman, and there is a reason for that. Holland himself was a top scout within the Wings organization, he scouted guys that helped us win Cups, some guys who are still helping us to win Cups, and he knows the scouting team we have because he worked with all of them. He knows when to trust which scout on what types of players; because everyone has tendencies towards certain things when they evaluate players. The long-term front-office team has been a huge reason for the Wings' consistent success. Because they can consistently find the right players to fit in their system, rather than just trying to add top end talent. This isn't the NBA, and the Rangers need to learn that having a few elite players and some scrubs doesn't work in the NHL unless everyone plays well together. In the NBA, you can see one great player will his team deep into the postseason irrespective of his team's performance. This CANNOT happen in the NHL.

Edited May 21, 2008 by eva unit zero

[gordie_howe 0]

If the Pens failed to make the playoffs, or got knocked out early, this failure of a thread wouldn't exist.

Seems like a case of sour grapes to me.

Oh yeah, Mario's a quitter for coming back twice from Hodgkins disease.

[Manoir 70]

When practically the entire board disagrees with you (and the one person who does "get it" is Princess over there) that's not really a good thing.

You still didn't answer the question: Why don't the Penguins deserve credit for the 14 of 19 players they use that weren't top-5 draft picks.

Finally, you want to know the truly ironic thing? You know how you were proposing a lottery for the draft that includes all 30 teams? The league has actually done that once. So your idea worked. That's how the Pens got Crosby.

Because the supporting cast always looks better when you have such a great top5 nucleus. If the Penguins didn't have Crosby/Malkin, you wouldn't know who Talbot is. If you look at the supporting cast of the Pens, would you say they are far superior to the supporting cast of most other teams? In today's parity NHL, in most cases it'll be the top 5 that is going to seperate the top teams from the rest. In the Penguins case, their nucleus was not the result of any great skill on managements' part, they had the good fortune of being in the right place at the right time. Did they break the rules?No. Do I blame the Pens for taking those players?No. I'm just saying that in my opinion the system is unfair.

Yes, everyone had a chance to get crosby. However, teams like the Pens had a 3X greater chance than some other teams. That's not what I propose. I think a draft in which every team has an equal shot at the #1 pick is the way to go. Here is why I feel this way. Take Chicago and Vancouver. Most would agree that over the years the Canucks have done a better job at building a team than the Hawks. However, the way the draft works the Hawks now have Kane and Toews to build around and the Canucks are kind of stuck in no man's land. The Canucks roster is not good enough to make the teams amongst the league's elite and not bad enough to get the top 5 picks. So their only hope of moving into elite status is try to make a tarde for a franchise player(very had to do) or find some players that have been overlooked in the draft (again very hard to accomplish). So why should should a team that has done an inferior job be rewarded with franchise players? Now you take Pittsburgh and the situation is even worse, they had 4 consecutive top 2 picks, it's like having Kane and Toews and adding 2 superstars along with them. Poor Vancouver.

[Icteria virens 11]

Yzerman went 4th overall. Konstantinov, Fedorov, and Lidstrom were drafted before the influx of Europeans, and nobody was sure if they would ever play a game in the NHL.

[

there was never a problem with Lidstrom playing in the NHL, Sweden was no communist country, re: the others you're right, (of course many players were defecting) but why don't you as a red wing "fan" give your favorite team some credit for being proactive and drafting from Europe , both behind and in front of the iron curtain? The DRW organization has always been very proactive in Euro scouting, whether that be Russia, USSR, Czech, Sweden etc.

so give the team some credit.

[Winged Scooter 0]

The name Maria Lemucks and the word heroics have no business in the same sentence. He quit the league. He's a quitter. Watch out for the quitter.

Okay, I realize that Dakine is in Hawaii, so I won't see a response to this until tomorrow, but classifying Mario as a quitter, and implying he is a GIRL, is THE most stupid, idiotic, assinine thing I have read on these boards in quite some time. Grow up, and learn a little hockey history ...dude....

[Icteria virens 11]

Okay, I realize that Dakine is in Hawaii, so I won't see a response to this until tomorrow, but classifying Mario as a quitter, and implying he is a GIRL, is THE most stupid, idiotic, assinine thing I have read on these boards in quite some time. Grow up, and learn a little hockey history ...dude....

it's a chick, nuff said, If she had to fight thru Luekemia twice, she'd have more respect

[imisssergei 0]

Because the supporting cast always looks better when you have such a great top5 nucleus. If the Penguins didn't have Crosby/Malkin, you wouldn't know who Talbot is. If you look at the supporting cast of the Pens, would you say they are far superior to the supporting cast of most other teams? In today's parity NHL, in most cases it'll be the top 5 that is going to seperate the top teams from the rest. In the Penguins case, their nucleus was not the result of any great skill on managements' part, they had the good fortune of being in the right place at the right time. Did they break the rules?No. Do I blame the Pens for taking those players?No. I'm just saying that in my opinion the system is unfair.

