Outsider 42 Report post Posted January 1, 2010 Agreed. It's up to the goalie/player to play better if they think the coach might not be too pleased with their performance. Complaining to the media and knocking the coach's judgment seems the wrong way to go about fixing the situation. JMO. There might be more going on here than we know/assume. I agree with the bolded part, loo. And that's why I think it's a mistake to push Osgood to this level of frustration. You know the guy. You're not exactly a fan of the man, but even you know for a fact that he's the consummate Team guy, and doesn't complain about anything. If he's frustrated to the point where he's popping off in the Press, then he's on the ragged edge. He's not "whining".....he's pissy.....just as he was pissy last Season toward the Play Offs when everyone kept hammering him with questions about how he was possibly going to be "good enough" once the Post Season started, when he'd been so God Awful all Season long. He listened to the same exact questions, and gave the same exact answers, for MONTHS, before he finally got nasty toward the end of the Season. And when the Play Offs started, he had a terrible attitude with the Press. Right before Game 1 against Columbus he was asked, point blank, if it bothered him that most Hockey pundits were giving Columbus the decided edge in goal due to Steve Mason. Osgood's response? "Who's doing that? Who?" he literally snapped. He paused....waiting for an answer. None came. He slashed his hand through the air like a knife and spat out "Go. Next question." He wasn't "whining" then. He's not whining now. He's extremely frustrated. And he's right on the edge of "pissed off". There's a fine line being walked here. Babcock wants him fired up. He does NOT want him wound too tight. And that, (I think), is the point that gcom was trying to make earlier in this thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
puckloo39 5,686 Report post Posted January 1, 2010 I agree with the bolded part, loo. And that's why I think it's a mistake to push Osgood to this level of frustration. You know the guy. You're not exactly a fan of the man, but even you know for a fact that he's the consummate Team guy, and doesn't complain about anything. If he's frustrated to the point where he's popping off in the Press, then he's on the ragged edge. He's not "whining".....he's pissy.....just as he was pissy last Season toward the Play Offs when everyone kept hammering him with questions about how he was possibly going to be "good enough" once the Post Season started, when he'd been so God Awful all Season long. He listened to the same exact questions, and gave the same exact answers, for MONTHS, before he finally got nasty toward the end of the Season. And when the Play Offs started, he had a terrible attitude with the Press. Right before Game 1 against Columbus he was asked, point blank, if it bothered him that most Hockey pundits were giving Columbus the decided edge in goal due to Steve Mason. Osgood's response? "Who's doing that? Who?" he literally snapped. He paused....waiting for an answer. None came. He slashed his hand through the air like a knife and spat out "Go. Next question." He wasn't "whining" then. He's not whining now. He's extremely frustrated. And he's right on the edge of "pissed off". There's a fine line being walked here. Babcock wants him fired up. He does NOT want him wound too tight. And that, (I think), is the point that gcom was trying to make earlier in this thread. Oh, I totally get where Ozzie's coming from. And I don't think of it as whining. But I do think he would do well to show what he's feeling on the ice, rather than questioning Babcock publicly. The team is injured and down. That's when your elite goalies stand up and do something to support them. Ozzie needs to play better. The team needs him to show up. Time for the team guy to show up now, or shut up and let Howard lead the team. Yeah, I am not his biggest fan, you're right. But he's better than this. He is welcome to prove it to me, any time now!! I don't want to argue with you, I respect your opinion. I just want Ozzie to play the way we all know he can. Now would be the right time for that! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outsider 42 Report post Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) Oh, I totally get where Ozzie's coming from. And I don't think of it as whining. But I do think he would do well to show what he's feeling on the ice, rather than questioning Babcock publicly. The team is injured and down. That's when your elite goalies stand up and do something to support them. Ozzie needs to play better. The team needs him to show up. Time for the team guy to show up now, or shut up and let Howard lead the team. Yeah, I am not his biggest fan, you're right. But he's better than this. He is welcome to prove it to me, any time now!! I don't want to argue with you, I respect your opinion. I just want Ozzie to play the way we all know he can. Now would be the right time for that! I'm not interested in arguing with you either, loo. That's because I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said. You're right. Oz does need to play better. And for the record, I do not believe, (nor have I ever), that