Top 20 players

[egroen 384]

I know Luongo doesn't have much of a playoff career, but Brodeur in the last few playoffs has been terrible. To me, he's a product of a team that had great defensemen for many years, and played a defensive style of trapping hockey.

Ever since they've gone away from that style, and ever since Rafalski, Stevens and Nidermayer left, Brodeur has been subpar in the playoffs. Also, they did fine last year without him as a team. Basically, I'm saying that he's overrated.

I do think Brodeur is on the downslope, and with his first significant injury last year (missing half the season, where his backups ended up outplaying him) I think he will pick up speed.

[eva unit zero 271]

I know Luongo doesn't have much of a playoff career, but Brodeur in the last few playoffs has been terrible. To me, he's a product of a team that had great defensemen for many years, and played a defensive style of trapping hockey.

Ever since they've gone away from that style, and ever since Rafalski, Stevens and Nidermayer left, Brodeur has been subpar in the playoffs. Also, they did fine last year without him as a team. Basically, I'm saying that he's overrated.

Brodeur outplayed Luongo by a wide margin in last year's playoffs. You know, just for the record. Also, since people pretty much consider Luongo a top three goaltender because he consistently posts a high save percentage... Tim Thomas beat Luongo in wins, winning percentage, goals against average, and save percentage in both the regular season and the playoffs. Yes, Luongo faced more shots, but facing more shots than a guy with superior numbers doesn't automatically make you better.

Back to the main argument; Brodeur's playoff performances have not been subpar for years. Only three times since the Devils won the Cup in 2000 has Brodeur posted a playoff sv% under .916. In that same period, he has gone 48-44 in the postseason with two finals appearances and one Cup win. His sv% has also been over .925 three times during that period.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Brodeur outplayed Luongo by a wide margin in last year's playoffs. You know, just for the record. Also, since people pretty much consider Luongo a top three goaltender because he consistently posts a high save percentage... Tim Thomas beat Luongo in wins, winning percentage, goals against average, and save percentage in both the regular season and the playoffs. Yes, Luongo faced more shots, but facing more shots than a guy with superior numbers doesn't automatically make you better.

Back to the main argument; Brodeur's playoff performances have not been subpar for years. Only three times since the Devils won the Cup in 2000 has Brodeur posted a playoff sv% under .916. In that same period, he has gone 48-44 in the postseason with two finals appearances and one Cup win. His sv% has also been over .925 three times during that period.

The Devils last Cup came in 2003, not 2000.

Since then, he's done s*** in the playoffs and has been outplayed by Ray Emery, Cam Ward and Sean "freaking" Avery, who totally got into Brodeur's head in that series. His numbers were good, but in these days all goalies seem to put up good numbers. Bottom line is that he was outplayed by the other team's goalie.

To me, he's a product of a good defensive system will several Hall of Fame defensemen and the TRAP. He's done nothing in the playoffs with this new Devils squad.

Luongo hasn't done much in the playoffs either, so I look at their regular season success in recent memory, and I think Luongo has been better and has had more of a load to carry.

[StevieY'sguy 1]

The Devils last Cup came in 2003, not 2000.

Since then, he's done s*** in the playoffs and has been outplayed by Ray Emery, Cam Ward and Sean "freaking" Avery, who totally got into Brodeur's head in that series. His numbers were good, but in these days all goalies seem to put up good numbers. Bottom line is that he was outplayed by the other team's goalie.

To me, he's a product of a good defensive system will several Hall of Fame defensemen and the TRAP. He's done nothing in the playoffs with this new Devils squad.

Luongo hasn't done much in the playoffs either, so I look at their regular season success in recent memory, and I think Luongo has been better and has had more of a load to carry.

