Osgood has worst save percentage in the league

[Ms_Hockey 0]

I've got faith in him and I bet the team does too.

That's pretty much the bottom line of this whole confidence debate.

[puckloo39 5,686]

I can't believe anyone here expects fairness and a civil conversation about the goalies. It has never happened before, and I doubt it will begin now.

They're doing the best they can. So is the team. They all need to do better, if they have any intention of shutting us up.

[therock48880 14]

How many soft goals did he allow against Minnesota? In the 6-1 Win against Dallas? In the 4-3 Win against Anaheim.

Hyperbole. Nothing more.

Doesn't take much time, and even less energy, to realize that Osgood's stats tumbled during that 11 game slide the Wings went on last February, when they were riddled with injuries from top to bottom.

One game in particular which hurt Osgood's stats a ton was the game against Nashville, when he was pulled after allowing 2 goals on 4 shots, in about 9 minutes worth of play.

His stats for that game alone were ~20.00 GAA and .250 SVP.

Once again, the entire Team was slumping, and they were missing 2 of their top 4 Defenseman.

To complain because his stats dipped from absolutely spectacular to merely damned good, and to call that an "alarming trend" is, in my opinion, simply more hyperbole.

First of all, notice I said, "It seems" when I said he lets in a soft goal per game, which indicates that I realize that isn't true every single game. However, there are games in which he lets in more than one soft one.

Secondly, a .900 save percentage for a goalie is not "damned good". In fact, it's below average. His save percentage in the last 12 months of regular season play is under .900. If you don't find that alarming, I'm happy for you. However, I'm assuming that most people wouldn't want a goalie with a sub .900 save percentage going into the playoffs.

Thirdly, a game in which he allows 2 goals on 4 shots has a VERY MINIMAL impact on seasonal save percentage since it was only four shots faced.

I DO like the word "hyperbole" though. You used it twice and used it correctly both times. (I'm an english teacher)

I noticed that everyone is quick to blame the dmen when the save percentage is bad, does that mean Ozzie should get no credit for what he did at the beginning of last year? After all, it was great defensive play in front of him right? (that was sarcasm and I don't believe either case to be true) But how can he be blameless when the save percentage drops and get all the credit when his save percentage is stellar? The truth is in the middle somewhere. He excelled last year because he was playing well and so were the dmen. This year he's struggling because he's not playing as well and neither are the dmen. He CAN'T be blameless in this mess.

[therock48880 14]

That's pretty much the bottom line of this whole confidence debate.

Remember the Hasek vs. Cujo year? That had to set a record for the most goalie threads and the most people suspended from the site for inappropriate comments.

Ahhh, the good ole days!

[Outsider 42]

I noticed that everyone is quick to blame the dmen when the save percentage is bad, does that mean Ozzie should get no credit for what he did at the beginning of last year? After all, it was great defensive play in front of him right? (that was sarcasm and I don't believe either case to be true) But how can he be blameless when the save percentage drops and get all the credit when his save percentage is stellar? The truth is in the middle somewhere. He excelled last year because he was playing well and so were the dmen. This year he's struggling because he's not playing as well and neither are the dmen. He CAN'T be blameless in this mess.

I, for one, never gave Osgood sole credit for his stats, nor his record, last Season. Nor did I ever stated that he was blameless for his stats this Season. He needs to play better. No doubt about it.

All I've been stating is that goaltending is not the worst of this Teams problems right now.

As someone posted earlier, "The players would know."

Yes, they surely would. And none better than Nick Lidstrom, who claims the problem with the Wings right now is the Defense.

Defense at root of Red Wings losing streak

[Wingsallwin 0]

Waaaaait a minute.....

Didn't you just say, earlier in a different thread, that Conklin was "good enough" against the Caps, but that the Team was terrible?

And did you not, on page 3 of this VERY thread, make the comment:

So which is it?

4 or 5 goals, (as Conklin gave up to the Caps and the 'Yotes, respectively), is "brutal", or it's "good enough"?

As you posted above:

Which. Is. It?

Make up your mind. Because you keep contradicting yourself, which is what I've been contending all along.

Or is it, simply.....

When it's Osgood, it's "brutal". But when it's Conklin, it's "good enough".

Go back and read your very own words, because that is precisely what you've just said.

I am talking about the number of times. Even top goalies in the league sometimes allow 4 or 5 goals. Like Conklin, he let 4 or 5goals few times but thats it. Osgood's games are like allowing 4 or 5 goals too many times already.

You need to go to NHL.COM and check the number of times of both our goalies about allowing more than 4 or 5 goals and that will make you understand.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Wingsallwin

[therock48880 14]

Did you conviently leave out Ozzie's .930 save percentage and 1.55 GAA in the playoffs last season? Ozzie was one of the main reasons the Red Wings even have the chance to repeat. It's easy to pick-and-choose your stats to skew Ozzie's success. Conklin let in two pretty soft goals yesterday or are they only "soft goals" when Ozzie lets them in?

The common denominator is the Red Wings defensive effort on most nights is lacking badly. We need Ozzie and the defense to improve before the playoffs. Ozzie can't improve by sitting on the bench. Nothing against Conklin, but the Red Wings are better off with Ozzie in goal when the games matter the most. I don't see any reason to dismiss Ozzie so quickly when there is plenty of blame to go around for the Red Wings "slump" at the moment.

I didn't conveniently leave anything out. My post said I was talking about regular season stats.

Yes, he played very well in the playoffs, but according to the philosophy that his play this year is a result of poor play by the dmen, some could argue that his success last year was due to great play by dmen. Their defensive effort was great last year in the playoffs, which made his job easy. (before people read half the post and freak out, I said that to make a point and don't believe it's true) See how flawed the logic of blaming his play on the dmen is? The simple fact is, he played well last year and so did the dmen, this year he's not playing as well and neither are the dmen. It can't all be placed on the dmen and it can't all be placed on Ozzie. However, he is not playing well as he did last year.

[therock48880 14]

I, for one, never gave Osgood sole credit for his stats, nor his record, last Season. Nor did I ever stated that he was blameless for his stats this Season. He needs to play better. No doubt about it.

All I've been stating is that goaltending is not the worst of this Teams problems right now.

As someone posted earlier, "The players would know."

Yes, they surely would. And none better than Nick Lidstrom, who claims the problem with the Wings right now is the Defense.

Defense at root of Red Wings losing streak

And a goalie is the last line of defense.

There's no arguing that they need to crank up the effort defensively. No one is doubting that. It just bugs me when people are thinking that everything's great with Ozzie and places the blame solely on the dmen. It's a combination, imo. Both are playing like crap.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

There has been a lot of talk about defence this year. Sure, there is room for improvement in our defence. But the statistics show that we have out-shot our opponents in 29 of 49 games this year. That is the best record in the league (SJS is second with 24). We have the fifth best defence in terms of shots against per game. So overall, even though our defence hasn't been as good as last year, it has still been one of the best in the league.

One stat sticks out one the negative side though: Osgood's save percentage of 88.0%. Out of all 44 goalies that have played this year, Osgood has the lowest save percentage. That's right - Osgood is in last place.

To me, save percentage is the only really relevant statistic for goalies. After all, stopping shots is what they are there for. How can Detroit expect to win the cup with the worst goalie in the league? Why are people focusing on the defence when goal-tending seems to be the obvious flaw in our roster? Our number one goalie is worse than the back-up on all other all other teams!

In my mind, we need to:

1) Short-term: Dump Osgood. Make Conklin number one, and bring up Larsson as the back-up (Larsson has a much better save percentage than Howard). To those who say Larsson isn't ready I contend that we already have the worst goalie in the league - Larsson only has to be better than one goalie to be an improvement on Osgood.

2) Long-term: Make room in the cap to acquire a goalie before the next trade dead-line. Any goalie. Remember - all other goalies in the league have performed better than Osgood.

Am I making sense?

(All stats are from nhl.com)

Osgood is not going anywhere. No, he hasn't played particularly well but he is more than capable of stepping his game up.

Conklin and Osgood is where it is at right now for better or worse.

These things eventually sort themselves out as we experienced with Osgood and Hasek last year. It didn't happen until around playoff time last year, and it is going to be later than sooner though in all likelihood this year around whenever Babcock goes with a firm #1 starter.

This team is making the playoffs, so there is no need to excessively worry about the goaltending until the playoffs.

The goalies aren't playing great right now, but when your team is on a 5-game losing streak, you can probably say the same about the majority of the team.

And this team is good enough to snap out of the funk sooner than later. And fortunately, this team is still going to make the playoffs without much difficulty despite this snag. We are fortunately that they are that good enough to not have to have too many fits about the regular season.

The goaltending will sort itself out in time, it's not going to be after tomorrow or next week though.

[Outsider 42]

You need to go to NHL.COM and check the number of times of both our goalies about allowing more than 4 or 5 goals and that will make you understand.

I understand completely.

And I don't need to look at stats to do so. I actually watch the games, and the careers, of these players.

But hey! I'm game.....

According to NHL.com, Osgood has allowed 4 or 5 goals in 8 Games out of 25.

According to NHL.com, Conklin has allowed 4 or 5 goals in 7 Games out of 24.

These ARE the stats you've asked me to "check", are they not? If so.....well, then.....

You're right. Now I understand. It's much clearer now, thank you.

Regardless....

If you want to write off a Cup Winning goaltender after what you term to be 20 some odd "bad" games, (some 7 months after Winning the Cup, no less), while coming off a groin injury, and feel that it would be prudent to replace him with a career back up who's never been able to hold onto an NHL job, but has thus far outplayed the Cup Winning goaltender for an equal 20 some odd games, and has a total of six minutes of Play Off experience, then you go right ahead and be my guest.

That's what Babcock did in 2005, with a BETTER back up goaltender in Manny Legace, and with a Red Wings Team which was playing STELLAR Defensive hockey in front of said better back up.

That turned out well, as I recall.

That was the last time I, or anyone else, saw Stevie skate off the ice in a Red Wings uniform. And that SUCKED, and should never have been.

You can base your opinion on the past 50 Games this Season.

I will base my opinion on the past 16 years of one career, and the past 5 of the other.

I like my odds in backing the goaltender with the 16 year history as a Winner over the guy has a comparable number of Regular Season Victories as the other has Play Off Victories.

[CrabCZ 0]

Conklin .915 (680 SA, 58 GA)

Osgood .880 (693 SA, 83 GA)

The same defense.

And it includes Conklin's 9 goals in 2 games. Osgood averages 26,6 shots a game, that means 10 SO in a row to match Conklin's SV%.

For all you "stats doesn't say anything" people: Why are all the goalies that actually do something in the net on the top and all the goalies that are considered to suck on the bottom? Yet somehow Osgood is a different case than the rest of the NHL and his stats don't prove anything.

Toskala, Hedberg, Legace, Turco, LaBarbera, Budaj, Sabourin, Theodore, Ellis, MacDonald, Ersberg, Giguere, Halak, Lehtonen are all accompanying Osgood at the 30th and worse place. Why don't I see there any actually good goalie when the SV% stat is totally inacurate?

"Quality chances" is the usual excuse for incompetence. Detroit defense must be at the level of the hungarian national team defense to accomplish .880 on a "superstar" goalie. Sure, no other team in the league let so many quality chances be held in front of their goalie...

You can lie to yourself as much as you want, but it's just YOU who is delusional about Osgood.

I'm not saying he can't be the old good Osgood in play-offs, but right now he is just pathetic and I don't believe in miracles.

[Wingsallwin 0]

I understand completely.

And I don't need to look at stats to do so. I actually watch the games, and the careers, of these players.

But hey! I'm game.....

According to NHL.com, Osgood has allowed 4 or 5 goals in 8 Games out of 25.

According to NHL.com, Conklin has allowed 4 or 5 goals in 7 Games out of 24.

These ARE the stats you've asked me to "check", are they not? If so.....well, then.....

You're right. Now I understand. It's much clearer now, thank you.

Regardless....

If you want to write off a Cup Winning goaltender after what you term to be 20 some odd "bad" games, (some 7 months after Winning the Cup, no less), while coming off a groin injury, and feel that it would be prudent to replace him with a career back up who's never been able to hold onto an NHL job, but has thus far outplayed the Cup Winning goaltender for an equal 20 some odd games, and has a total of six minutes of Play Off experience, then you go right ahead and be my guest.

That's what Babcock did in 2005, with a BETTER back up goaltender in Manny Legace, and with a Red Wings Team which was playing STELLAR Defensive hockey in front of said better back up.

That turned out well, as I recall.

That was the last time I, or anyone else, saw Stevie skate off the ice in a Red Wings uniform. And that SUCKED, and should never have been.

You can base your opinion on the past 50 Games this Season.

I will base my opinion on the past 16 years of one career, and the past 5 of the other.

I like my odds in backing the goaltender with the 16 year history as a Winner over the guy has a comparable number of Regular Season Victories as the other has Play Off Victories.

I also watched Osgood's playing career, not like you watching 16 years, but I have for 6years. But it does not matter we have a lot of star players on our defensive zones because they are not playing like the level they are supposed to be.

Not only checking the number of game, but go to the site again and check the SV percentage and GAA. Stats does not lie for goalie and we cannot put goalie like now Osgood in the playoff unless the goalie turns into a miraculous goalie.

And stop blaming defenses because we know our defenses are not like last season but if you compare Conklin and Osgood, they barely face pretty much similar amount of shots on them but Conklin pulled out some shutouts already which Osgood even have made none so far. Did both goalies play with different defenses? No, they played with same defenses.

I am not saying about you but some people here just blame defenses when Osgood allows even weak goals. There is no doubt Conklin is better than Osgood this season and this pattern has been in this team since the first game of the season. Nothing changed. We need to give more chances on Conks to start the game in Feb.

[Outsider 42]

Conklin .915 (680 SA, 58 GA)

Osgood .880 (693 SA, 83 GA)

The same defense.

And it includes Conklin's 9 goals in 2 games. Osgood averages 26,6 shots a game, that means 10 SO in a row to match Conklin's SV%.

For all you "stats doesn't say anything" people: Why are all the goalies that actually do something in the net on the top and all the goalies that are considered to suck on the bottom? Yet somehow Osgood is a different case than the rest of the NHL and his stats don't prove anything.

Toskala, Hedberg, Legace, Turco, LaBarbera, Budaj, Sabourin, Theodore, Ellis, MacDonald, Ersberg, Giguere, Halak, Lehtonen are all accompanying Osgood at the 30th and worse place. Why don't I see there any actually good goalie when the SV% stat is totally inacurate?

"Quality chances" is the usual excuse for incompetence. Detroit defense must be at the level of the hungarian national team defense to accomplish .880 on a "superstar" goalie. Sure, no other team in the league let so many quality chances be held in front of their goalie...

You can lie to yourself as much as you want, but it's just YOU who is delusional about Osgood.

I'm not saying he can't be the old good Osgood in play-offs, but right now he is just pathetic and I don't believe in miracles.

You're peeing against the wind here.

There's not one single person here who has stated that Osgood has been even close to "good" this Season. Not one.

What myself, and like-minded individuals, are arguing is the fact that Osgood is not solely to blame for this Teams woes.

The Original Poster of this thread posits that all the Wings need to do in order improve their lot would be to replace Osgood with another goaltender....ANY goaltender, apparently.

That is not the case. While Osgood has not played well this Season, he is far from the only, hell...even the MAIN....problem here.

Again....

Osgood has not played well this Season. He knows it. The Team knows it. We know it.

But you don't have to "believe in miracles" to believe that Oz will turn it around.

All you have to do is look at History.

If you, like some others, want to base your opinion on a "history" comprised of TWENTY SIX GAMES, again.....be my guest.

I'll take the 16 year history, myself.

[Outsider 42]

Then again.....

You can always believe that the "numbers don't lie", and get firmly behind the notion that Ty Conklin is a much better goaltender, (in both SVP and GAA) than, J.S. Giguere, Roberto Luongo, Marty Turdco, Henrik Lundqvist, M.A. Fleury, Evgeni Nabakov and Miika Kiprusoff, to name a few.

Jump right on that bandwagon, my friends. I'm sure TSN will be updating their player rankings shortly...

Edited February 2, 2009 by Outsider

[Wingsallwin 0]

Then again.....

You can always believe that the "numbers don't lie", and get firmly behind the notion that Ty Conklin is a much better goaltender, (in both SVP and GAA) than, J.S. Giguere, Roberto Luongo, Marty Turdco, Henrik Lundqvist, M.A. Fleury, Evgeni Nabakov and Miika Kiprusoff, to name a few.

Jump right on that bandwagon, my friends. I'm sure TSN will be updating their player rankings shortly...

I don't know why you said this but we are not bandwagons. Most of us, I am pretty sure they have been the Wings fans for long time, most guys are probably longer than me because I could not feed to watch hockey in my country before I came to Canada, only by sometimes in the Internet and satellite broadcasting.

We all know we have differnet views but if you say we are bandwagons because we now blame on particular players by bad performances, thats wrong because every season, some players on teams are blamed.

Just because Osgood is loyal and has been in this team for long time, it does not been Osgood should not be blamed. All people can blame players when they are playing bad and it is just a different thought by different people and when they are playing bad but players should not be bitched. That's a bandwagon.

[Outsider 42]

I am not saying about you but some people here just blame defenses when Osgood allows even weak goals. There is no doubt Conklin is better than Osgood this season and this pattern has been in this team since the first game of the season. Nothing changed. We need to give more chances on Conks to start the game in Feb.

Wrong again.....

Through the month of December, when Osgood apparently first suffered the groin injury, he and Conklin were posting very similar stats.

Or had you forgotten that?

It wasn't until Osgood sat out for 7 straight games, and Conklin got SEVEN STRAIGHT STARTS, that Conks got in a groove and improved his stats.

Again....

They need to get Osgood on a roll, as he, not Conklin, gives the Wings their best chance in the Post Season.

[Outsider 42]

I don't know why you said this but we are not bandwagons. Most of us, I am pretty sure they have been the Wings fans for long time, most guys are probably longer than me because I could not feed to watch hockey in my country before I came to Canada, only by sometimes in the Internet and satellite broadcasting.

We all know we have differnet views but if you say we are bandwagons because we now blame on particular players by bad performances, thats wrong because every season, some players on teams are blamed.

Just because Osgood is loyal and has been in this team for long time, it does not been Osgood should not be blamed. All people can blame players when they are playing bad and it is just a different thought by different people and when they are playing bad but players should not be bitched. That's a bandwagon.

As I attempt to untangle that post.....

Once again, the language barrier seems to have come into effect.

It did not accuse anyone of being a Bandwagon fan as far as the Wings are concerned.

I stated that anyone who wants to jump on the 'bandwagon' stating that "the numbers don't lie", is more than welcome.

That would mean that anyone who truly believes that "the numbers don't lie", also truly believes that Ty Conklin is a better goaltender than Roberto Luongo, JS Giguere, Ryan Miller, Henrik Lundqvist, Marty Turdco, Evgeni Nabokov, et al.

Tell me.....

If the Play Offs started tomorrow, and the Wings had the option.....

Who would YOU want in net?

Roberto Luongo? Evgeni Nabokov? Marc Andre Fleury?

Or Ty Conklin?

Honestly.....

Regardless of their play, THIS SEASON, that's quite simply a no-brainer.

[Outsider 42]

Just because Osgood is loyal and has been in this team for long time, it does not been Osgood should not be blamed. All people can blame players when they are playing bad and it is just a different thought by different people and when they are playing bad but players should not be bitched. That's a bandwagon.

For the record, you're completely mistaken about the definition of a "bandwagon", and what makes a "bandwagon fan", as well.

A "bandwagon" is "the latest thing", the "hot trend", the "popular pick". The "new kid on the block", as it were.

A "bandwagon fan" is one who supports his/her Team only in time of success, and either ignores, abandons, or turns on them during "tough times".

Sound familiar?

[Electrophile 3,554]

Okay, I was summoned to this thread to try and beat back the sharks, so here goes nothing:

Is Ozzie playing poorly right now? Yes. Is he playing quite poorly? Yes. Do we like that? No. Does that mean he should be disembowled with a wooden cooking spoon and left to die and decay in the sun while Ty Conklin's body is foisted upon our shoulders and marched out to glory?

No.

Look, go ahead and say I'm sucking Ozzie's nuts or I don't care about whether the team wins or not because I'll just defend him anyway....I don't really care. Some of you have your minds made up that he's worthless s*** and should be jettisoned like waste from a 747, so nothing I or anyone else who gives a s*** about the guy say can change your minds. He's not playing well, we know that. We all want him to do better because this team is stronger with two great goalies as opposed to one. I'm not convinced he'll be playing like s*** come playoff time and I am sure that whatever slide he's on, he'll work himself out of. So continue to cackle, hens. It's been entertaining.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Electrophile

[Vladifan 680]

This is probably the tenth thread I've seen on various boards over the years that have ripped Ozzie, and oh my it's wearing thin.

Whether we as Red Wings' fans admit it or not, we are spoiled rotten. We're used to winning and having it our way. And we're used to winning YESTERDAY. We assume that everything will go smoothly. For years now, our stars have been playing like a team and playing pretty much without major incident. Meanwhile, many of us have obviously conveniently forgotten that most of our third and fourth line players would play on top lines on other teams.

Now we find that our team - partly our defense, but especially our first-string goalie - is letting us down. He's human. He's fallible. And even Lidstrom is seemingly losing his touch. OH

MY

GOD. Check the frickin' skies...

Well, kids - while many of you rant, rave and stomp your feet and want Whoever benched YESTERDAY I'm just gonna go on being so very grateful for what this team has done in the past and I will most certainly look forward to what they'll do in the future. From Mike Ilitch and Kenny Holland on down, they are a collective class act which is a helluva lot more than I can say for many of the posters here. And thank God they're the ones with the experience, perspective and maturity.

[RockyMountainWingGal 108]

Remember the Hasek vs. Cujo year? That had to set a record for the most goalie threads and the most people suspended from the site for inappropriate comments.

Ahhh, the good ole days!

Yes! This doesn't really even come close to that debacle. In fact we had the triumvirate of goalies that year - Hasek, Cujo, AND Legace.

I personally think Osgood burned everything in the tank last spring to help win us the Cup. He has certainly not played well this year - at least not well enough. But putting in career backup Ty Conklin isn't going to improve our fate either.

I see both sides. Yes the team D has been horrible, but on the other hand, can either of our GTs make a save when our D breaks down?? That is their job.

The other problem lies in the cap system. You cannot have expensive players at EVERY position. The Red Wings have chosen to put their money into their defense and forwards and go cheap on the goalies. In order to get an upgrade in goal (and who's to say we would even get an upgrade) we would have to trade some of the forwards or defensemen, for such GT. The Red Wings have not had that long term "franchise goalie" for

a few decades. Ozzie is about as close to that as we have come. It seems to be the teams' way. I am hopeful one of these youngsters in GR turns out to be something worth holding onto long term - it might be nice for a change. In the meantime, we are stuck (if you could call it that) with a stellar team (that hasn't been playing like one) with mediocre goaltending.

We are still Cup contenders and if Oz and the team can only play a little better - we should be right there in the end. If not, then we obviously don't deserve to be.

Edited February 2, 2009 by RockyMountainWingGal

[Ms_Hockey 0]

Remember the Hasek vs. Cujo year? That had to set a record for the most goalie threads and the most people suspended from the site for inappropriate comments.

Ahhh, the good ole days!

Like my dad says, if you want to piss of an LGW poster - tell them that you love the starting goalie.

[Guest Crymson]

It's an unfortunate fact that, sooner or later, quality posters will completely desert this board and leave it to the "fantasy hockey trade/NHL2K9" crowd, simply because they can't stand the frustration of dealing with the kiddies.

And that will be a shame, because there was a time when this was the ultimate Wings message board, and Matt worked his ARSE off to get it there.

Oh.....

And thank you for your ever-so-gracious invitation to get the Hell out. Very hospitable of you, I must say.

Well-put. It's not up to me to judge my own quality as a poster---that is quite naturally subjective---but the idiots, who seem to have come here in droves since the Cup win, have pretty much driven me away from substantial participation in any discussion.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Well-put. It's not up to me to judge my own quality as a poster---that is quite naturally subjective---but the idiots, who seem to have come here in droves since the Cup win, have pretty much driven me away from substantial participation in any discussion.

Thank God for idiots.

And since when was kissing Holland's ass at every chance considered a "substantial participation in any discussion"?

[interminded 1]

Joined: Yesterday, 05:55 AM

right....