Osgood is an "elite" goaltender. He's not. What he is, is "clutch". And he's clutch not because of his skill, or his talent, but because of his Heart. And he will play better. I have full confidence in that assertion. But he's going to have to play, period, in order to "play better". That's the point that's being missed here. And that's the point that he, personally, addressed in the article. He's not playing. And yet people are expecting him to "play better". When he gets the opportunity to play, he WILL "play better". But until he GETS the opportunity, expecting him to "earn" the opportunity to "play better" - by PLAYING BETTER - is assinine, circular thinking. Again....that's the point HE is making, and that's the point that I have been making. Everyone keeps waiting for him to "show up", but he's not been given the opportunity to "show up." Oh...and Happy New Year. Edited January 1, 2010 by Outsider Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted January 1, 2010 He's not playing. And yet people are expecting him to "play better". When he gets the opportunity to play, he WILL "play better". But until he GETS the opportunity, expecting him to "earn" the opportunity to "play better" - by PLAYING BETTER - is assinine, circular thinking. Exactly, then why does he have to cause a scene when the team is actually winning? He will get better, most reasonable fans understand how Osgood plays by now. But it still doesn't erase the fact he hasn't played well so far. We expect him to "play better". But we also expected him to "play better" earlier in the season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Statts 4 Report post Posted January 1, 2010 I fully expected Howard to Start against Phoenix on Saturday. You should have, too. He played well enough to Win against Colorado, and there's really no need to bench HIM. I never stated that there was. Also, Osgood, (throughout his career), has been absolutely dreadful against Phoenix. His record and personal stats against the 'Yotes are some of the worst he's posted.....going back to their days in the 'Peg. All I've been saying, from the get-go, is that there's no reason to KEEP Ozzie on the bench. He's not playing terribly. If he was, then there might be some justification. He's not.... So you say there is no need to bench Howard, then go on to say there is no reason to keep Ozzie on the bench? Yep. Air tight argument you got. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest lilja4mvp Report post Posted January 1, 2010 @ Outsider Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outsider 42 Report post Posted January 1, 2010 So you say there is no need to bench Howard, then go on to say there is no reason to keep Ozzie on the bench? Yep. Air tight argument you got. What part of the argument is unclear to you? There's no reason to "bench" Howard, as in "You only get 2 or 3 games a month, Jimmy." There's also no reason to KEEP Osgood on the bench, as in "You only get 2 or 3 games a month, Chris." There were 14 Games in November. Osgood, (even with his bout with the flu), got 6 of the 14. Howard got 8. Neither goaltender was benched, and both had a modicum of success and ample playing time, with neither rotting away on the bench. There were also 14 Games in December. Osgood got 3 of the 14. Howard got 11. One goaltender was benched, and only one got ample playing time, with the other rotting away on the bench. Oh....wait....you want Osgood to "play better" before he gets to play more games. Right? And since he didn't play any better against Columbus on the 26th, he hasn't "earned" another opportunity. Oh....wait....he didn't play that game.....how was he supposed to "play better"? He ALSO didn't play any better against Columbus on the 28th, same scenario. Right? Oh....yeah.....he didn't play in THAT game, either. Rather difficult to "play better" in that game, too. And, typically, Osgood definitely made absolutely NO improvement against Colorado. Therefore, he hasn't "earned" an opportunity to "play better". Except, of course, for the fact that he had ZERO chance to show ANY LEVEL of improvement.....because he DIDN'T PLAY. Gee....Osgood has shown a distinct lack of progress and improvement in games he HASN'T played in this Season. And since he hasn't improved in the games he HASN'T played in, then I guess he hasn't earned the opportunity to "play better" in all of the games he's NOT PLAYING IN. Again.....this is not exactly rocket surgery here. It IS possible to NOT bench Howard, while concurrently not KEEPING Osgood on the bench. Your ability to think logically is air tight. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outsider 42 Report post Posted January 1, 2010 @ Outsider Awwww....what a cute little smilie! And this post is almost as constructive, and very nearly as substantive, as your "you can bold every word in every post you make and it won't change the fact that osgood is brutal". When is Winter Recess over again? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Statts 4 Report post Posted January 1, 2010 Like I said yesterday Outsider, you're thinking too hard. Logic tells me, the Wings need wins. Howard is making the saves and giving the Wings an opportunity to win games. Why change what is working? Why cant you just be happy Howard is playing so well ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carman 387 Report post Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) Like I said yesterday Outsider, you're thinking too hard. Logic tells me, the Wings need wins. Howard is making the saves and giving the Wings an opportunity to win games. Why change what is working? Why cant you just be happy Howard is playing so well ? Probably because it gives people fuel to use against Osgood. They real answer is somewhere in the middle, Osgood isn't playing as badly as the stats look and doesn't deserve much heat, yet Howard deserves the playing time as he is getting the job done. No reason to take anything away from either goalie. Except the fact that Osgood made a public comment out of frustration. But even that is just because he is competitive and it's good to see that he wants to be better. This is not a big deal, the leadership on this team won't let this become one. So in closing, Howard has been good, Osgood will be good and Babcock's going to play the goalie he feels gives the team a better shot any given night. Howard is hopefully our future, and Osgood is hopefully back to playoff form. End of story. Edited January 1, 2010 by Carman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outsider 42 Report post Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) Like I said yesterday Outsider, you're thinking too hard. Logic tells me, the Wings need wins. Howard is making the saves and giving the Wings an opportunity to win games. Why change what is working? Why cant you just be happy Howard is playing so well ? I am happy that Howard is playing well. But to overstate that he's playing "so well" is deceptive. He's playing well. Nothing more. Nothing less. But I AM happy for that fact. Now.....Why can't I JUST be happy about that? Good question. Simple answer. For the exact same reason why I couldn't be coaxed, nor drop kicked, nor dragged - kicking and screaming - onto the Legace bandwagon in 2005-2006. Not even when everyone and their cousin was chirping about how they always knew that Legace had it in him....that all he needed was "a shot". Hell....If they could Win it all with Freakin' OSGOOD, then SURELY Legace could fulfill the promise of nothing more than "just" making the saves he had to make. Right? Right? Except that, (as I shouted from the rooftops ALL that Season - and was roundly BLASTED for it!), Legace wasn't ever given a "shot" for a reason. A very good and obvious reason. That reason became glaringly obvious down the stretch, and especially once the Post Season began. To those of us, (and there were a few....quite a few....), who saw it coming from OCTOBER of 2005.....It wasn't exactly a surprise. Babcock was "warned". He was "advised". And by some very astute hockey minds who happened to be quite familiar with Mr. Legace, and his mental make-up. He ignored the advice, and chose to put his "stamp" on the 2005-2006 Detroit Red Wings, in his first year as Head Coach. It was a "stamp", alright. A stamp of death. And the very last time we all saw the indomitable, (and, coincidentally, the very astute), Steve Yzerman skate off the ice with that "C" emblazoned so fittingly over his heart..... Was in needless, pointlesss, totally avoidable.....IGNOMINIOUS DEFEAT. Why? WHY? Because Babcock had that "It's not about what you've done. It's about 'what have you done for me lately'?" attitude regarding his goaltending. It's NOT about "what have you done for me lately." Players at this level attain, and MAINTAIN, a certain level of success for a reason. Otherwise we wouldn't see such "spectacular!", "amazing!", "Why....he's the next ELITE goalie!" as Cechmanek, and Turek, and Esche, and Lalime, and Emery, and Biron, and Raycroft, and Ward, and Toskala, and LeClaire, and Hiller, and.....shall I go on.....? Shall I?..... .....burn out, and then WASH OUT, as we've seen so many young, promising, UNTESTED goaltenders. ANY goaltender can have a good run. Christ....Bryan Boucher holds the NHL record for consecutive shut-out minutes in NHL History. Bryan Freakin' Boucher, for the love of God. And while YOU, and everyone else, poo-poo! the FACT that with very RARE exceptions, Howard has built up his Vezina quality rookie Season against primarily bottom feeders, and completely ignore that fact that while he DID get the Win against a good Colorado Team last night, that he also was HARDLY a factor in that Win..... And then think that his success against the CBS's, and the STL's, and the MON's and the ANA's is somehow an indication of how well he'll play against Chicago. Or Washington. Or Pittsburgh. You continue to fail to recognize the significance of the fact that of Howard's 22 Starts, he's only seen 7 Games which could be considered to be against "good" Teams. He holds a record of 3 Wins and 4 Losses in those contests. And of those who could be considered "very good", (namely Chicago.....), he looked completely out of his depth. I know Colorado is "3rd best in the West". Yeah. Colorado is "3rd best" by virtue of the fact that it leads the Northwest Division. They've got fewer points than Phoenix, (STILL Howard's biggest challenge, and his best performance to date), and they're one point ahead