Several HOF defenseman? since when does Stevens and Niedermayer qualify as several? You know it's ironic that hockey fans always want to point out how Brodeur success had so much to do with the teams he had in front of him and all of these great players he was so fortunate to play behind...but when the subject turns to Patrick Roy all you hear about is how he was god's gift to goaltending, and you never hear anyone suggest that any of his success had anything to do with the players that he had in front of him....here's a comparison of the star players that each goalie played behind throughout the course of their careers :

Brodeur: Scott Stevens, Bill Guerin, Bobby Holik, Claude Lemieux, Scott Neidermayer, Stephane Richer, Scott Gomez, Jason Arnott, Petr Sykora, Patrick Elias, Brian Rafalski, Joe Nieuwendyk, Brian Gionta, Zach Parise

Roy: Chris Chelios, Brian Bellows, Vincent Damphousse Guy Carbonneau (3 selkes) Kirk Muller, Larry Robinson, Denis Savard, Mathieu Schneider,Stephane Richer, Milan Hejduk, Peter Forsberg, Joe Sakic, Claude Lemeiux, Sandis Ozolinsh, Ray Bourque, Rob Blake.

....Clearly Brodeur had more skilled players in front of him than Marty did and yet you never hear a word about it when it comes to Patrick

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Several HOF defenseman? since when does Stevens and Niedermayer qualify as several? You know it's ironic that hockey fans always want to point out how Brodeur success had so much to do with the teams he had in front of him and all of these great players he was so fortunate to play behind...but when the subject turns to Patrick Roy all you hear about is how he was god's gift to goaltending, and you never hear anyone suggest that any of his success had anything to do with the players that he had in front of him....here's a comparison of the star players that each goalie played behind throughout the course of their careers :

Brodeur: Scott Stevens, Bill Guerin, Bobby Holik, Claude Lemieux, Scott Neidermayer, Stephane Richer, Scott Gomez, Jason Arnott, Petr Sykora, Patrick Elias, Brian Rafalski, Joe Nieuwendyk, Brian Gionta, Zach Parise

Roy: Chris Chelios, Brian Bellows, Vincent Damphousse Guy Carbonneau (3 selkes) Kirk Muller, Larry Robinson, Denis Savard, Mathieu Schneider,Stephane Richer, Milan Hejduk, Peter Forsberg, Joe Sakic, Claude Lemeiux, Sandis Ozolinsh, Ray Bourque, Rob Blake.

....Clearly Brodeur had more skilled players in front of him than Marty did and yet you never hear a word about it when it comes to Patrick

Brodeur's teams played the trap, while Roy's teams played in a different era with more scoring. It's a matter of style, not necessarily talent.

Montreal's defense wasn't as good as a Stevens, Nidermayer and Rafalski tandem, and they never played the same style of hockey New Jersey did. In fact, nobody ever played the trap better than the Devils. Brodeur hardly ever had to stand on his head for his team to win.

There's a reason Roy has 3 Conn Smythes and Brodeur has 0. He's clearly had more of a load to carry than Brodeur.

[StevieY'sguy 1]

Brodeur's teams played the trap, while Roy's teams played in a different era with more scoring. It's a matter of style, not necessarily talent.

Montreal's defense wasn't as good as a Stevens, Nidermayer and Rafalski tandem, and they never played the same style of hockey New Jersey did. In fact, nobody ever played the trap better than the Devils. Brodeur hardly ever had to stand on his head for his team to win.

There's a reason Roy has 3 Conn Smythes and Brodeur has 0. He's clearly had more of a load to carry than Brodeur.

Roy played half of his career at the same time Brodeur was in the league so it's not like we're comparing guys who played 50 years apart...While it may be true that Brodeur had a stronger defensive corps...Roy never played on horrible defensive teams either...Chelios, Robinson, Blake, Ozolinsh and Bourque are not slouches. Although Brodeur's teams played a trap, shut down defensive style they also had very few consistent scorers to count on for a big goal when needed so i would argue that Brodeur had more pressure on him as far as letting in goals was concerned because unlike Roy, who had Sakic, Forsberg, Damphousse, Bellows, etc...he did not have a marquee offensive guy or guys to count on to light up the lamp to bail him out. So i would say that Brodeur had to stand on his head more often than Roy due to the consistent lack of offensive prowess on his teams.

"The best defense is a good offense" is a motto that many people on this very forum have used as an agrument to diminish Chris Osgood's career credentials both in the playoffs and the regular season, so anyone who says good offensive players in front of a goalie is not a substantial enough benefit to the goalie to be considered a major deterrent when it comes to looking at a career as whole, had BETTER cut Ozzie the same slack and give him the praise that he has earned.

As far as the Conn Smythe and playoffs is concerned it is a travesty that Brodeur was never given the Conn Smythe:

- He has the 4th lowest GAA in Stanley Cup Finals history at a sparkling 1.87, and the lowest of the modern era, even lower than Roy's

- In 1995 he went 16-4 and swept the heavily favored Wings in the Finals in only his 2nd season in the league. He led all playoff goalies in shots faced(so the defense wasn't airtight), GAA, save %, and shutouts posting numbers of 1.67, .927%, and 3, respectively

- In 2000 he went 16-7 and once again led all playoff goalies In GAA, was 5th in save % and 3rd in shutouts with 1.61, .927% and 2, respectively

- 2003 he got royally screwed out of the trophy, going 16-8 posting a 1.65 GAA, .934 save %, and posting an all-time NHL record 7 shutouts in the playoffs including another all time NHL record 3 in the Stanley Cup Finals....and yet it took his team 7 games to win the series (cue my point about having to carry his team)....and they gave the trophy to Jiggy from Anaheim who posted a 1.62, .945 save % and 5 shutouts...essentially the same numbers as Marty except in one category...2003 Cup titles

-As far as playing in pressure packed playoff games, 10 of 24 of Brodeur's career Cup Finals games were decided by one goal...so he had very little margin for error a lot of the time he played in the finals. 2000 i could see not saying he was deserving but his 1995 and 2003 seasons on top of being two of the most impressive in playoff history, were MORE than deserving of a Conn Smythe

Edited September 21, 2009 by StevieY'sguy

[hockeysattva 8]

Tim Thomas

[BigTex 1]

Tim Thomas

This guy definately does not get his due. He needs a more exciting/international name. Something with a Z or Y maybe. Yves Ztomas.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Voting has petered off at 15 votes. I'll keep it open until the end of the day for at least 5 more votes. Right now we're still voting for 9th best player (best player not including Ovechkin, Lidstrom, Crosby, Datsyuk, Malkin, Zetterberg, Iginla, or Getzlaf).

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Voting has petered off at 15 votes. I'll keep it open until the end of the day for at least 5 more votes. Right now we're still voting for 9th best player (best player not including Ovechkin, Lidstrom, Crosby, Datsyuk, Malkin, Zetterberg, Iginla, or Getzlaf).

Not only has it petered off, as you put it, but now people are starting to vote for Tim Thomas of all people.

Apparently, they can't name anymore than 8 NHL All-Stars.

[55fan 5,133]

Y'all are gonna think I'm crazy, but if we're assuming all people are as they would be if healthy, I'm going to vote for Hossa.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Y'all are gonna think I'm crazy, but if we're assuming all people are as they would be if healthy, I'm going to vote for Hossa.

Or as they call him in Detroit, "The Phantom of the Playoffs"

[StevieY'sguy 1]

Kovalchuk

[BeeRYCE 2]

Considering this guy was the offensive and overall main piece of the puzzle with Brodeur gone a good portion of the season, I'm going to have to say Zach Parise...

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Parise.

[eva unit zero 271]

Not only has it petered off, as you put it, but now people are starting to vote for Tim Thomas of all people.

Apparently, they can't name anymore than 8 NHL All-Stars.

Tim Thomas won the 2009 Vezina and had a very good 2008 season also. He's at least as reasonable a pick as Luongo as he has had a higher save percentage both of the past two seasons and about as many wins in fewer games. They have comparable playoff performances over the past two seasons. Unless of course you will bring up Luongo's save percentage when you are arguing in his favor about how he is ahead of someone, but when he isn't it suddenly doesn't matter.