Yes, everyone had a chance to get crosby. However, teams like the Pens had a 3X greater chance than some other teams. That's not what I propose. I think a draft in which every team has an equal shot at the #1 pick is the way to go. Here is why I feel this way. Take Chicago and Vancouver. Most would agree that over the years the Canucks have done a better job at building a team than the Hawks. However, the way the draft works the Hawks now have Kane and Toews to build around and the Canucks are kind of stuck in no man's land. The Canucks roster is not good enough to make the teams amongst the league's elite and not bad enough to get the top 5 picks. So their only hope of moving into elite status is try to make a tarde for a franchise player(very had to do) or find some players that have been overlooked in the draft (again very hard to accomplish). So why should should a team that has done an inferior job be rewarded with franchise players? Now you take Pittsburgh and the situation is even worse, they had 4 consecutive top 2 picks, it's like having Kane and Toews and adding 2 superstars along with them. Poor Vancouver.

You could argue the same for the Wings. If they didn't have Pav/Hank you wouldn't see Franzen, Rex, Flip, ect. putting up the numbers they do.

How can you argue that the Pens management didn't show any skill? Outside of Crosby, the other guys were all solid picks. Everyone knew Crosby would be a star. Letang was taken 62nd overall, Kennedy was taken 99th, Talbot was taken 234th, and don't forget Fleury, the Pens traded up to get him. The Pens management has drafted very well, and made a few necessary small moves to get where they needed to be. Great example again is Fleury. If the Pens don't make that trade, who do they draft, Staal? Zherdev? If they don't make that pick, they aren't where they are today.

The Canucks problem is they don't draft well. Great example, they select the Sedin twins in 99. By doing this they passed on Connolly, Jackman, Boynton, Havlat, and Commodore. The only saving grace is that they didn't instead try to trade up for Stefan. I'm not saying any of the players that they passed on are necessarily better or would have been better picks. This is the point. Yes, the Pens have had good luck with the high draft picks they have made. You can't fault the system for working as it should. However, Pens management made wise late round selections. They deserve a lot of credit there.

Again, just because a team finishes last, doesn't mean they are garunteed a franchise player, just ask Atlanta how the Stefan experiment worked out for them. Better yet, look at Detroit's draft history. The Wings have only hit 2 true studs in the first round of the draft, Yzerman and Dionne.In 90 Detroit took Primeau over Jagr, Tkchuk, Kidd, Sydor, Hatcher, oh and some guy named Brodeur. In 87 Detroit passed on Sakic and Marchment to take Yves Racine! In 86 with the first overall selection Detroit took Joe Murphy over Leetch, and Damphousse. Drafting players isn't a science. Number one picks don't always emerge into stars.

[Misty Belle 0]

dude, I'm no pens fan by any mean but they sucked for five long years. Can you imagine watching a team play that bad year after year after year? They earned those high picks by sucking balls. There's a lottery now and they won Crosby fair and square in the lottery so I don't see anything wrong with what they've done. They just don't have a god like scouting department like the wings to find gems in the 5th and 7th round of thed raft.

you obviously weren't a Wings fan from 1955 till 1997.

[dw185 0]

The Penguins are proof that the way the draft works is really not fair, especially in the salary cap era. I say all 30 picks in the 1st round of the draft should be randomly selected, each team gets a 1/30 chance of getting the top pick. The Penguins suck for 5 years, get all those picks and now are suddenly one of the best, doesn't seem fair for all those other teams that were actually trying to win. The fact that there is a cap now means teams getting those high picks benefit even more because for the first couple of years they have those players for a relatively low salary. The fact that there is a cap now has taken away the excuse that a small market team can only build through the draft. I hate the Penguins.

the wings have had low picks every year and have stayed at the top. It's called good scouting and good management. The draft is set up the way it is so that the same team doesn't dominate year in and year out. As a red wings fan, we have no room to speak on how the draft is fair or unfair. we've done pretty damned good for ourselves despite having low draft picks. look at zetterberg and datsyuk. 210th and 171st overall respectively. Just goes to show you that the draft system is completely fair. look at how many high ranking picks never did crap for a team? I'm not sticking up for pittsburgh here as i am destroying the entire idea that the draft system is somehow unfair. There are teams like the red wings that don't need a fair draft system to thrive. It's called good scouting and good management. Maybe pittsburgh had good luck off of good picks because they were terrible, or maybe they have a decent management team as well that made a few decent trades here and there to get some good players (IE Hossa).

There are plenty of other reasons to trash on the Penguins besides getting lucky and getting good draft picks. If being a terrible team is some kind of game plan in order to get good draft picks, then count me out. I don't ever want to see the wings have an abysmal season just for a good draft pick.