of 5th place Calgary with Calgary having TWO Games in hand, and one point ahead of 6th place Nashville with Nashville having one Game in hand. Colorado went 8-6 in the month of December, and are clinging to that "3rd best in the West" status based on their amazing 10-2-2 October. But you keep believing that the quality of the opponents he's facing has absolutely nothing to do with his level of success. And you keep believing that his December record of 6-5, (with FOUR of those six Victories coming against the Power House Rangers, Ducks, Lightning, and Blue Jackets), is going to improve, or even hold up, against THIS MONTHS schedule of Teams.....some "very good" Teams like.... The Kings, and the 'Hawks, and the Caps, and the Sharks, and the Pens....with a few " good" Teams like Phoenix, and Nashville, and the "middling" Dallas Team....MOST of which are on the road, by the way.... You keep thinking that there's enough parity in the League that a steady diet, and a BARELY .500 RECORD, against the easiest portion of this Season's schedule, is somehow, by some miracle, going to translate into a comparable level of success against what is arguably the TOUGHEST portion of this Season's schedule. Just as with last Season....when Conklin was playing so well....(much better than Howard is playing now....despite the "stat lines", and against MUCH tougher competition, to boot), Babcock knew....he knew it then......as he knows it now..... That his BEST hope lies with Chris Osgood. But, again.....you keep right on believing that Howard's 6-5 December record against primarily crappy Teams, is gonna translate into success against a spate of the BEST Teams in the League. Just as you probably thought that Legace had "proven", throughout the entire Regular Season, that he was "ready", and "capable", of stopping only the shots that he needed to stop, that he'd proven that he was "more than capable" of leading a Play Off charge, because all he was really expected to do was to "not lose" games. Everyone keeps talking about how "excellent" Howard has been. How he's been at HIS personal best, while Osgood has not. Guess what? That "excellence", that "personal best", has resulted in a SIX and FIVE record.....during the softest portion of the schedule. And as much as you refuse to see it.....BABCOCK sees it...... That Howard's "personal best" is not good enough to carry them through, and position them for the Post Season. Babcock knows.....just as he KNEW last Season.....that what he needs, what the Team needs, what it's going to take is more than Howard's "personal best", (good as that has been, for a rookie). What it's going to take is OSGOOD'S "personal best". It's in EVERYONE'S best interest to get Osgood BACK on TOP of his Game. ASAP. Because Howard's "excellent" play against primarily bottom feeders isn't gonna cut it in Washington. Or in San Jose. Or in Pittsburgh. Just as it didn't cut it in Chicago. THAT is why I can't "just" be happy that Howard is playing well enough to post a 6-5 record against the softest portion of the Season schedule, while the BEST hope for this Team sits on the bench because Howard's been playing "well enough" to go 6-5 in December. Edited January 2, 2010 by Outsider Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Statts 4 Report post Posted January 2, 2010 I am happy that Howard is playing well. But to overstate that he's playing "so well" is deceptive. He's playing well. Nothing more. Nothing less. But I AM happy for that fact. Now.....Why can't I JUST be happy about that? Good question. Simple answer. For the exact same reason why I couldn't be coaxed, nor drop kicked, nor dragged - kicking and screaming - onto the Legace bandwagon in 2005-2006. Not even when everyone and their cousin was chirping about how they always knew that Legace had it in him....that all he needed was "a shot". Hell....If they could Win it all with Freakin' OSGOOD, then SURELY Legace could fulfill the promise of nothing more than "just" making the saves he had to make. Right? Right? Except that, (as I shouted from the rooftops ALL that Season - and was roundly BLASTED for it!), Legace wasn't ever given a "shot" for a reason. A very good and obvious reason. That reason became glaringly obvious down the stretch, and especially once the Post Season began. To those of us, (and there were a few....quite a few....), who saw it coming from OCTOBER of 2005.....It wasn't exactly a surprise. Babcock was "warned". He was "advised". And by some very astute hockey minds who happened to be quite familiar with Mr. Legace, and his mental make-up. He ignored the advice, and chose to put his "stamp" on the 2005-2006 Detroit Red Wings, in his first year as Head Coach. It was a "stamp", alright. A stamp of death. And the very last time we all saw the indomitable, (and, coincidentally, the very astute), Steve Yzerman skate off the ice with that "C" emblazoned so fittingly over his heart..... Was in needless, pointlesss, totally avoidable.....IGNOMINIOUS DEFEAT. Why? WHY? Because Babcock had that "It's not about what you've done. It's about 'what have you done for me lately'?" attitude regarding his goaltending. It's NOT about "what have you done for me lately." Players at this level attain, and MAINTAIN, a certain level