Osgood Eyeing Sawchuk

[thedisappearer 291]

What will keep Ozzie out is the simple fact he was never viewed as a dominant goalie. No Vezinas, never even mentioned for the Hart. He's viewed (rightly or wrongly) as a product of the Detroit system.

Just to play devil's advocate- Look at his numbers with NYI and StL- average. Does anyone outside of Wings fans think he'll make it? Not enough to get him in, that's for sure.

[Doc Holiday 0]

What will keep Ozzie out is the simple fact he was never viewed as a dominant goalie. No Vezinas, never even mentioned for the Hart. He's viewed (rightly or wrongly) as a product of the Detroit system.

Just to play devil's advocate- Look at his numbers with NYI and StL- average. Does anyone outside of Wings fans think he'll make it? Not enough to get him in, that's for sure.

His numbers improved going to NYI and were better his last year in St Louis than when he came back to Detroit.

[Yzermania 156]

I love ozzy and all, but I doubt he'll make it to the HOF and IF he does, it will take many years of consideration for it to actually happen, it won't be anything quick. Dom will be in probably as soon as he can be once he decides to actually retire(which seems to be official this time, atleast from the NHL).

[Icteria virens 11]

he deserves in, esp. considering Brodeur will be in.

He's played some great games last year when it counted most and overall has been very good for a very long period of time. He's not flashy and that's worked against him.

If Osgood doesn't deserve in then neither does Brodeur.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

Grant Fuhr is in the Hall of Fame. Yet he never posted a GAA below 2.70 the same season he posted a save percentage above 90%, and only twice did he EVER post a save percentage above 90%. In Fuhr's best season in terms of save %, Osgood nearly won the Vezina.

Grant Fuhr never posted a better save %, GAA, or win % than Osgood did in the time they were in the league together. Never. Only once did Osgood during his entire career post a GAA above 2.90, while Fuhr did it three times during Osgood's career. Fuhr posted sub-.900 sv% five times during Osgood's career, yet Osgood has only done that three times.

You don't think if Osgood ends his career with about 450 wins that he'll be in the Hall of Fame? You don't think that ending his career with what would have been the All-Time Wins Record when he started is enough to get him inducted? That's before considering the fact he has won Jennings awards, been on the postseason All-Star team, and won Cups.

You can not like Osgood if you choose; but he has had an amazing career and will be a HOFer.

...also to add to what the prior guy said about Osgood being a product of great defenses that played in front of him. Two words for you, Marty Brodeur. How much was HE a product of often the #1 defense in the NHL throughout the 90's and early 2000's? If he played for St. Louis, does he even come close to getting the #1 spot all time? If Osgood is only good because of the Wings, maybe Brodeur is only good beause of the Devils, and Roy because of the Avs...

...Ozzie deserves the Hall with the career he has had up till now. Finishing his contract and becoming #5 ALL TIME, doesn't just make it a lock, it breaks the key off in that lock! His number will be raised as well.... #5 and #30 to the rafters... (91 too, but that's a WHOLE-nother subect )

[wingfanatic4alltime 32]

My buddy and me get into fights about this very topic all the time. Im of the belief that if ozzie breaks sawchucks record and wins another cup he deserves to be in the hall of fame heres why, yea Ozzie never won a vezina but look who some of the goalies in the league were at that time Marty, Dom at his peak, Patty Roy, and even now you have Luongo, Lunquivst, and Miller. What im getting at is that unfortunly there are people who vote for these awards that have a bias towards Ozzie simply because of the team he plays for and the defense in front of him. If Ozzie breaks Sawchucks record and wins another cup IMO it will be a crime if he isnt in the HOF.

[HomeNugget 2]

His numbers improved going to NYI and were better his last year in St Louis than when he came back to Detroit.

Exactly. If Osgood only has good numbers because he played for the Wings then his numbers would have dropped off when he played for the Islanders and Blues. The whole "Osgood owes his great numbers to the Red Wings" argument is completely without merit. If Osgood played his entire career with Toronto and had the same stats and achievements he'd be a lock for the Hall of Fame.

[Nev 1,085]

If Osgood played his entire career with Toronto and had the same stats and achievements he'd be a lock for the Hall of Fame

I guess the truth of that will be if CuJo gets in.

