Penguins franchise deserves no credit

[Manoir 70]

The Penguins are proof that the way the draft works is really not fair, especially in the salary cap era. I say all 30 picks in the 1st round of the draft should be randomly selected, each team gets a 1/30 chance of getting the top pick. The Penguins suck for 5 years, get all those picks and now are suddenly one of the best, doesn't seem fair for all those other teams that were actually trying to win. The fact that there is a cap now means teams getting those high picks benefit even more because for the first couple of years they have those players for a relatively low salary. The fact that there is a cap now has taken away the excuse that a small market team can only build through the draft. I hate the Penguins.

[betterREDthandead 58]

The Penguins are proof that the way the draft works is really not fair, especially in the salary cap era. I say all 30 picks in the 1st round of the draft should be randomly selected, each team gets a 1/30 chance of getting the top pick. The Penguins suck for 5 years, get all those picks and now are suddenly one of the best, doesn't seem fair for all those other teams that were actually trying to win. The fact that there is a cap now means teams getting those high picks benefit even more because for the first couple of years they have those players for a relatively low salary. The fact that there is a cap now has taken away the excuse that a small market team can only build through the draft. I hate the Penguins.

They would have played for a low salary to begin with. There was always a max entry-level deal. The fact that there's a cap helps them keep their players, otherwise the Pens could never afford the bidding war that would have ensued.

And your accusation that the Pens weren't trying to win is disgusting. During the late '90s the Penguins always managed to put together an against-the-odds playoff series win or two. Actually they strung along their success far longer than they should have been able to. Eventually, as always, it came crashing down.

Pretty much every word of this post is wrong.

Edit: I thought about changing out the word "disgusting". A bit too harsh, maybe? Not usually my style. But no - an accusation that a team was tanking it when they clearly were not, especially during a very rough and uncertain time when the organization was being jerked around by various governmental entities....no, I think it's a fair word.

[hckypete96 3]

dude, I'm no pens fan by any mean but they sucked for five long years. Can you imagine watching a team play that bad year after year after year? They earned those high picks by sucking balls. There's a lottery now and they won Crosby fair and square in the lottery so I don't see anything wrong with what they've done. They just don't have a god like scouting department like the wings to find gems in the 5th and 7th round of thed raft.

[DraperFan MN 0]

Pretty much every word of this post is wrong.

[stormboy 47]

silly thread is silly.

it's a fine system that, to my limited knowledge, is roughly similar in most other major sports. and it's not as if the draft pick order is the singularly most important thing in hockey. look at where most of our stars came in the draft. and to say that the penguins organization deserves no credit is silly. just because you have high draft picks doesn't mean that you'll actually draft the right people. they've built a relatively complete team over the last few years with a good goalie, good forwards (obviously), some guys that can move the puck on d and some hitters. they've also got some tough guys. they deserve credit for building a team that isn't just all snipers.

[Pens66 0]

dude, I'm no pens fan by any mean but they sucked for five long years. Can you imagine watching a team play that bad year after year after year? They earned those high picks by sucking balls. There's a lottery now and they won Crosby fair and square in the lottery so I don't see anything wrong with what they've done. They just don't have a god like scouting department like the wings to find gems in the 5th and 7th round of thed raft.

Support that statement.

If the draft were random every year, surely various teams would be left out in the cold with low picks every year. Even a team like Detroit who was a bigger spender than the Pens, eventually with nothing but low picks they'd be putting a garbage team out there year after year, which equals dwindling fan interest, which equals (not saying specifically Detroit, but a lot of markets) relocations, franchises folding, etc.... Exactly what almost buried the NHL the first time around.

We suffered through Rico Fata, Kelly Bucheberger, had a year where Dick Tarnstrom was the team leader in scoring. We lost Jags, Lang, Straka, Kovy, Mario, and scores more in that time period.

Crooked politics almost cost us our team which consistantly drew more than a wide array of NHL teams in less viable markets. Where was the talk of relocating the NJ Devils or the Florida Panthers? Thanks to incredible pre and post-lockout management by the Lemieux ownership group, GM Ray Shero, and others, the Pens put themselves in a good position BEHIND THE SCENES, while scores upon scores of marginal-at-best NHL'ers played their hearts out for an inferior coach (Edzo) in an aging building with ZERO luxury amenities and where it was IMPOSSIBLE to turn a profit, even with playoff revenues.

If anything, Lemieux and the players who have come up through the Penguins system through the draft have stuck it out through the bad times and put themselves in a great position to win. We got Sidney and Malkin, but it wasn't as if the organization rolled over and died to get them. They had no choice but to not be competitive during those years.

The ironic thing is that with the salary cap in place and a new arena on the horizon, the Pens, with increased revenue streams, will wind up eventually being hindered by the cap instead of helped. It allowed them the opportunity to be a winner, and when it gets to the point where it'd be uncompetitive for the other teams, the system puts them down a peg. At that point their fates will be again decided through the draft. Some other team will be the lucky ones.

It's a testament to the system and the parity it provides throughout the league. The OP has no idea what he's talking about.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Pens66

[thedisappearer 291]

Even a team like Detroit who was a bigger spender than the Pens, eventually with nothing but low picks they'd be putting a garbage team out there year after year

FAIL.

All Detroit has had for the past decade is low picks. Haven't seen a garbage team with the winged wheel in quite a while.

[reggiedunlop 0]

The Penguins are proof that the way the draft works is really not fair, especially in the salary cap era. I say all 30 picks in the 1st round of the draft should be randomly selected, each team gets a 1/30 chance of getting the top pick. The Penguins suck for 5 years, get all those picks and now are suddenly one of the best, doesn't seem fair for all those other teams that were actually trying to win. The fact that there is a cap now means teams getting those high picks benefit even more because for the first couple of years they have those players for a relatively low salary. The fact that there is a cap now has taken away the excuse that a small market team can only build through the draft. I hate the Penguins.

all of us in pgh are saddened by your feelings. good luck in the finals !

[xtrememachine1 795]

The Pens had some serious financial problems and almost went bankrupt. Saying that they weren't trying on purpose is ridiculous. The system worked fine. Bad teams get high picks, so they can get better. If you want to get technical, Crosby was the ONLY time they won the lottery since Mario. They traded up for Fleury and Malkin was 2nd overall.

[rwfan007 18]

how else do you want a team to get better? sign a bunch of free agents? I commend the pens for drafting well, and commend them for developing those players into proven NHL studs. There is nothing better than seeing home grown talent help a team to success. The Detroit Lions are a team that has sucked forever and gets high picks, but they don't pan out. Teams need to have good scouting, good coaching, and players that want to succeed in order to have those high picks pan out. The Pens front office has done a hell of a job drafting, trading, and signing players that help their franchise come back to the top of the heap.

[BlakChamber 8]

Pretty much every word of this post is wrong.

True dat.

[Opie 308]

Support that statement.

If the draft were random every year, surely various teams would be left out in the cold with low picks every year. Even a team like Detroit who was a bigger spender than the Pens, eventually with nothing but low picks they'd be putting a garbage team out there year after year, which equals dwindling fan interest, which equals (not saying specifically Detroit, but a lot of markets) relocations, franchises folding, etc.... Exactly what almost buried the NHL the first time around.

We suffered through Rico Fata, Kelly Bucheberger, had a year where Dick Tarnstrom was the team leader in scoring. We lost Jags, Lang, Straka, Kovy, Mario, and scores more in that time period.

Crooked politics almost cost us our team which consistantly drew more than a wide array of NHL teams in less viable markets. Where was the talk of relocating the NJ Devils or the Florida Panthers? Thanks to incredible pre and post-lockout management by the Lemieux ownership group, GM Ray Shero, and others, the Pens put themselves in a good position BEHIND THE SCENES, while scores upon scores of marginal-at-best NHL'ers played their hearts out for an inferior coach (Edzo) in an aging building with ZERO luxury amenities and where it was IMPOSSIBLE to turn a profit, even with playoff revenues.

If anything, Lemieux and the players who have come up through the Penguins system through the draft have stuck it out through the bad times and put themselves in a great position to win. We got Sidney and Malkin, but it wasn't as if the organization rolled over and died to get them. They had no choice but to not be competitive during those years.

The ironic thing is that with the salary cap in place and a new arena on the horizon, the Pens, with increased revenue streams, will wind up eventually being hindered by the cap instead of helped. It allowed them the opportunity to be a winner, and when it gets to the point where it'd be uncompetitive for the other teams, the system puts them down a peg. At that point their fates will be again decided through the draft. Some other team will be the lucky ones.

It's a testament to the system and the parity it provides throughout the league. The OP has no idea what he's talking about.

Not to be a dink here but Det has done more with 170+ picks than anyone else in the league, just look at the roster, the only players I can think of drafted by the wings above 60 were Lids and Huds, maybe mule but I am not sure on that one.

But Dats Z Homer and others were all drafted below 170, and Ericsson a very very good looking D prospect was the last pick in the draft. So to say that Det would be bad with a bunch of low picks is a stretch.

That is why the Wings have been a success over the last 15 years, granted years before that wasn't the case but I blame that on previous ownership. The Illitches have put great people, Hakan Andersson namely, in charge of the Draft and those people pick some gems in the late rounds!

[ThreeRiversFan 0]

Wow....just....Wow.......

Alot of factors went into our decline between 2001 and 2006.....

Any allegation that this team or this organization "tanked" on purpose is ludicrous...if not just plain ignorant...

Fortunately, from my short stay here so far...your narrow vision is not indicative of Red Wing fans...

Are you sure you arent from Philly?

[HeyNow71871929 0]

Hey. First time poster on an excellent forum you guys got over here. I'm a Pens fan but by no means am I here to troll. But I believe these accusations are very off based. I've been a Penguins fan for a long time and us fans endured a lot of crap o the ice for five years to the point we are at now. We have gone from the days of McKenna, Rico Fata, Dan Focht, Konstantinov Koltsov, Milan Kraft, Kelly Buchberrger to the days of present such as Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Fleury, Hossa, Malone, Sykora, etc... Just saying that the Penguins did not tank for five years to get these high quality players. It was a tough time financially and we were forced to get rid of the whole core of the team after the 2001 season. Losing players like Jagr, Kovalev, Straka, and Lang one after the other makes it real hard for a team to continue to compete. We rebuilt the whole team since then. And that rebuilding process has brought us to where we are right now and I am proud of the team for where they are right now. And with the product we have on the ice right now, forget the last 5 years, I would have been willing to endure 10 years of suffering if I knew we were going to put together a team like this in the future.

Anyways, it's gonna be a great Stanley Cup Finals. There can't be a better matchup in the Finals for the NHL. And even though the Penguins finished number 2 in the East, I believe they are a better team than the Canadiens and I think that the Stanley Cup Finals boasts the two best teams in the NHL. That hasn't happened very much in recent Stanley Cup Finals history.

Also, when I first came on this board I was very pleased to see how classy Wings fans are. I immediately thought about how opposite Wings fans are from Flyers fans. And as a Penguins fan, I really respect that. It's nice to see two fanbases have mutual respect and class towards each other.

[10 Minute Misconduct 104]

Here comes all the crying Pens fans.

[arnoldbuck 0]

The Pens are absolutley staked right now, and yes, the primarily owe that to the draft. But, those draft spots, as mentioned several times above, came from being such a brutal team for a few years.

In regards to draft solutions ... I would like to see a lottery every year that included all 30 teams. I would like it to be balanced, so that the last placed team does have a higher shot of winning than the rest.

And what woudl we prefer? Though Detroit has a had a few playoff bombs for a few years, we still have had a very entertaining product to watch. Personally I wouldn't trade the seasons we have had for a string of dead last finishes to get some high draft picks. (even if it meant getting Sid and Malkin)

[fastballspecial 0]

If the draft were random every year, surely various teams would be left out in the cold with low picks every year. Even a team like Detroit who was a bigger spender than the Pens, eventually with nothing but low picks they'd be putting a garbage team out there year after year, which equals dwindling fan interest, which equals (not saying specifically Detroit, but a lot of markets) relocations, franchises folding, etc.... Exactly what almost buried the NHL the first time around.

do Penguins fans know anything about the NHL, or do they think the Penguins are the only team in existance?

the Wings have been one of the best teams in hockey for more than 10 years now. and that is WITHOUT the benefit of #1 picks, and so on. your statement about the Wings has no merit. try again, please.

[Dr Rosenrosen 0]

The Penguins are proof that the way the draft works is really not fair, especially in the salary cap era. I say all 30 picks in the 1st round of the draft should be randomly selected, each team gets a 1/30 chance of getting the top pick. The Penguins suck for 5 years, get all those picks and now are suddenly one of the best, doesn't seem fair for all those other teams that were actually trying to win. The fact that there is a cap now means teams getting those high picks benefit even more because for the first couple of years they have those players for a relatively low salary. The fact that there is a cap now has taken away the excuse that a small market team can only build through the draft. I hate the Penguins.

...said the fan of the team who won the President's Cup. Dude, what do have to whine about other than not having an easier team to play in the finals?

[ThreeRiversFan 0]

Here comes all the crying Pens fans.

LOL...crying?

[deker 0]

Pens fans, I'm sure you understand that the preceeding OP does not reflect the opinions of the rational posters on this board. You can see many of our own calling out the ridiculousness of this post. As we don't want the Pen trolls, so too should you not have to suffer ours.

[ThreeRiversFan 0]

Pens fans, I'm sure you understand that the preceeding OP does not reflect the opinions of the rational posters on this board. You can see many of our own calling out the ridiculousness of this post. As we don't want the Pen trolls, so too should you not have to suffer ours.

LOL...its OK...they're everywhere.....

[Dr Rosenrosen 0]

Pens fans, I'm sure you understand that the preceeding OP does not reflect the opinions of the rational posters on this board. You can see many of our own calling out the ridiculousness of this post. As we don't want the Pen trolls, so too should you not have to suffer ours.

Understood. We can probably all let this thread die in a dignified manner.

[heikks86 21]

the NHL could do a draft lottery like the NBA every team that doesnt make the playoffs is in the lottery

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

The Penguins are proof that the way the draft works is really not fair, especially in the salary cap era. I say all 30 picks in the 1st round of the draft should be randomly selected, each team gets a 1/30 chance of getting the top pick. The Penguins suck for 5 years, get all those picks and now are suddenly one of the best, doesn't seem fair for all those other teams that were actually trying to win. The fact that there is a cap now means teams getting those high picks benefit even more because for the first couple of years they have those players for a relatively low salary. The fact that there is a cap now has taken away the excuse that a small market team can only build through the draft. I hate the Penguins.

EPIC FAIL!

[Pens66 0]

FAIL.

All Detroit has had for the past decade is low picks. Haven't seen a garbage team with the winged wheel in quite a while.

I'm not taking away from the fact that they have found some real diamonds in the rough. Having good hockey minds in your organization can take you a long, long way.

The problem is, the entire team isn't built through the draft.

If they were playing with nothing but some of the excellent late-round draft picks on the team, you'd be spot on.

However:

Chelios - Acquired via trade

Drake - Drafted by Detroit, re-signed later as free agent

Draper - Acquired via trade

Hasek - Signed as free agent

Kronwall - First round draft pick

Osgood - Drafted by Detroit, re-signed later as free agent

Rafalski - Signed as free agent

McCarty - Drafted by Detroit, re-signed later as free agent

Granted, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, et. al were all excellent picks made by people with a very good eye for talent. My point was that without the luxury of free agency spending, most teams will not be able to sustain a winner through the draft. If you remove the free-agent signees (regardless of whether Detroit originally drafted them, they are still FA signings), as well as Kronwall (a first-round pick), the team still has a decent core but is probably not on the run that they're on.

On the other side of this two-way street:

Scuderi - Very solid, steady stay at home D for the Pens, drafted in the 5th round.

Talbot - One of the better defensive forwards, excellent penalty killer, energy player with a knack for clutch goals, drafted in the 8th round.

Fleury - #1 pick in his draft, many people don't realize or have forgotten that the Pens traded up to get him, so was not the result of the "unfair" system of losing teams getting top picks.

Kennedy - Key role player for the Pens, having a great season as a 2-way rookie. 4th round pick.

Ryan Malone - What needs to be said about this gritty power forward? 4th round pick.

When looking at the Wings roster vs the Pens roster, you notice the Pens do have a lot of first-round picks on their current roster, vs a lot of lower-round picks on the Wings squad. However, short of Crosby and Malkin, none of their first round picks were particularly sure-bets. It still takes a good eye for talent to make a late first round pick that will be an NHL player. The NHL draft has very few sure things.

There are plenty of very solid later-round picks on the Pens roster as well. Kudos to Detroit for picking some eventual superstars late in the draft, but again, don't tell me you could do that year in and year out without a LOT of help through free agency and consistently put a winning team on the ice.