[hak 21]

my vote is on Kovalchuck

hey Echolalia would you mind gathering the results on the first page? The thread is getting big and messy..

Edited September 22, 2009 by hak

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Tim Thomas won the 2009 Vezina and had a very good 2008 season also. He's at least as reasonable a pick as Luongo as he has had a higher save percentage both of the past two seasons and about as many wins in fewer games. They have comparable playoff performances over the past two seasons. Unless of course you will bring up Luongo's save percentage when you are arguing in his favor about how he is ahead of someone, but when he isn't it suddenly doesn't matter.

Thomas is playing for a way better team. Of course he's going to have more wins. He just had one hot season and now everyone is ready to vote him the BEST goalie in the NHL. That's pushing it, don't you think?

He might be in the top 5, but he's definitely not the best goalie in the league just because he won the Vezina on a really good team.

[Carman 387]

Going with Chara again.

[eva unit zero 271]

Thomas is playing for a way better team. Of course he's going to have more wins. He just had one hot season and now everyone is ready to vote him the BEST goalie in the NHL. That's pushing it, don't you think?

He might be in the top 5, but he's definitely not the best goalie in the league just because he won the Vezina on a really good team.

Last season, Thomas faced more shots per game than Luongo did, but posted a better save percentage and GAA while posting more wins in the same number of games. The season before, he faced more shots per game, posted a better winning percentage and almost as many wins in about 20 fewer games, and a comparable GAA.

Over the last two seasons, Thomas and Luongo have, at the very least, put up similar performances. Calling Luongo the best goalie in the world while saying Tim Thomas is a nobody after the past two seasons is simply an uneducated statement.

[StevieY'sguy 1]

Last season, Thomas faced more shots per game than Luongo did, but posted a better save percentage and GAA while posting more wins in the same number of games. The season before, he faced more shots per game, posted a better winning percentage and almost as many wins in about 20 fewer games, and a comparable GAA.

Over the last two seasons, Thomas and Luongo have, at the very least, put up similar performances. Calling Luongo the best goalie in the world while saying Tim Thomas is a nobody after the past two seasons is simply an uneducated statement.

I agree, idk why everyone on this thread has such a boner for Luongo but refuse to say anything good about any other player that doesn't play for the Wings...

[Echolalia 2,961]

Okay I'm content with this vote count.

Luongo took the 9th spot with 7 votes, or 33.33% (That is the smallest percentage to win so far).

Kovalchuk took second place with 5 votes (23.81%)

Parise took third place with 3 votes (14.29%)

Thomas and Broduer took 4th place with 2 votes each (9.52%)

Hossa and Chara came up the rear with 1 vote each (4.76%)

This round had a total of 21 votes.

And for 10th best (or half way there!!!!):

I'll continue to start us off with a vote for Kovalchuk.

ps: thanks for continuing to bold your answers; it makes it a lot easier to count it.

my vote is on Kovalchuck

hey Echolalia would you mind gathering the results on the first page? The thread is getting big and messy..

No problem.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Last season, Thomas faced more shots per game than Luongo did, but posted a better save percentage and GAA while posting more wins in the same number of games. The season before, he faced more shots per game, posted a better winning percentage and almost as many wins in about 20 fewer games, and a comparable GAA.

Over the last two seasons, Thomas and Luongo have, at the very least, put up similar performances. Calling Luongo the best goalie in the world while saying Tim Thomas is a nobody after the past two seasons is simply an uneducated statement.

I didn't say Thomas is a nobody, I just can't understand how anyone can say he's the best goalie in the whole league. Ahead of Luongo, Brodeur, Lundqvist, Nabokov and Kiprusoff.

His number of wins has a lot to do with playing in front of a team that finished 1st in the East. I just don't think he's a top 10 NHL player.

[Carman 387]

Chara again

[Lamothe 5]

Kovalchuck

I would vote for Chara, because the list is lacking defensemen... But I can't justify saying that Kovalchuck isn't in the top 11 or 12 or so.