BTW, one of my biggest gripes about the penguins is the slavish coverage that the media gives them. Sydney Crosby is gods gift to hockey as far as some of the media are concerned and it bothers the hell out of me.

[DaKineMaui 8]

Fine...I'll back off...

By all means, don't.

BetterRed - mahalos for the intro, but no need.

When an NHL player QUITS the NHL because he doesn't like the way the NHL game is being called, that makes him an NHL quitter. Mario Lemux quit. I have ZERO respect for him. Best ice hockey player I've ever seen? Yes. Respect? Again. Zero. It's Yashin-esque.

Prolly hard to grasp if you're a hardcore Pens fan, and I understand that.

[Guest LivingtheDream]

Fortunately, from my short stay here so far...your narrow vision is not indicative of Red Wing fans...

Are you sure you arent from Philly?

Zing!!!!

[DaKineMaui 8]

it's a chick, nuff said, If she had to fight thru Luekemia twice, she'd have more respect

f***face,

My left ass cheek has forgotten more about hockey than you'll ever know.

*****.

EDIT::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

On a nicer note: Please. As mentioned, Lemux is the finest hockey player I've ever watched. A lot. But do your own research OK?

He quit the game when he didn;t like the way they were calling it. Look. It. Up.

My despise toward him has NOTHING to do with any cancer he has suffered.

Edited May 22, 2008 by DaKineMaui

[The Noodle 39 14]

What is going on with this forum and these topics? lol wow..

[DaKineMaui 8]

What is going on with this forum and these topics? lol wow..

Hey - it's the playoffs - get the kids off the sidewalk. Daddy's comin' home.

[ThreeRiversFan 0]

By all means, don't.

BetterRed - mahalos for the intro, but no need.

When an NHL player QUITS the NHL because he doesn't like the way the NHL game is being called, that makes him an NHL quitter. Mario Lemux quit. I have ZERO respect for him. Best ice hockey player I've ever seen? Yes. Respect? Again. Zero. It's Yashin-esque.

Prolly hard to grasp if you're a hardcore Pens fan, and I understand that.

Wow....

Simply put...Lemieux RESIGNED due to health reasons and health reasons alone...

During the Flyers playoff series that year...he could barely skate...

Yes..he was vocal about the NHL becoming a garage league...and quite frankly...it was....

Due to his health..he could no longer play to the standards that he himself set...

perhaps more modern atheletes should do the same, rather than hang on pathetically trying to make one more million dollars....

He took 3 years off and attempted a comeback...the franchise...HIS FRANCHISE...needed a boost...but he was never the same...

made a nice run to the ECF in 2001 and 2006....

If you dont like Mario...so be it..your perogative....BUT.....

Before flaming people..imploring them to DO RESEARCH...perhaps you should do the same

[pghkid 0]

f***face,

My left ass cheek has forgotten more about hockey than you'll ever know.

*****.

EDIT::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

On a nicer note: Please. As mentioned, Lemux is the finest hockey player I've ever watched. A lot. But do your own research OK?

He quit the game when he didn;t like the way they were calling it. Look. It. Up.

My despise toward him has NOTHING to do with any cancer he has suffered.

1. i dont know how YOU did research when you dont even know how to spell his name! maybe there is some other player named lemux who quit playing and we are talking about 2 different people.

2. LEMIEUX couldnt barely walk at one point, let alone skate. he was soon after diagnosed w/ hodgkins disease which is a form of cancer. this is the reason he retired from hockey.

3. this thread is bringing out some of the most unintelligent wings fans on this board. it seriously needs to die because its riddled w/ stupid comments.

Edited May 22, 2008 by pghkid

[eva unit zero 271]

1. i dont know how YOU did research when you dont even know how to spell his name! maybe there is some other player named lemux who quit playing and we are talking about 2 different people.

2. LEMIEUX couldnt barely walk at one point, let alone skate. he was soon after diagnosed w/ hodgkins disease which is a form of cancer. this is the reason he retired from hockey.

3. this thread is bringing out some of the most unintelligent wings fans on this board. it seriously needs to die because its riddled w/ stupid comments.

Technically, DakineMaui is correct. Lemieux abruptly retired in the mid 90s because he didn't like the clutch and grab hockey. He said it was because he felt he couldn't play to 'his' standards. Which is a completely absurd statement; his nearest competitor for the Art Ross was 13 points behind. The last time he posted a gap larger than that? 1988-89, when he won the scoring title by 31 points. In 1992 and 1993 he won by 12 points, and in 1996 he won by 11 points. Combine that with the fact that of all of those seasons, Lemieux's 122 points in 1996-97 were his lowest total to lead the league, and you can see that the gap was greater than 10% of his point total for the first time since 1989.

He quit because he didn't like the way games were being called.

He is a great player, but he quit because he couldn't break 150 points due to clutch and grab hockey. He didn't quit because he couldn't play to his standards; unless his standards are number-based on him scoring at a certain level rather than based simply on being the top scorer.

Doesn't make Dakine right to not respect Mario; that is a matter of opinion. but his assessment that Lemieux quit because he didn't like the officiating is spot on.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Technically, DakineMaui is correct. Lemieux abruptly retired in the mid 90s because he didn't like the clutch and grab hockey. He said it was because he felt he couldn't play to 'his' standards. Which is a completely absurd statement; his nearest competitor for the Art Ross was 13 points behind. The last time he posted a gap larger than that? 1988-89, when he won the scoring title by 31 points. In 1992 and 1993 he won by 12 points, and in 1996 he won by 11 points. Combine that with the fact that of all of those seasons, Lemieux's 122 points in 1996-97 were his lowest total to lead the league, and you can see that the gap was greater than 10% of his point total for the first time since 1989.

He quit because he didn't like the way games were being called.

He is a great player, but he quit because he couldn't break 150 points due to clutch and grab hockey. He didn't quit because he couldn't play to his standards; unless his standards are number-based on him scoring at a certain level rather than based simply on being the top scorer.

Doesn't make Dakine right to not respect Mario; that is a matter of opinion. but his assessment that Lemieux quit because he didn't like the officiating is spot on.

I think it's grossly inaccurate to imply that's why he retired.

It may have been one of the reasons cited and Mario was fairly outspoken about things he didn't like in the league, but clutch and grab hockey wasn't the only reason. For years he had played with severe and chronic back problems that required multiple surgeries, a herniated disc, chronic tendinitis in his hips, a bone infection, then there was also the whole cancer thing.

He struggled through painful and constant injuries in his career and had enough. It wasn't just the clutching and grabbing.

[eva unit zero 271]

I think it's grossly inaccurate to imply that's why he retired.

It may have been one of the reasons cited and Mario was fairly outspoken about things he didn't like in the league, but clutch and grab hockey wasn't the only reason. For years he had played with severe and chronic back problems that required multiple surgeries, a herniated disc, chronic tendinitis in his hips, a bone infection, then there was also the whole cancer thing.

He struggled through painful and constant injuries in his career and had enough. It wasn't just the clutching and grabbing.

It was the primary reason he cited in 1997, and it had more to do with the clutching and grabbing than him not dominating the league, as he obviously had less trouble scoring points than anyone else.

I am not saying Dakine is right to not respect Lemieux, but he is right on that a major reason Lemieux retired in 1997 is the officiating.

[Dr Rosenrosen 0]

Technically, DakineMaui is correct. Lemieux abruptly retired in the mid 90s because he didn't like the clutch and grab hockey. He said it was because he felt he couldn't play to 'his' standards. Which is a completely absurd statement; his nearest competitor for the Art Ross was 13 points behind. The last time he posted a gap larger than that? 1988-89, when he won the scoring title by 31 points. In 1992 and 1993 he won by 12 points, and in 1996 he won by 11 points. Combine that with the fact that of all of those seasons, Lemieux's 122 points in 1996-97 were his lowest total to lead the league, and you can see that the gap was greater than 10% of his point total for the first time since 1989.

He quit because he didn't like the way games were being called.

He is a great player, but he quit because he couldn't break 150 points due to clutch and grab hockey. He didn't quit because he couldn't play to his standards; unless his standards are number-based on him scoring at a certain level rather than based simply on being the top scorer.

Doesn't make Dakine right to not respect Mario; that is a matter of opinion. but his assessment that Lemieux quit because he didn't like the officiating is spot on.

Is it reasonable to assume that, if you're leaving anyway and you think can make a difference in the future of the game, you might make a statement like that on the way out as a wake up call to the league?

[eva unit zero 271]

Is it reasonable to assume that, if you're leaving anyway and you think can make a difference in the future of the game, you might make a statement like that on the way out as a wake up call to the league?

Now we're speculating on the motivation behind Lemieux's comments.

But ultimately, all I said was that "this is what Lemieux said" and "this is how he did in his final season" therefore "this is likely a more accurate interpretation of those comments."

I was simply saying that from Dakine's point of view, if he doesn't feel someone who retired because of the refs deserves respect, that's his opinion. Based on Lemieux's own words, and how his play compared with that of others in his 'final' season, that's what he did.

[ThreeRiversFan 0]

Is it reasonable to assume that, if you're leaving anyway and you think can make a difference in the future of the game, you might make a statement like that on the way out as a wake up call to the league?

THIS is where the misconception comes from...

Lemieux left for health reasons...and nothing but health reasons....

And yes..he was very outspoken about the league...with damn good reason...he was trying to make an impact