of success for a reason. Otherwise we wouldn't see such "spectacular!", "amazing!", "Why....he's the next ELITE goalie!" as Cechmanek, and Turek, and Esche, and Lalime, and Emery, and Biron, and Raycroft, and Ward, and Toskala, and LeClaire, and Hiller, and.....shall I go on.....? Shall I?..... .....burn out, and then WASH OUT, as we've seen so many young, promising, UNTESTED goaltenders. ANY goaltender can have a good run. Christ....Bryan Boucher holds the NHL record for consecutive shut-out minutes in NHL History. Bryan Freakin' Boucher, for the love of God. And while YOU, and everyone else, poo-poo! the FACT that with very RARE exceptions, Howard has built up his Vezina quality rookie Season against primarily bottom feeders, and completely ignore that fact that while he DID get the Win against a good Colorado Team last night, that he also was HARDLY a factor in that Win..... And then think that his success against the CBS's, and the STL's, and the MON's and the ANA's is somehow an indication of how well he'll play against Chicago. Or Washington. Or Pittsburgh. You continue to fail to recognize the significance of the fact that of Howard's 22 Starts, he's only seen 7 Games which could be considered to be against "good" Teams. He holds a record of 3 Wins and 4 Losses in those contests. And of those who could be considered "very good", (namely Chicago.....), he looked completely out of his depth. I know Colorado is "3rd best in the West". Yeah. Colorado is "3rd best" by virtue of the fact that it leads the Northwest Division. They've got fewer points than Phoenix, (STILL Howard's biggest challenge, and his best performance to date), and they're one point ahead of 5th place Calgary with Calgary having TWO Games in hand, and one point ahead of 6th place Nashville with Nashville having one Game in hand. Colorado went 8-6 in the month of December, and are clinging to that "3rd best in the West" status based on their amazing 10-2-2 October. But you keep believing that the quality of the opponents he's facing has absolutely nothing to do with his level of success. And you keep believing that his December record of 6-5, (with FOUR of those six Victories coming against the Power House Rangers, Ducks, Lightning, and Blue Jackets), is going to improve, or even hold up, against THIS MONTHS schedule of Teams.....some "very good" Teams like.... The Kings, and the 'Hawks, and the Caps, and the Sharks, and the Pens....with a few " good" Teams like Phoenix, and Nashville, and the "middling" Dallas Team....MOST of which are on the road, by the way.... You keep thinking that there's enough parity in the League that a steady diet, and a BARELY .500 RECORD, against the easiest portion of this Season's schedule, is somehow, by some miracle, going to translate into a comparable level of success against what is arguably the TOUGHEST portion of this Season's schedule. Just as with last Season....when Conklin was playing so well....(much better than Howard is playing now....despite the "stat lines", and against MUCH tougher competition, to boot), Babcock knew....he knew it then......as he knows it now..... That his BEST hope lies with Chris Osgood. But, again.....you keep right on believing that Howard's 6-5 December record against primarily crappy Teams, is gonna translate into success against a spate of the BEST Teams in the League. Just as you probably thought that Legace had "proven", throughout the entire Regular Season, that he was "ready", and "capable", of stopping only the shots that he needed to stop, that he'd proven that he was "more than capable" of leading a Play Off charge, because all he was really expected to do was to "not lose" games. Everyone keeps talking about how "excellent" Howard has been. How he's been at HIS personal best, while Osgood has not. Guess what? That "excellence", that "personal best", has resulted in a SIX and FIVE record.....during the softest portion of the schedule. And as much as you refuse to see it.....BABCOCK sees it...... That Howard's "personal best" is not good enough to carry them through, and position them for the Post Season. Babcock knows.....just as he KNEW last Season.....that what he needs, what the Team needs, what it's going to take is more than Howard's "personal best", (good as that has been, for a rookie). What it's going to take is OSGOOD'S "personal best". It's in EVERYONE'S best interest to get Osgood BACK on TOP of his Game. ASAP. Because Howard's "excellent" play against primarily bottom feeders isn't gonna cut it in Washington. Or in San Jose. Or in Pittsburgh. Just as it didn't cut it in Chicago. THAT is why I can't "just" be happy that Howard is playing well enough to post a 6-5 record against the softest portion of the Season schedule, while the BEST hope for this Team sits on the bench because Howard's been playing "well enough" to go 6-5 in December. IF the Wings make the playoffs, yes, Osgood will start no question. Just like Hasek did in '08. Right now though the Wings are 10th place. We need to win now. Howard is doing that. Its too early to worry about the playoffs. There are 40+ games left in the reg season. Howard WILL hit a slumping period. When that happens, Ozzie can jump in and "get his game back." Until then lets ride the hot goalie. 