Objectively, despite what will end up as incredible numbers, he was/is, at best, only the 5th best goalie of his era. Brodeur, Hasek, Roy and Belfour will all be ranked above him by most folks.

But yeah, it does confuse me that people throw the "Ozzie has great stats because of the team in front of him", but no-one ever says that about Belfour or Broduer, both of whom played behind incredible defensive teams.

[eva unit zero 271]

What will keep Ozzie out is the simple fact he was never viewed as a dominant goalie. No Vezinas, never even mentioned for the Hart. He's viewed (rightly or wrongly) as a product of the Detroit system.

Just to play devil's advocate- Look at his numbers with NYI and StL- average. Does anyone outside of Wings fans think he'll make it? Not enough to get him in, that's for sure.

Osgood's numbers in NYI and StL were average...for Osgood. His Detroit career stats and his numbers outside of Detroit are very similar. He played behind TERRIBLE teams and carried them to the playoffs; he was the most valuable player on his team each year in 01-02 through 03-04. Osgood has HOF numbers he keeps improving upon.

[thedisappearer 291]

Ozzie never won a vezina but look who some of the goalies in the league were at that time Marty, Dom at his peak, Patty Roy, and even now you have Luongo, Lunquivst, and Miller.

So you are saying the fourth best goalie (at best) of the two generations he played in is HOF material?

[ComradeWasabi 109]

So you are saying the fourth best goalie (at best) of the two generations he played in is HOF material?

Think about the number of goalies beyond #4 overall for a generation like that, I would say that if he is a legitimate #4 selection for either one of those generations he should be HOF material. That's a big "if", though.

[soultrain 43]

he was never a top goalie... in a hockey era that has had the best goaltending in the history of the game. making it to the hall, i hope that works for him. put his name up in the rafters....i hope they do. he deserves it for all the abuse that we have dished out on the guy for sooooo many years and after how many cups? ozzy is the man, on the bench or on the ice. love the guy always...even when he gives up 5 goals...i will blame that on the d-men.

[eva unit zero 271]

So you are saying the fourth best goalie (at best) of the two generations he played in is HOF material?

Luongo, Lundqvist, and Miller have nothing on Osgood. None of them have won ANYTHING. Not one ******* thing. Osgood was a Vezina runner-up, Jennings-winner, Smythe runner-up, and Cup winner in his first five years. Osgood was a Second-Team All-Star once. Luongo, Lundqvist, and Miller have two selections between the three of them...and both are Luongo's.

Ultimately, Luongo is the only goaltender of the three who has an argument that he has a better career than Osgood so far (Osgood was a Cup winner, an All-Star, and a Vezina contender at the age Luongo is now) and Osgood has a few more years to add to his legacy while Luongo doesn't look like he'll necessarily be winning much of anything up in Vancouver.

What exactly is required for Hall entry? Individual greatness in itself? Individual greatness and winning the Cup, even if it doesn't happen together? Individual greatness that contributes to winning the Cup? Or just winning the Cup?

Does a player who is a great individual contributor but does less to help his team win games deserve to make the HHOF over another player who is great at coming through when his team needs him to and has good numbers but because he's played on strong teams he hasn't always had to be "the guy" that came through for the team even if he has a HOF career in terms of numbers and Cup wins.

How about this one: Does Glenn Anderson deserve to be in the HHOF? He was at best the fourth best forward on the Oilers during the dynasty years, at BEST. Gretzky, Messier, and Kurri were the top three easily. Tikkanen, Krushelnyski, MacTavish, Dave Hunter, Craig Simpson, Geoff Courtnall all were about the same level or better during the time they played together in Edmonton. Other guys could be mentioned as well. Anderson was never named to the postseason All-Star team. Osgood was. So Anderson got in on the strength of ok numbers and having been a support player for a few Cup wins.

Osgood has excellent numbers, and twice was second in Smythe voting in a Cup win as starting goaltender. He's got more than enough to get it if Luongo is your measuring stick, and IMHO deserves it more than Anderson, who was just inducted.

[Icteria virens 11]

Osgood's numbers in NYI and StL were average...for Osgood. His Detroit career stats and his numbers outside of Detroit are very similar. He played behind TERRIBLE teams and carried them to the playoffs; he was the most valuable player on his team each year in 01-02 through 03-04. Osgood has HOF numbers he keeps improving upon.

exactly, you could argue that sometimes on Detroit teams he hasn't always had to be spectacular (although he's been when needed, last years PO's for example) but when needed and when playing on inferior teams (Islanders, Blues) his play has risen to meet the challenge.

He deserves the HOF now.

[WingNut 25 5]

I hope to see Ozzie pass Sawchuk's record but I think he's already done enough to be Hall worthy.

[AtomicPunk 296]

Would I like to see him get in? Yes.

Does he deserve to get in? Yes.

WILL he get in? No.

Not unless they expand the number of people they induct each year.

[Tr!PoD#19 524]

Luongo, Lundqvist, and Miller have nothing on Osgood. None of them have won ANYTHING. Not one ******* thing. Osgood was a Vezina runner-up, Jennings-winner, Smythe runner-up, and Cup winner in his first five years. Osgood was a Second-Team All-Star once. Luongo, Lundqvist, and Miller have two selections between the three of them...and both are Luongo's.

Ultimately, Luongo is the only goaltender of the three who has an argument that he has a better career than Osgood so far (Osgood was a Cup winner, an All-Star, and a Vezina contender at the age Luongo is now) and Osgood has a few more years to add to his legacy while Luongo doesn't look like he'll necessarily be winning much of anything up in Vancouver.

What exactly is required for Hall entry? Individual greatness in itself? Individual greatness and winning the Cup, even if it doesn't happen together? Individual greatness that contributes to winning the Cup? Or just winning the Cup?

Does a player who is a great individual contributor but does less to help his team win games deserve to make the HHOF over another player who is great at coming through when his team needs him to and has good numbers but because he's played on strong teams he hasn't always had to be "the guy" that came through for the team even if he has a HOF career in terms of numbers and Cup wins.

How about this one: Does Glenn Anderson deserve to be in the HHOF? He was at best the fourth best forward on the Oilers during the dynasty years, at BEST. Gretzky, Messier, and Kurri were the top three easily. Tikkanen, Krushelnyski, MacTavish, Dave Hunter, Craig Simpson, Geoff Courtnall all were about the same level or better during the time they played together in Edmonton. Other guys could be mentioned as well. Anderson was never named to the postseason All-Star team. Osgood was. So Anderson got in on the strength of ok numbers and having been a support player for a few Cup wins.

Osgood has excellent numbers, and twice was second in Smythe voting in a Cup win as starting goaltender. He's got more than enough to get it if Luongo is your measuring stick, and IMHO deserves it more than Anderson, who was just inducted.

Amen.

Nothing else needs to be said.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Osgood never gets the credit he's due. All he get's is "with that defense in front of him, who wouldn't look good".

Yeah, it's always laughable when people try to pin Osgood's success on good defense. Turn their logic around and the premise seems to be "to be considered a great goaltender you have to play behind a miserable defense." Well it's a team game and you won't win much behind a bad defense. Now that's quite the paradox, isn't it? "To be great you have to not win."

It would be interesting to see a list of goalies that did win the Stanley Cup but aren't in the HHOF and make a comparison to see where Ozzie stands on this. But the main point is that I've see Oz play, and I've seen the play of his contemporaries and that's all I really need to make sound judgment.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Yeah, it's always laughable when people try to pin Osgood's success on good defense. Turn their logic around and the premise seems to be "to be considered a great goaltender you have to play behind a miserable defense." Well it's a team game and you won't win much behind a bad defense. Now that's quite the paradox, isn't it? "To be great you have to not win."

It would be interesting to see a list of goalies that did win the Stanley Cup but aren't in the HHOF and make a comparison to see where Ozzie stands on this. But the main point is that I've see Oz play, and I've seen the play of his contemporaries and that's all I really need to make sound judgment.

Brodeur I think is one of the greatest goaltenders in history, and the Devils have some of the most well known defense of this era. I try to avoid numbers (except maybe save %) and statistics, because there are so many of them that they can be molded se easily to fit your argument regardless of whether they're even relevant (see: Eva). If you compare Broduer's skill with Osgood's hands down Broduer wins. Same with Lundqvist, Miller, Luongo and a handful of other goalies in the league. They have more solid skill than Osgood has. These guys don't have the cups that Osgood won, or the strong numbers in the win column. But teams win cups, and its significantly easier to win when you face 18-24 shots a night with 16 of them from the outside. Now I'm not saying Osgood is a bad goalie. In fact I think he's quite solid in net. He does what's required of him. But that's it. I can only think of a couple "game-savers" or complete robberies in his entire career where he absolutely did the unthinkable, and its stuff like that that separates the elite goalies from Osgood. Broduer has faced many easy shots in his career, and many easy nights as well, but he often still manages to make the save even on the more difficult opportunities. Osgood will get a couple here or there. He does have awesome numbers, but they're mostly team based, with little overall impact on the league as a whole, and that's why I don' t think he'll be inducted. Maybe I'm wrong. Hopefully I'm wrong. But Osgood has never stood out of the pack for me, despite his numbers, and I'm assuming the HOF committee is of the same mindset.

[Datsyerberger 279]

I would ask you to compare two goalies of the same era who have played on the two biggest defensive powerhouses of the last 15 seasons:

Osgood: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/players/stats?playerId=700

Brodeur: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/players/stats?playerId=108

You'll notice that, besides a stint with godawful NYI and STL teams that Brodeur didn't have to go through, they have relatively similar SV%s and GAA. Furthermore, Osgood has faced, on average, more shots per minute than Brodeur. Brodeur gets a slight edge on Osgood in all categories, while playing, on average, on a more defensive team. Stats aren't everything; analysis of play would show many highlight saves and the occasional real stinker from both. They're both known for having excellent gloves. Osgood has regularly split time with HOF goaltenders (Vernon, Hasek). Brodeur's higher GP may be due to this, or, for the benefit of the doubt, endurance. Overall, I hold the opinion that Brodeur that is the better goaltender.. but not by very damned much.

In fact, I put Osgood as the 4th best goaltender of his era, taking both numbers and career into account (Say roughly 1990-present). Maybe 4th best shouldn't get consideration, until you examine who the 3 above him are.

Hasek

Roy

Brodeur

3 top 10 goaltenders of all time, of who 2 are regularly argued as #1. Playing in the same era as Hasek and Roy will deplete your trophy case a bit.

Now let's look at wins. Partially a team stat, but even the best teams don't get wins if their goaltender stinks it up:

377 W, 197 L. 13th all time now?

Arguably, he's on pace for as high as #5 by the end of his career, and is pretty much guaranteed top 10.

3 Stanley Cups, 2 as a starter. Oh, speaking of cups, take a look at his playoff perfomance numbers. You'll notice he's really ******* clutch, behind only a handful of players who have had a full career in SV% and GAA .. most of whom have multiple Stanleys, like Mr. Osgood. The years in which his team won a cup, he was on fire.

When you take career, numbers, and cups into account, Osgood projects to be a top 20 goaltender of all time.. maybe even top 15. The only thing he lacks is an expansive trophy case, which is understandable considering the competing talent. Besides, he has 3 of the trophy that matters most.

Compared to a lot of players that are currently in the Hall, not inducting Osgood would be no less than a ******* travesty, profanity quite necessary.

Edit: One more thing I feel worth mentioning. Among the top goaltenders of all time, perhaps none are known as being as much of a team player as Osgood. Certainly not Roy or Hasek -- though I'd like to think Ozzie rubbed off a bit on Hasek in the end.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Datsyerberger

[egroen 384]

It will be interesting to see if Osgood is the Ron Francis of goaltenders... or the Dino Ciccareli.

Like Osgood, both put up good numbers each and every year for a long period of time, benefited from some great teams, but without ever beng considered "the best" at any given time. Francis was inducted into the HHoF right away and Ciccareli is still sitting on the sidelines.

With the Cups and Jennings trophies, I think Osgood will end up more on the Francis side of the equation. There is something to be said for lengevity and the ability to play very well for a long time. Few goaltenders, especially, are able to do that.

[Datsyerberger 279]

It will be interesting to see if Osgood is the Ron Francis of goaltenders... or the Dino Ciccareli.

Like Osgood, both put up good numbers each and every year for a long period of time, benefited from some great teams, but without ever beng considered "the best" at any given time. Francis was inducted into the HHoF right away and Ciccareli is still sitting on the sidelines.

With the Cups and Jennings trophies, I think Osgood will end up more on the Francis side of the equation. There is something to be said for lengevity and the ability to play very well for a long time. Few goaltenders, especially, are able to do that.

I wish I could make posts with valid points that short.

[steveyzerman 0]

I wrote this at the end of last season:

In my mind, absolutely. Every chance Chris Osgood has had, he's taken advantage of it. Three Stanley Cups. Two Jennings. Threehundredandsixtythree wins (15th in NHL history). Four All-Star appearances. One goal.

In the 1996-97 season, Chris Osgood played 47 games. That's more than half of the 82 game season. Of course, Vernon was the starter throughout the post-season, but Osgood won the games to get them there.

In the 1997-98 season, he played 64 games. Obviously, that's enough to say he got them there. Then he was the starter in the post-season & went 16-6 in the playoffs to win the Stanley Cup for the second time in two years.

Now, in 2008, after taking over for a guaranteed Hall of Famer, Dominik Hasek. Chris Osgood has won his third Stanley Cup with a 16-4 record. In that span, he also won 9 consecutive games.

I'm aware the NHL is rough on goalies getting into the Hall of Fame & I don't mind that. It's more prestigious that way. But to say Osgood shouldn't get in after everything he's accomplished, that's ridiculous.

1) Osgood never had to stand on his head/Osgood never stole a game

This must come from people who didn't watch him stop the Gary Roberts spin-o-rama from point blank (granted, it was Gary Roberts).What about all the OFFENSIVEFIREPOWER from the Pittsburgh Penguins. Or maybe it's because 99% of the time, he was in perfect position & made everything look easy to all the critics.

2) Brodeur, Hasek, Roy are better than him

Obviously, Osgood is not as good as these guys who will be getting/ are in the Hockey Hall of Fame. But are you telling me Ron Francis is as good as Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux? I know it seems to be different for goalies, but why? I'm not saying Osgood would be the best goalie in the Hall of Fame. Hell, maybe he'd be one of the worst to some, but he still deserves his place there.

3) He's the product of a great team

I'll use the previous three goalies for this. You know, the guaranteed Hall of Fame goalies. Apparently, no one remembers how good the New Jersey devils were with Scott Stevens. News flash, the New Jersey Devils haven't been back since their team fell apart. Obviously, Brodeur, as good as he is, can't steal a whole season. Roy played on a great team when all of the players were in their prime. The Red Wings have lost everything that people said were keeping us at the top. Yet, here's Osgood, backstopping us to a fourth Stanley Cup in eleven years.

So, punish Osgood for playing on a team with Nicklas Lidstrom. Punish him for always being in the right place at the right time. Punish him for making things look easy. In my mind, he's a Hall of Famer already & he's still playing hockey.

Edited January 12, 2009 by steveyzerman

[Echolalia 2,961]

**shortened to lessen on the scrolling**

Good post and for the most part I agree, however there are some differences between Broduer and Osgood which will go against Osgood's favor. In addition to the three cups his team has won, Broduer has won the Vezina and the Jennings four times, and he's looking at breaking the all-time wins and all-time shutout record. Osgood's records are mostly franchise records, and those that he still has to get (although I think its safe to assume he'll retire with them). Broduer already owns just about every franchise record a goalie can get for the Devils, I think something along the lines of 30 records? Not to mention the ridiculous amount of unbelievable saves he has made to preserve his numbers. This guy has tons of highlight reel videos on youtube, compared to very few with Osgood. This also may seem like a redundant comparison, however it demonstrates a valid point that Brodeur is the more noticed goalie in the league, while Osgood flies under the radar with standard, not flashy but good-positioning saves. This may very well affect how people vote on his chances in the HOF. People also don't consider him a franchise player due to the fact that the Wings have had the likes of Hasek and Vernon and Joseph come through, and Osgood has played second tier through those times. Anyway, like I said earlier, it would be awesome if he gets in, but I think he's looking at an outside chance, if any.

[Datsyerberger 279]

*snip*

Nobody notices Osgood -- which is why the "Oooosssssgoooood" chant is possibly the most widespread chant in the league.

To be honest, I don't care what sort of a tear the team is on, anyone that doesn't notice a goalie after 1.55 GAA, .930 SV% in the playoffs and 2 shutouts in the opening of the SCF for not his 1st but his 2nd cup as a starter is.. well, allow me to demonstrate with a graphic.

-------------------------------------

Homer | Unbiased | Anti-Homer

They're all the way to the right, with both of the ends being negative and the middle being positive.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Datsyerberger