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Guest lilja4mvp Report post Posted January 2, 2010 Awwww....what a cute little smilie! And this post is almost as constructive, and very nearly as substantive, as your "you can bold every word in every post you make and it won't change the fact that osgood is brutal". When is Winter Recess over again? sometimes less is more. please, more idiotic long-winded rants! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedWings Gone Wild 6 Report post Posted January 2, 2010 For the exact same reason why I couldn't be coaxed, nor drop kicked, nor dragged - kicking and screaming - onto the Legace bandwagon in 2005-2006. Not even when everyone and their cousin was chirping about how they always knew that Legace had it in him....that all he needed was "a shot". Hell....If they could Win it all with Freakin' OSGOOD, then SURELY Legace could fulfill the promise of nothing more than "just" making the saves he had to make. Right? Otherwise we wouldn't see such "spectacular!", "amazing!", "Why....he's the next ELITE goalie!" as Cechmanek, and Turek, and Esche, and Lalime, and Emery, and Biron, and Raycroft, and Ward, and Toskala, and LeClaire, and Hiller, and.....shall I go on.....? Shall I?..... .....burn out, and then WASH OUT, as we've seen so many young, promising, UNTESTED goaltenders. ANY goaltender can have a good run. Christ....Bryan Boucher holds the NHL record for consecutive shut-out minutes in NHL History. Bryan Freakin' Boucher, for the love of God. Just as with last Season....when Conklin was playing so well....(much better than Howard is playing now....despite the "stat lines", and against MUCH tougher competition, to boot), Babcock knew....he knew it then......as he knows it now..... That his BEST hope lies with Chris Osgood. But, again.....you keep right on believing that Howard's 6-5 December record against primarily crappy Teams, is gonna translate into success against a spate of the BEST Teams in the League. This is my last comment in this section (hopefully)... but realize that every one of your defenses of Osgood this season (quality of opponent, the way the Wings played in front of him, etc..) is directly refuted by the ways in which you prove other goaltenders are conversely weak... somehow, team plays a role in every one of Osgood's defeats, but then you undercut Howard's play based upon the record it's yielded? You use the same logic to undercut Legace. Is he psychologically weak? Yes. Was he good in net for us in the playoffs? Nope. But as with most of our early round flops (which easily outnumber our postseason successes) the story was in the lack of offensive productivity once the pressure was upped in the playoffs (every loss in that round was by a goal, some in multiple OTs... the team flat out stunk, not just Manny). Similar goaltending performances could be mentioned in 99-00, 00-01, too... I think goaltending is the least enviable position in the NHL (and perhaps sports), because success is so circumstantial, and goalies, like coaches, are the easiest ones to blame when things don't go right... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vladifan 680 Report post Posted January 2, 2010 Who is Osgood hater??? True (are you?) Red Wings fan doesn't care who is goalie... he cares about winning... Your comments absolutely blow me away. YOU are the one who implied that anyone who supports Ozzie and would like to see him get more playing time (The whole argument, I believe?) is an "Ozzie-lover". Here's a direct quote from your post: "You see Ozzy lovers will ALWAYS bash all other goalies that we have/had in Detroit. Even if we had Brodeur they are able to find something wrong/bad about him.">>> So not only are we automatically "Ozzie lovers" if we would like to see him get more playing time, we also "ALWAYS bash other goalies...". I've seen very little bashing of other goalies in this thread, including Brodeur. So why are you persisting in these absolute, black-and-white statements? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedWings Gone Wild 6 Report post Posted January 2, 2010 So not only are we automatically "Ozzie lovers" if we would like to see him get more playing time, we also "ALWAYS bash other goalies...". I've seen very little bashing of other goalies in this thread, including Brodeur. So why are you persisting in these absolute, black-and-white statements? To be fair, I don't agree with the comments of the guy you are arguing with Vladifan... but a quick glimpse through the thread will show you plenty of posts with Legacy/Hasek and other goalies of the past being bashed in favor of Osgood. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outsider 42 Report post Posted January 2, 2010 IF the Wings make the playoffs, yes, Osgood will start no question. Just like Hasek did in '08. Right now though the Wings are 10th place. We need to win now. Howard is doing that. Its too early to worry about the playoffs. There are 40+ games left in the reg season. Howard WILL hit a slumping period. When that happens, Ozzie can jump in and "get his game back." Until then lets ride the hot goalie. Once again.....for the umpteenth time..... What in blue hell makes you think that Howard's "excellent" 6-5 December against primarily BAD Teams is going to translate into "win(s) now" against the likes of the Teams coming up on the schedule for this month? You HAVE seen the schedule, haven't you? Again....and again....and again..... Osgood is going to HAVE TO get some games in, in order to get up to speed. It's unavoidable. He cannot be expected to sit for the majority of the Season, having seen only 3 games in the past MONTH PLUS, and then come in and be "outstanding" against the Teams that are coming up in January. And that's what he's going to have to be. Babs knows it. Chris knows it. We all know it. Take a real, objective, honest look at Jimmy's performances against the better Teams he's faced. And then compare those "better Teams" to the Teams coming up on the schedule. And then tell me that a comparable performance from Mr. Howard is likely to net the same result against the opponents coming up, as it did against the opponents he faced last month. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted January 2, 2010 Once again.....for the umpteenth time..... What in blue hell makes you think that Howard's "excellent" 6-5 December against primarily BAD Teams is going to translate into "win(s) now" against the likes of the Teams coming up on the schedule for this month? You HAVE seen the schedule, haven't you? Again....and again....and again..... Osgood is going to HAVE TO get some games in, in order to get up to speed. It's unavoidable. He cannot be expected to sit for the majority of the Season, having seen only 3 games in the past MONTH PLUS, and then come in and be "outstanding" against the Teams that are coming up in January. And that's what he's going to have to be. Babs knows it. Chris knows it. We all know it. Take a real, objective, honest look at Jimmy's performances against the better Teams he's faced. And then compare those "better Teams" to the Teams coming up on the schedule. And then tell me that a comparable performance from Mr. Howard is likely to net the same result against the opponents coming up, as it did against the opponents he faced last month. Howard is playing great right now so Babs is going to play him as much as possible until his performance drops. Why does that require so much debate on here? If Howard continues to play like he is now, Ozzie will sit and the Wings will win. If Howard slumps, Ozzie will get his chance. It's really that simple... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedWings Gone Wild 6 Report post Posted January 2, 2010 Osgood's obviously going to get games in, and nobody is asserting anything to the antithesis... why you persist in posting these Tolstoy-esque rants (that you then say the team, babcock, and everyone else already knows anyways) is beyond me. The discussion has been on who should be getting the larger share of the load, and your persistence in naming the 6-5 record does nothing to enhance your argument, if anything it shows how little we can afford to needlessly play a struggling goaltender, since even a goaltender doing well is yielding average results with this team, imagine the record a struggling goalie would produce... That's not to say that Osgood would continue to struggle if given more starts... the nature of the record is more a result of the way our players have been playing, and how shorthanded we are. Simple as that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedWings Gone Wild 6 Report post Posted January 2, 2010 (edited) double post. Edited January 2, 2010 by RedWings Gone Wild Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outsider 42 Report post Posted January 2, 2010 To be fair, I don't agree with the comments of the guy you are arguing with Vladifan... but a quick glimpse through the thread will show you plenty of posts with Legacy/Hasek and other goalies of the past being bashed in favor of Osgood. Whoa.....my "bashing" of Legace is completely justified and, if you've been around these parts long enough - absolutely NOTHING new from me. Your argument that it was the Team who lost that Round is not quite accurate. It may not have been ALL goaltending....but.... Unlike the OTHER instances you mention, 99-00 and 00-01, the loss to Edmonton was the ONLY time in recent history that goaltending was the PRIMARY reason for an early Round exit for the Wings. And it was. You'd better believe it was. And for you to sit there and deny that fact is just simply dishonest. Legace lost his freakin' mind once the Play Offs began. You could see it. And the Oil could smell it. Babcock came right out and said it, himself. Holland came right out and said it. LEGACE came right out and said it. As for "bashing" Hasek......well.... As puckloo39, (waves to loo!!!!) can attest, I am NOT the biggest Hasek fan, but..... The man is a Legend. And one of the best goaltenders to ever play the Game. At any Level. In Any League. In any Era. Hell....he's one of the best OVERALL PLAYERS to ever play the Game. Having said that..... The man was also bat-s*** crazy when it came to coming out of the net, whether to play the puck, or otherwise. And while some of the results were legendary, (see the hit on Gaborik....), some of them were ALSO legendary FAILS. It was one of the few foibles in his Game. Roy suffered similarly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icesurfer 75 Report post Posted January 2, 2010 For the rest of the regular season Babcock will play the hot goalie until that goalie falters and then he switches. Come playoff time Osgood will start and play until he really falters. Babcock has no qualms about switching goalies or sticking to the hot goalie. At any rate this will probably be Osgood's last year with the Wings, but that depends on whether he falters in the playoffs.... if he does he is gone.... if he manages to take the Wings to the finals again they may give him one more year. Howard is ready to be top goalie in the regular season next year, regardless. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedWings Gone Wild 6 Report post Posted January 2, 2010 (edited) Whoa.....my "bashing" of Legace is completely justified and, if you've been around these parts long enough - absolutely NOTHING new from me. Your argument that it was the Team who lost that Round is not quite accurate. It may not have been ALL goaltending....but.... Unlike the OTHER instances you mention, 99-00 and 00-01, the loss to Edmonton was the ONLY time in recent history that goaltending was the PRIMARY reason for an early Round exit for the Wings. And it was. You'd better believe it was. And for you to sit there and deny that fact is just simply dishonest. Legace lost his freakin' mind once the Play Offs began. You could see it. And the Oil could smell it. Babcock came right out and said it, himself. Holland came right out and said it. LEGACE came right out and said it. As for "bashing" Hasek......well.... As puckloo39, (waves to loo!!!!) can attest, I am NOT the biggest Hasek fan, but..... The man is a Legend. And one of the best goaltenders to ever play the Game. At any Level. In Any League. In any Era. Hell....he's one of the best OVERALL PLAYERS to ever play the Game. Having said that..... The man was also bat-s*** crazy when it came to coming out of the net, whether to play the puck, or otherwise. And while some of the results were legendary, (see the hit on Gaborik....), some of them were ALSO legendary FAILS. It was one of the few foibles in his Game. Roy suffered similarly. lol... as if my post was in any way complimenting or condemning the bashing of other goaltenders... it merely pointed out that, unlike what the poster stated, the bashing was happening.. As is the norm in this thread you tirelessly expound upon a meaningless and unnecessary point. Kudos. Edited January 2, 2010 by RedWings Gone Wild Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outsider 42 Report post Posted January 2, 2010 Howard is playing great right now so Babs is going to play him as much as possible until his performance drops. Why does that require so much debate on here? If Howard continues to play like he is now, Ozzie will sit and the Wings will win. If Howard slumps, Ozzie will get his chance. It's really that simple... That is where you and I disagree, chris......vehemently. Howard playing "like he is now" was good enough to go 6-5 against the softest part of the schedule, and against some of the worst Teams in the League. As I previously stated, he racked up 4 of those 6 Wins against the Rangers, the Ducks, the Jackets, and the Lightning. The only Wins he had against anything even COMPARABLE to what's coming up on the schedule were against Phoenix and Colorado. And let's face it....as good as YOU and zack think Phoenix and Colorado are..... They're not exactly San Jose. Or Washington. Or Pittsburgh. Or Chicago. As a matter of fact, the only Team comparable to any of THOSE Teams that Howard has faced has been.....Chicago. On the second night of back-to-back Games for Chicago With Chicago having faced San Jose the night before. After a night where the 'Hawks exhausted themselves taking 47 shots against Nabokov, while holding the Sharks to FOURTEEN shots against Huet. At Home. With a rested Wings Team in front of him. Motivated to avenge a whitewashing from the previous meeting. On a night where his Team outshot, and outplayed the 'Hawks for most of the evening. The result? That "great" performance earned another 0-3 LOSS. Same as the last time the Wings faced off against Chicago. I'll ask again.....considering that Howard's "great" performances were "great" enough to earn a SIX AND FIVE record against primarily CRAPPY Teams..... What in BLUE HELL makes you think that him "playing like he's playing" is going to translate into success against BETTER Teams, during a TOUGHER schedule.....spent mostly on the road? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outsider 42 Report post Posted January 2, 2010 At any rate this will probably be Osgood's last year with the Wings, but that depends on whether he falters in the playoffs.... if he does he is gone.... if he manages to take the Wings to the finals again they may give him one more year. Osgood is signed through the end of the 2010-2011 Season. Howard is ready to be top goalie in the regular season next year, regardless. Of course he is. You can tell just by his performance in his first 30'ish NHL Games. Why....just look at Theodore. And Raycroft. And Lehtonen. And Toskala. And LeClaire. And Hiller. And Mason..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites